Hapkido (Aikido), Hapkiyoosool (Aikijujutsu), & Daedong-ryu (Daito-ryu)

[Joseph Svinth]

Down in "Research" I have been asked technical questions about the historical relationship of Daito-ryu and hapkido that are much more technical than I am qualified to answer. And, not really wanting to have two separate threads going, if y'all would drop down there and take a look, I'd appreciate it.

Or as Master Po says to Grasshopper (or should have, if he didn't), sometimes the answer isn't knowing the answer, but knowing who to ask.

[Nathan Scott]

Hi Mr. Svinth,

Man, this is a hot topic recently. It is being discussed extensively at aikidojournal.com, of which I've been trying to take the time to sort through:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/For...ML/000003.html

Anyway, you mentioned it's down below in "Research Methods", right? What is the name of the thread?

Regards,

[Joseph Svinth]

The question was asked in a thread called "Research Sites" (which was the only active thread when I posted last night), and the question is based directly on the Aikido Journal thread you mention.

[Willun]

does Hapkido have any connections to Akijujutsu. Its seems like a lot of Hapkido moves are like sword moves are Aikido.

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by Willun
does Hapkido have any connections to Akijujutsu. Its seems like a lot of Hapkido moves are like sword moves are Aikido.

YAMANTAKA : I don't think so but, anyway, there's an excellent discussion in this site :
http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/For...ML/000003.html
by many aikijujutsu, aikido and Hapkido experts.
Good hunting

[glad2bhere]

Dear Erik:

I just finished fielding a question along these lines for another person and thought you would find the following information interesting. This is always a subject guarenteed to start a flurry of emails so have fun but be careful.

BTW: Check out that site on AIKIDO JOURNAL.com. Theres' a lot of good info there if I do say so myself.

"Now THAT is the $64 thousand dollar question for the ages!!! I wish I could give you some nice neat yes or no but life doesn’t always work that way. I will tell you what my research has found to date.

The American Hapkido Assn has published an interview with GM Choi and I believe it is still on their website. How about if we use this as a medium for discussing this, ‘kay?

According to the interview, there is no question that GM Choi went Japan when he was very young (8 or 9) and lived there until he was repatriated to Korea after the Second WW. The report is that while in Japan as a small boy at a Buddhist school, GM Choi came to the attention of OS Takeda of the Daito-ryu and stayed with him for the balance of his stay in Japan. So far this is not a problem. Lots of people were moved from Korea to work in Japan and from Japan to populate Korea at that time. GM Suh, in an interview even states GM Chois’ Japanese name (Yoshida Tatujutsu). When GM Choi came back to Korea he reports that all his documents associated with his years in Japan were stolen at a train station. No documents. GM Choi reported in his interview that he had mastered Daito-ryu aikijujitsu and so began teaching what he called “yu sool” or “yawara”.

Now, lets take this a step at a time.

1.) In order to MASTER Daito-ryu Aikijujitsu you need to be awarded a Menkyo Kaiden. There have only been three of these awarded in the Daito-ryu history and GM Choi is not recorded as one of them. Many, many more teaching licenses were issued by the Daito-ryu (Kyoju Dairi) but there is no record of one being issued to GM Choi under either his Korean or Japanese name. There are however, other Korean MA who are listed on the attendence lists in the archives of various factions of the Daito-ryu. There is even a tantalizing rumor that GM Chois’ name can be found in the rosters held by the Daito-ryu Kodokai or the Roppokai but these organizations tend to be very closed lipped about this matter (and anything else as well) and will not allow for an examination of their records.
2.) GM Choi represented himself as one of, if not THE student of OS Takeda, going so far as to say that he, Choi, accompanied Takeda all of Japan and even to Hawaii for a historic presentation in the 1930-s. No records. No one remembers this person. There are no pictures or newsclippings. Not in more than 30 years of “training” is there any record or memory of GM Choi serving in this capacity (or any other that I have been able to find).
3.) The teachings of Daito-ryu can be broken into three levels of sophistication beginning with ju-jitsu, moving to aiki-jujitsu and ending with aikijitsu. The techniques which were integrated into the Korean arts by GM Choi are only of the ju-jitsu level of sophistication. (Now there has been indications of aiki-jujitsu and aikijitsu level technique but this has not been traced to GM Choi and is very inconsistent. This could suggest introduction by another Korean national who also learned Daito-ryu but to a higher level of sophistication, or may be indicative a higher level of development by Korean MA independent of Japanese influence and inspite of the terrible Japanese occupation. Needs more study.)
4.) The teaching of Daito-ryu include Ken-jitsu (Japanese sword techniques) of the Ona Itto Ha Ken-jitsu style. There are also Jo (stick), Bo (staff) and knife as well. None of these weapons biomechanics have been identified with Hapkido except as a function of those arts already existing in Korea at the time of GM Chois repatriation. Hapkido practices weapons but after the fashion of traditional Korean weaponry. So one finds Kum-bop instead of Japanese Kendo, cane rather than jo, and Korean staff and spear instead of Japanese Bo. The practice of knife or short-sword has become a matter of personal selection much like the practice of rope or belt techniques. Also the rope techniques are more a function of snaring or entangling rather than binding.

So, where does that leave us.

COULD GM Chois have studied Daito-ryu? Certainly. He also could have taken one of the many seminars offered by OS Takeda and then focused on study in one of the lesser schools. Or he could have just picked-up odd bits during his many years in Japan. Who knows?

Did GM Choi master Daito-ryu? In my opinion, No. There is no documentation, there is no biomechanical evidence, and there is no curricular evidence.

Why does this historical position persist? Follow the money. Hapkido is big business with a minimum of 7 major and hundreds of minor organizations. Nobody is going to step up and say that the emperor has no clothes. And, be careful, those same people don’t want anyone else saying it either!


Now I know you are probably eye-sore reading all this babbling and its not my place to try to convince you one way or another. I just want you to consider ALL sides of the story. Nothing I have said here is anything that you can’t find out for yourself if you just dig a bit. In the meantime I want to mention (briefly, Honest) something you mentioned in your letter.

Just to keep things clear the emptyhand techniques didn’t “come from” the weapons anymore than the weapons techniques “came from” the emptyhand techniques. These techniques (armed and unarmed) share common biomechanics such that if you can perform a particular movement well with you body doing an emptyhanded technique, you will likewise do well performing that same movement with a weapon. A turning movement with a sword is a turning movement for a kick, is a turning movement for a throw, is a turning movement for a strike, yes?

The “entwining” techniques you mentioned (AKA “snaring”) are extant in Hapkido and from what I have been able to find in research may have been preparatory for binding techniques. "Snaring" whether by elbow, knee or ankle is a manipulation taught at BB level (for me, I teach it at first degree BB) along with the limited binding techniques I have been able to uncover. If you locate some of the material of the Daito-ryu you will occasionally find techniques which allow the defender to stand and clap their hands while the attacker is “magically” restrained on the floor. Nearly always there is a knee or ankle snare involved to lock the attackers’ arms behind and allow the defenders’ hands to be free for other duties (such as binding). "

Have at it.

Best Wishes,
Bruce W Sims
www,midwesthapkido.com

[Willun]

Thanks alot for your replys

[kadosu777]

I'm hukchu.

my grand teacher is Kim Yun Sang who lives in Kumsan at South KOREA( Hapkido 9 degree received from Choi Yiong Sul who is founder of hapkido)and 68 years old.
***** other Hapkido 9 degree from Choi Yiong Sul direct *****
Jang Jin il(newyork USA), Lim Hyung Soo(taegu KOREA)

if you want to see a original AiKi technique of Choi Yiong Sul, you can see from K.Y.S.

he is not use of name "hapkido" but "hapkiyusul" for name of Choi Yiong Sul's technique, because he likes old and origin style of Choi.

recently through open semminar in korea, many martial art researchers and martial art magazine 'MARS' (which is only Martial art zine in korea) have permitted his miracle aiki.

till now, he did't want to be uncovered his technique. but, recently a little chaged.

I have not yet to see any "aiki " in Hapkido.
in the world, many hapkido master exist. but nobody can show "aiki". it's only jujitsu.

but in spite of old age Kim Yun Sang showed "aiki" through open seminar and Korea TV.

many martial art researcher and expert permit his Aiki and a master from Daitoryu Seshinkan in japan who is researching about a root of hapkido have visit him last year, permit "it's Daitoryu". he said "I can't believe Choi who have learned Daitoryu by document, But through Kim Yun Sang Technique, I believe Choi".

GM Kim said despite many student learned hapkido from Choi, only a few student understood his deep technique.

People said "Choi learned a short time and only a jujitsu from Dakeda Sokaku"

But. IT'S A NOT REAL.

GM Kim Yunsang show many Aiki no jitsu including no touch Aiki.

=========================================
he have met Dakeda Minemuthu in hokkaido 1997.5.12.



*******Kim Yun Sang Aiki technique


** we make the home page(KOREAN) : http://www.hapkiyusul.com
[** H.P. data-room]

you can see some picture and movie file of hapkiyusul. we are making a English version of this H.P.

[**his video clip from TV documentanry]

[his example picture : it's not throw, this is flying technique]


[Choi Yiong Sul's flying technique in old seminar]

[Kevin73]

I don't really have much to add, I just saw this thread and thought it was soo weird. I was just flipping through one of my old issues of Blackbelt magazine and they had the interview with Choi in it, and I was going to post this exact question. Guess I don't have to now.

[Nathan Scott]

Hello,

It would be easy for anyone to say that their art comes from Daito ryu if they really wanted to.

Sokaku s. was giving seminars since the early 20th century. Ueshiba s. gave seminars, and gave his first open demonstration in 1957. Since that time, aikido has been photographed and filmed openly, free for all to see (and copy).

The evidence supporting formal study of Daito ryu in Korean arts is zero, and is unlikely. It is equally as likely that Sokaku s. went to Korea, studied Tae Kwon Do, and incorporated what he learned into his art.

The historical backgrounds of many Korean martial arts changes constantly.

As far as the photos, the person you are referring to is Takeda Munemitsu. However, I don't think he is affiliated with the Seishinkai - that one is Takeda Masanobu (the third person to incorrectly claim to be soke). In any event, Takeda Munemitsu is a distant relative of Takeda Sokaku, and had apparently received some kind of dan ranking under someone in Daito ryu. Now he is one of three claiming to be the soke of Daito ryu, and has travelled overseas representing himself as such. He does not seem to have much of a following, and is not respected by those within Daito ryu as a leader of any kind in the art. He is the one that gave the last ranks in "aikibudo" to Alain Floquet in France.

The photo provided above was taken in 1997, and shows that he was still using this title.

The kanban in the photo say:

(on the right)

"Daito ryu aikibudo, so-honbu cho - soke, TAKEDA MUNEMITSU".

and (on the left)

"Daito ryu aikijujutsu, (something about Takeda Sokaku, but the kanji it blurred out for some reason), soke TAKEDA MUNEMITSU".

Funny enough, the largest kanji on both kanban are that of Takeda's name, not the art's name.

Anyway, all that photo proves is that someone with no following who was misrepresenting himself allegedly went to Korea two years before his death.

There is another Takeda Munemitsu, who is the younger brother of Takeda Tokimune (previous headmaster of Daito ryu mainline). He incorrectly declared himself the soke of Daito ryu in 1990 or 1991 while Tokimune sensei was in the hospital.

This Takeda Munemitsu passed away in April, 1999 - two years after that photo, so it was probably not him.

I would not look for quotes given recently for insight into Korean martial arts history. I would look for the oldest quotes possible, and then look for evidence to support it. Until evidence is found, it is pointless to continue hashing out the same rumors repeatedly on all the forums.

The discussion that occured on aikido jounral (linked above) is the most comprehensive discussion I've ever seen on the subject. Please read all of that thread if you are interested in this subject.

No disrespect intended toward anyone.

Regards,

[Walker]

Would somebody involved in the Korean arts grow a backbone and quite believing the hype and the !!!!!!!!? Anyone who thinks that hapkido is Daito ryu should go to their nearest McDojang, stay there and quit bothering the rest of us - oh, and be sure to take plenty of dollars.
You can believe whatever you want, but don’t even try this stuff on anyone other than your most gullible friends.

:burnup:Most definitely the Evil Dougzilla :burnup:
(and probably Yamamoto possessed to boot ‘cause I need a scotch)

[kadosu777]

The historical backgrounds of many Korean martial arts changes constantly.
==> a few years ago, many people don't know Choi Yiong Sul. Many hapkido old master hide and deceive his all information in public. because they did'nt like that korean know hapkido's real origin where is not from Traditinal Martial Art. But at now many information is opened. so Many hapkido started of putting on Choi's photo at the main wall of Training place.

As far as the photos, the person you are referring to is Takeda Munemitsu. However, I don't think he is affiliated with the Seishinkai - that one is Takeda Masanobu (the third person to incorrectly claim to be soke).
==> I don't know a information that Takeda Munemitsu is affiliated with the Seishinkai.
Pesonally, I have a Seishinkai friends who is master of Seishinkai branch Dojo.

There is another Takeda Munemitsu, who is the younger brother of Takeda Tokimune (previous headmaster of Daito ryu mainline).
==> upper picture is Him. I heard he is the 4th son of Dakeda Sokaku.
Dakeda Tokimune's younger brother. my teacher visit him at hokkaido in japan 1997.
we thought he was the main line of Daitoryu in japan. at that time, we did't know a problem of succession of Daitoryu. when we contacted him again for more interaction, he was dead at 1999.

He incorrectly declared himself the soke of Daito ryu in 1990 or 1991 while Tokimune sensei was in the hospital.
==> http://att.co.kr/~kadosu/M_soke.jpg


This Takeda Munemitsu passed away in April, 1999 - two years after that photo, so it was probably not him.
==> it's him. japan martial art magazine "VISION" visited Kim Yun Sang last year. this picture and others opened their Zine at 06.2000.

Until evidence is found, it is pointless to continue hashing out the same rumors repeatedly on all the forums.
==> we do not find any document evidence. but we can find a possibility of THE EVIDENCE by Aiki Technique of Kim Yun Sang.

The discussion that occured on aikido jounral (linked above) is the most comprehensive discussion I've ever seen on the subject. Please read all of that thread if you are interested in this subject.
==> I had seen that thread and had participated in that old threads are disappeared.

a information of some interviews of Choi that is open are incorrect.
Example : he was born at 1899. but 1904 by some interviews, some articles, and aikido encyclopedia. BlackBelt Magazine is not perpect. more information about Choi exists in korea. I can't interprete this all (korean lang -> English).

if you know Japanese, Please read this article of "VISION"

2000.6
Subject : fantastic technique of Hapkido Founder, Choi Yiong Sul being successed by Kim Yun Sang
http://www.hapkiyusul.com/technote/p...=992016203.jpg
http://www.hapkiyusul.com/technote/p...=992065626.jpg
http://www.hapkiyusul.com/technote/p...=992067665.jpg
http://www.hapkiyusul.com/technote/p...=992067983.jpg
http://www.hapkiyusul.com/technote/p...=992070639.jpg

[Dan Harden]

More Korean daydreams and marketing.
Their constant changing of their stories and arts has been a laughing stock for so long it is hardly worth discussing. Do you know how many claim they teach grappling now? Oh, so sorry, "they always had it." Shhhsh its a secret- stenciled on their windows.

If throwing peanut butter became the next fad in the arts- you would see the "ANCIENT art of Korean peanut butter throwing. And if it came from Russia they would have a mystery all set up for ya.......
In the days of Yore (Yore was just after "ancient times" and right before national advertizing called "the good old days")
They had an old Korean explorer who wandered to Russia to be adopted by Vladimer the great, the master of peanut butter throwing, and don't ya know- our Korean friend was destined to succeed his peanut butter master but alas........these poor, poor, Koreans. No one likes them dontcha ya know, so in the fullness of time our intrepid wanderer had to return home and keep hidden the peanut butter techniques he so arduously learned.
That is... until it became popular
Once its a fad...WHAM!! its on every window and in every add across the land,
So much for ancient Korean traditions


You know, most people don't like martial arts in movies. I love em. It keeps all the martial art "tourists" flocking to the mcDojos.
I say Lets buy tickets and hand them out to the kiddies for all the new movies;
"Jumping tigers- flying bears" or "Leaping monkeys"
whatever...

That way all the youngins will tell their friends and mothers;
"I want to do the Kung fu." They can wrap their knuckles on steel and ruin their hands, and they can leap and play hopskotch while they have shiny aluminum weapon thingys flopping and spinning around their heads. And then MAYBE they will stop trying to jump on Daito ryu.

Theres gotta be another another Jackie chan in silk pajamas somewhere that these peope will worship.

Dan
woosh woosh....why there goes another martial artist right there....woosh woosh...what? You can't see him.
Look look...see the black trimmed pajamas with all the badges on it..woosh woosh.....oops
You must have missed him! Hes up in the trees....pruning
woosh....woosh

[Nathan Scott]

Hi all,

It sounds like Dan got ahold of some of that Ron Duncan on video. I'm still waiting for my autographed photograph - hope my cover isn't blown.

Anyway, I know this kind of thing pushes a button in many of us, but we need to keep the discussion "friendly", and "treat fellow members with respect". It may be an old subject for many of us, but there are some who are asking these questions for the first time.

I could have restrained myself a bit more too, but I just got ahold of an original copy of "Naginata at its Best", featuring Jill Crandall. It was on sale for $9.95 (usually $29.95)! I guess most people don't know the comedic value of this work yet. Mrs. Crandall is a Korean martial art stylist ("certified black belt instructor") who literally destroyed the art of naginata in her authoritative publication of this tape back in 1990. While being very funny, it is also a bit upsetting (to me at least, being a student of ligitimate naginata). I was in kind of a bad mood along these lines when this thread popped up again here.

**

As far as the "proof being in the technique" of Hapkido, I respectfully disagree. There may be similar applications of jujutsu, and aiki as found in other arts like aikido and judo, but they do not have aiki as used in the aiki branches of Daito ryu. This usage of aiki is very hard to learn, and cannot be learned without substantial direct instruction, which is clearly missing from Hapkido.

That's not to say that Hapkido (or other Korean arts) are not good arts, just that there is no inner-application of Daito ryu (stuff that is not found in books and videos) to indicate that direct instruction in Daito ryu - especially aiki - had taken place previosu to the founding of Hapkido.

Again, unless new EVIDENCE is found to support the theory, it is useless to GUESS about what connections there might be.

I could easily make an argument that principles found in all Japanese arts can be found in Chinese arts, and as such perhaps all of them are Chinese in origin. You can't proove me wrong, but I can't prove myself right either. It is simply "unlikely".

Regards,

[kadosu777]

More Korean daydreams and marketing.

==> it's joking. ahthough I'm 3 degree of Hapkido and have trained for 15 years, I have other good job. Never am I interest in business through my martial art.

I only want to annouce "The truth of Hapkido".
many hapkido and choi's informations were distorted in internet and other sources in abroads. I found this forum recently.
personally I have researched the root of hapkido technique and history for many years.

someone said 'Hapkido is from ANCIENT art of Korean'. it's not true. EXACTLY hapkido is from Choi Yiong Sul.

why do you refer to "Ron Duncan on video"? have I ever sold anything? if I make some video, I'll supply at free by internet.
I am only concern about annoucing "Choi Yiong Sul" and his good technique exactly.

after 60's, most of new generated martial arts in korea rooted in "Choi Yiong Sul"'s technique. (Kido, Kooksool, hapkido, yiongmoodo, kookmoodo, combat art, self defence of taekwondo, ...,)
but their founders do not permit this influence. and said "Acient martial art from deep mountain...) in addtion, old Hapkido masters devaluated Choi's status.

Hapkido may be similar applications of jujutsu, and aiki as found in other arts like aikido and judo

==> it's right exactly. hapkido have one's biomechanical point. but it's different from origin technique of Choi.

but they do not have aiki as used in the aiki branches of Daito ryu. This usage of aiki is very hard to learn, and cannot be

learned without substantial direct instruction,

==>it's right exactly. hapkido is similar to jujitsu. most techniques of hapkido are joint locking and breaking.

which is clearly missing from Hapkido. just that there is no inner-application of Daito ryu (stuff that is not found in books and videos) to indicate that direct instruction in Daito ryu - especially aiki - had taken place previosu to the founding of Hapkido.

==>it's right exactly.
in hapkido video and book, we can not find any aiki concept.

I don't agree with "clearly missing".
I have met a few one generation students who have learned direclty more than 5 years from Choi.
their biomechanical point and application and variation is differ from TODAY hapkido.
my conviction is that next generation more and more forgot the origin biomechanical point, feeling through my experience for

15 years and my personal research. at now, Hapkido produce masters of 5 or 6 generation from choi.
most master show only jujitsu technique. I can't find aikijujitsu(a little found today), aiki-jitsu(never).

GM Kim Yun Sang show the origin technique of Choi, other biomechanical point and Aiki.
after TV broadcasting about Him, many korean martial artist insisted it was trick.
so he hold a open seminar in korea, seoul.

after this seminar, many researcher and master of martial art permited his AiKi.
I was not able to find his technique from other martial arts except daitoryu aiki or YioshinKan shioda.

although I have experienced his Aiki, I can't explain exactly.
he is very small(maybe 160 cm), very light, and 68 years old. but I can't resist his aiki.
other strength youngman, musle power man are same. he use anything. it's not power and do not incline some direction(Hapkido

and judo using this). only my center of body is up-down or disappeared during his some activation.
my daitoryu friends did'nt believed my mention. but when he see and experienced his technique on visiting korea, he permit my mention.

You can't proove me wrong, but I can't prove myself right either. It is simply "unlikely".

I respect for your opinion. "unlikely", "likely" is not important for me.
I am only announcer of the root of hapkido.

GM choi teached his student only 15 technique per a year.
some old master in hapkido have learned only 1 ~ 2 years from choi and attached other martial art technique(chinese martial

art, or kicking from taekkun, or new making and variation technique)
it was a BIG, BIG, BIG mistake in hapkido history.
at 60's and 70's, many hapkido masters are born speedly in spite of short training.
at that time, many hapkido masters are abroad in a world with joint locking, fall-down and kicking.
TODAY, some korean younger masters are persuiting old good and aiki-style biomechanical concept from Choi.
I am one of them.

*********** Choi's one old picture ********