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Thread: Ninjutsu newaza?

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    vadrip Guest

    Default Ninjutsu newaza?

    Does Ninjutsu have in depth newaza randori comparably to say judo, sambo and bjj?

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    Are you sure Richard?Then again I think that would all depend upon whom is teaching.There are Newaza in the latter part(around 2nd or 1st kyu..I think) of the Genbukan Kyu level...NOT MUCH but ...a start.Then again I am referring to Genbukan Ninpo Bugei and not what most associate with the term "Ninjutsu".Ninpo,as we both refer to it is a much HIGHER "form" when referring to these arts,as compared to the common preception of the public view of what is usually known as "Ninjutsu".To better answer this question look at ANY Ashida Kim book and Richard IS RIGHT ON THAT END.However in the Bugei taught by Tanemura Sensei there are NEWAZA.What can be done sitting(on the ground)can also be done standing for an example.This can go both ways in the form of Henka.For the most part I would have to say that almost ALL KORYU have NEWAZA or they would not be "COMPLETE" as a bujutsu art.In any of the "Kans" there are newaza...in specific ryuha.They are very good and the focus in training is not only on technique but also character,spirit,and respect.Richard has "a point though"!NO Ninpo school has a focus on Newaza like BJJ,or Sambo,etc.However ask this...what will you do if attacked by MORE than one person?If your on the ground..more than likely you stand a very good chance of "going underground" in a real life and death situation.Ninpo/Ninjutsu is an all around fight system not just a sport fighting system made famous by it's ground fighting skills.This might not be what you are looking for ...but to each his own I always say.don't rely on the internet to help,judge for yourself.

    John Hamilton

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    Default Re: Ninjutsu newaza?

    Originally posted by vadrip
    Does Ninjutsu have in depth newaza randori comparably to say judo, sambo and bjj? [/B]
    I think both Mr. Ray and Mr. Hamilton are right. There is newaza but there is no newaza randori built into the training as it is in judo, bjj, etc. Although individual teachers may decide to do randori as a training (and sometimes a testing) tool, it is generally not as big a part of the training as it is in judo, etc. In the Jinenkan in particular, I've been advised that randori (in the 'free-est' sense, not just introducing variables into kata geiko) shouldn't be engaged in until after shodan.

    Thanks,
    Eric Baluja

    Fukai kiri teme mo motenai kaku reru daizan.

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    Hello freinds,
    I believe newaza is misunderstood by most people(By saying this,I am not implying that I am 100 percent correct,however this is MY take on the subject.).I believe that correct Taihenjutsu skills keep you off the ground:such as rolling,rebounding,and breakfalls because as basics you are taught a breakfall,then a roll,then you combine them = nagare(flow).However there are skills such as Sutemi waza,where one actually throws themself at the ground,but remember UKEMI and NAGARE.I believe in such a period of time as the Warring States Period,if you were thrown,pushed ,or pulled down and could not excercise Correct Taihenjutsu skills your chances of dying were extremely high.Also on a logical side it would be extremely difficult to get back to your feet(Esp.if surrounded by many enemies)if you were wearing armour.This is not to say Kihon Waza can't be done from the ground,because it can,however I believe the reason for Taihenjutsu is so it doesnt have to be.
    This is an interesting topic though,any takers?
    Mickey Mullins(BJK)

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    Thumbs up

    Dear Forum,
    Sincere greetings. I just have a quick comment on randori in general. At the last Tai Kai in Colorado, Tanemura sensei taught us that a particular randori method of Takagi Yoshin ryu was derived from sumo. For example holding the belt of the opponent with the right arm on the inside and the left on the outside, from there you would try to nage the other person the the ground. In contrast Soke also mentioned that you did not see alot of the same grappling as in judo because in older ryu-ha training that two people would not generally be hanging on to each others jacket for a long period of time before a technique to their arm was executed quickly. Soke did teach newaza techniques at the last Tai Kai, however they primarily focused on escape instead of attack, such as escape from juji gatame.
    The Takagi Yoshin ryu randori is great fun, a good cardiovascular workout and helps build a strong waist.

    sincerely yours,
    Brian Hodges
    Renshi
    GWNBF/KJJR
    Fudoshin Dojo-cho

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    there is no randori in Bujinkan.

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    Hi Guys
    Everyone is missing a very importantant point. Where did BJJ come from. The same roots as Ninpo.
    And a big problem is that a lot of Ninpo people feel they need to train BJJ to enhance their Newaza skills.

    There is very much Newaza and in "older days" a whole lot of randori. Just read Tanemura Sensei's Ninpo secretes to hear about the injuries he got from randori work.

    The big problem today is that part of the training has been completely left out. So for the most part has proper throwing and locking fundamentals. Why, your guess is as good as mine.

    Kata work is important, but it MUST be balanced with randori to make the priciples of entering and off-balanceing work for each person.

    Have a super training day!
    Mark J. Speranza
    Dojo cho
    Academy of Martial Arts
    Shinken Bujutsu
    www.likarate.com
    info@likarate.com

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    Default randori in the bujinkan

    hi there
    somebody wrote: there is no randori in the bujinkan...
    well, I think the sentence should be change into " there is no randori in the bujinkan nowadays"

    As confirmed by people like noguchi sensei or shiraashi sensei there was a lot of randori back in the old days....
    so basically there was kihon happo over and over and over again and then randori..........

    well what happened with the randori ? never done in japan again, seldom done in a bujinkan dojo and the argument: too dangerous !!
    well, too dangergous concerning what ??? concerning discovering the
    thruth that one dreamland techniques arent so efficient as always thought whil working with a non resisting (mostly NOT MOVING) partner.......????

    just a few thoughts
    Stefan Marcec
    Zurich, Switzerland

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    Tradition is not a limiting factor to what a teacher can or cannot teach. Twenty years ago when I started my training, there was very little groundfighting at all. Today, it is taught by many teachers. Last year in Japan, Tanemura Sensei was teaching us randori in ground fighting situations during the instructor’s class.

    In regards to the traditional kata, there are some that do contain techniques that might be considered ground fighting, but these are mainly the jujutsu and jutaijutsu arts.

    For ninjutsu per se, I feel that one reason we don’t see very much of it in the classical training is that is was not a high priority at that time. Just like today, we don’t see BJJ doing much work against a sword.

    Muramatsu, a Bujinkan instructor in Japan has a very interesting set of ground fighting techniques and kamae that he teaches as part of his MyoFu An system.
    John Lindsey

    Oderint, dum metuant-Let them hate, so long as they fear.

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    "Stefan, it is still done in Japan. My instructor and half my dojo go to Japan 2-3 times a year and randori is still used, just not as much."


    Janty you speak of second hand information, sorry... I`ve been to Japan quite a few times and stayed also sometimes longer then just the today average "2 weeks"-bujin-tourist (nothing wrong with that!)
    So I KNOW that there is no such thing as randori, there are teachers like nagase shihan or nakadai shihan who do some form of "free attack" "free respond" but not as it was done back in the old days.......................................



    "Also, a lot of times people speak as if every Bujinkan dojo is the same."

    I didnt want to make the impression that i put all the dojo in one pot. sorry for this misunderstanding !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Stefan Marcec
    Zurich, Switzerland

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    Default Re: Ninjutsu newaza?

    Originally posted by vadrip
    Does Ninjutsu have in depth newaza randori comparably to say judo, sambo and bjj?
    Does Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu have in depth tachiwaza comparable to say, ninjutsu?

    The focus of ancient martial arts is different than the focus of modern sport-based arts, even those that have been developed in the "no-holds-barred" environment.

    I do believe that everyone should be familiar with BJJ newaza, because it is a very predominant style of fighting these days. And I don't mean looking at pictures in books, I mean grappling with people who know how to use it.

    If you're not used to BJJ and you play by their rules, you might just surprise yourself by getting tapped out rather quickly.

    But, make them play by OUR rules and you have a different story. Playing BJJ or judo by our rules opens up all kinds of suki in their defenses. For fun, throw in a rubber knife and see what happens. Experiment with it, BJJ is REALLY FUN!

    Oh yeah, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: Theory & Technique by Renzo Gracie and Royler Gracie is out, and I found it to be a really excellent reference book on the basics of their style of newaza. It's printed on really nice paper too.

    Honestly though, the whole "newaza in ninjutsu" horse has been beaten to death.

    You can do a search and find past threads on the same topic, on different occasions.

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    Originally posted by Shojin
    About the old Knife in groundfighting idea. I agree it is interesting, also very interesting to see what happens to a non-BJJ player when the BJJ man has the knife. The non-BJJ man STILL can't get loose, STILL gets submitted, and NOW he has to deal with a knife too!

    Also the moral/legal implications of using a knife on someone because they tackled you well... All to avoid what? Learning how to fight on the ground because it is not in your system? think about it...
    I had a discussion over the phone with a Bujinkan sandan about groundfighting, and he kept falling back on his Spyderco. Well dude, what about if you left it on your dresser? What about when you extend to cut and end up in juji gatame and now the BJJ guy has the knife? What about.... but I didn't get into it with him simply out of respect.

    At the same time, if you know how to use a knife against a BJJ player, they are at a serious disadvantage as long as they are holding you in dojime.

    Would I use a knife on a guy in my neigborhood who was wrestling with me? Probably not. It depends on whether my life was in danger or not.

    The reason I brought the subject up is because recently I was working on this same subject with an Army guy who told me that I wouldn't be able to get to my knife when he pulled me closer into his guard. Well, he pulled me in closer, I put a boshiken in his windpipe, he extended back out for the shrimp & bar, I retract my arm in and bam. There's the knife in my other hand, right by his kidney. I'm sure Royce or Royler might have whooped my ass in the same situation, but my point is about being familiar with the BJJ common responses.

    Just to be clear, this was from more of a combat perspective, rather than a "normal" self-defense situation. They are teaching BJJ-style newaza in the new Army Combatives, after all.

    This is not a Matt Larsen dis.

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    Originally posted by Shojin
    BTW, MR. Chan, I am not trying to sound challenging to your posts or opinions. i am just responding to some points that happen to be in your posts. I just don't know if this was clear. Got to be careful on these boards ya know

    Also BTW, a Knife changes EVERYTHING in any situation!

    And after you (people that is) learn how not to be caught by them and how they play the game, then as Ninpo people you should see MANY holes in their approach...

    Sometimes people are actually able to see the holes, but unable to actualize what they "know" this is where the sweat and hard work come in. Mat time!
    Sure, I didn't think you were challenging me in the first place. I think we are in agreement, actually. This is supposed to be a discussion board, right?

    Judo, BJJ are sports. So, what I'm saying is learn the rules. Then work on breaking the rules. Then you can use that knowledge to break their technique. With or without a knife.

    But like anything else in the martial arts, you will not gain the knowledge if you don't practice.

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    I liked the video and I believe Newaza training has plenty of merit.
    I want to point out however that I for one would not want to go toe to toe or on the ground with any twenty something year old guy in a 'real' street situation. I would do whatever was neccessary to get untangled and high tail it out of the area. Escaping from BJJ style holds in this instance would be very valuable. There's the rub. How much time do you devote to this type of training knowing that when it really counts you are not going to 'go for the submit' but rather escape and call the cops?
    Greg Caplinger
    Gekka Dojo
    GWBNF/KJJR

    "Shin-gi-tai-ichi"

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    Originally posted by Onmitsu
    I liked the video and I believe Newaza training has plenty of merit.
    I want to point out however that I for one would not want to go toe to toe or on the ground with any twenty something year old guy in a 'real' street situation. I would do whatever was neccessary to get untangled and high tail it out of the area. Escaping from BJJ style holds in this instance would be very valuable. There's the rub. How much time do you devote to this type of training knowing that when it really counts you are not going to 'go for the submit' but rather escape and call the cops?
    At our dojo, we train in newaza once a week. Practically every Friday we go through kihon happo, and then the basic groundfighting drills. And then we either work on new techniques from the ground, or we do two-minute newaza matches.

    If you are honestly very concerned about the BJJ/MMA types out there, I would say that you should at least train IN THEIR martial art to a level of basic proficiency (i.e. learning the mount, escaping the mount, guard, passing the guard, armbars, sweeps, chokes, etc.).

    If you've never trained in BJJ, you will probably be very surprised at how different from taijutsu it really is. You will probably also be surprised at how often you will develop openings for BJJ-style attacks in your taijutsu. However, I try to keep in mind that going from taijutsu to BJJ is almost always counterproductive unless something goes wrong, like you lose your balance for some reason.

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