Hapkido (Aikido), Hapkiyoosool (Aikijujutsu), & Daedong-ryu (Daito-ryu)

[kadosu777]

Dear : Bruce

In order to MASTER Daito-ryu Aikijujitsu you need to be awarded a Menkyo Kaiden. There have only been three of these awarded in the Daito-ryu history and GM Choi is not recorded as one of them.
Many, many more teaching licenses were issued by the Daito-ryu (Kyoju Dairi) but there is no record of one being issued to GM Choi under either his Korean or Japanese name.

==> it's true.

There are however, other Korean MA who are listed on the attendence lists in the archives of various factions of the Daito-ryu.

==> it's true
http://att.co.kr/~kadosu/daito_korean.JPG

There is even a tantalizing rumor that GM Chois?name can be found in the rosters held by the Daito-ryu Kodokai or the Roppokai but these organizations tend to be very closed lipped about this matter (and anything else as well) and will not allow for an examination of their records.

==>rumor is only rumor. but some people said as if it is true.
till now, nobody have ever found any record about Choi in Japan.

2.) GM Choi represented himself as one of, if not THE student of OS Takeda, going so far as to say that he, Choi, accompanied Takeda all of Japan and even to Hawaii for a historic presentation in the 1930-s. No records. No one remembers this person. There are no pictures or newsclippings. Not in more than 30 years of “training?is there any record or memory of GM Choi serving in this capacity (or any other that I have been able to find).

==> today, it's true. but few people persuade and research deeply about history of Choi.
only we heard some scrap from Choi's interview, some hapkido books, old hapkido zines and Stanley Pranin's allude to Choi's history.
I want to be many researchers and historian of martial art taking a interest about this.
if someone have interviewed with Choi, please open interview audio file by internet.

3.) The teachings of Daito-ryu can be broken into three levels of sophistication beginning with ju-jitsu, moving to aiki-jujitsu and ending with aikijitsu.
The techniques which were integrated into the Korean arts by GM Choi are only of the ju-jitsu level of sophistication.

==>GM Choi did not intergate his techinque in hapkido. some his students who learned only 1 ~ 2 years, have integrated and transformed Choi's technique. this is diffrence of hapkido(mordern style) and hapkiyusul(origin style).

Now there has been indications of aiki-jujitsu and aikijitsu level technique but this has not been traced to GM Choi and is very inconsistent.

==> many hapkido masters are developing new hapkido technique. it's possible in hapkido. but, hapkiyusul is traning only old techniques. some hapkido master who don't know the word "AIKI" uses a 'aiki concept' in one's technique but it's not from Choi.
I think GM Choi teached Aiki concept. but a few student understand this.

This could suggest introduction by another Korean national who also learned Daito-ryu but to a higher level of sophistication, or may be indicative a higher level of development by Korean MA independent of Japanese influence and inspite of the terrible Japanese occupation. Needs more study.)

==>althought technical origin is from Choi, a higher level of development by Korean MA independent of Japanese influence is today HAPKIDO and KookSul, etc.
Choi's technique is from Daitoryu, Japan. it call "hapkiyusul(aikijujitsu)" or "yawara", "hapkiyukeonsul" or "hapkisul(aiki no jitsu) in korea.

4.) The teaching of Daito-ryu include Ken-jitsu (Japanese sword techniques) of the Ona Itto Ha Ken-jitsu style.

==> in Choi's teaching, Ken-jitsu was the Ona Itto Ha Ken-jitsu style.
old Aikodachi Picture of Choi's Dojo in korea.
http://att.co.kr/~kadosu/kendo_1970.jpg

There are also Jo (stick), Bo (staff) and knife as well. None of these weapons biomechanics have been identified with Hapkido except as a function of those arts already existing in Korea at the time of GM Chois repatriation.

==> Jo (stick), Bo (staff), Ken technique existed in choi's technique with shuriken
and jutte technique but in hapkido, a nunjaku, a crook cane, a sickle, a fan technique were from other source or developed spontaneously.

Hapkido practices weapons but after the fashion of traditional Korean weaponry. So one finds Kum-bop instead of Japanese Kendo, cane rather than jo, and Korean staff and spear instead of Japanese Bo.

==> it's real of Hapkido in korea. in general, korea dislikes japan, many hapkido people in korea did'nt want to accept Choi's influence about hakido. many recreated and remaked matial art that is hapkido style come from.
Hapkido is mordern martial art and are continuously developing. but some old style master teach Choi's original technique with persistence till now.

The practice of knife or short-sword has become a matter of personal selection much like the practice of rope or belt techniques. Also the rope techniques are more a function of snaring or entangling rather than binding.

==> maybe, rope and belt technique is from choi, but slicely deformed.


############ reference of weapon technique ######### it's only my privite research.

(Daitoryu) ------------- (Hapkido)

Kenjutsu ------------- Kumsool or Kumbub(Ona Itto Ha Ken-jitsu style)

Kumiuchi ------------- KieokKum(Ona Itto Ha Ken-jitsu style)

Sojutsu ------------- Jang Bong Sul

Wakizashijutsu ------------- * TODAY only a few (Ona Itto Ha Ken-jitsu style)

Tantojutsu ------------- * included in Dan Kum Sul, Dan bong sul

Tessenjutsu ------------- * included in Dan bong sul

Shuriken jutsu ------------- * TODAY, very rare (because of prohibit from police)

Bojutsu ------------- Jang Bong Sul, Dan Jang Sul

Toraejutsu ------------- PobakSul (origin is used to a iron chain in korea)

Juttejutsu: ------------- Dan Bong Sul

Today, some hapkido dojos are training Korea Traditional Kumsool instead of Daitoryu Kenjitsu.

in korea, knife ( more than 20 cm)and sword are illegal weapon that must be enrolled in Police Office. So, KenJitsu is not spread in korea.

[hkdtodd]

I just got back from my yearly trip to Korea and noticed this thread. Very interesting!

There will always be arguments and disagreements about Hapkido,Hapki Yu Sool,Yawara,Dai Dong Ryu Hapki Yu Sool.

I do understand why there is so much negativity around Hapkido simply because most of what is called Hapkido IS NOT. GM Lim just laughs when I bring him American MA mags, with all the so called 7th,8th,9th and even 10th dans it really is a sad joke for Doju Choi's Hapkido. The Mudo that Doju Choi taught DID AND STILL DOES have Aiki (Hapki). According to Grandmaster Lim,Hyun Soo Choi had many students but most only trained with him for 1,2 -5 years and many of those only part time so it only makes sense that the true essence of Hapkido could be missed and being missed why not add a few more kicks or weapons tech. to make up for ones lack of understanding!!

GM Lim also stated that Choi would only teach around 15 tech. or principles for the first year. Hapkido is a system of principles not just individuale techniqes. In the Jungki Kwan there are 15 tech. for white belt and I had the privilege to see GM Lim demonstrate those tech. in there purity with a full measure of Hapki and it is really hard to explain, you just have to see it and feel it for yourself. GM Lim will be coming to the Northeast next September for some seminars in Hapki and Guhap/Iai and special training sessions and I strongly encourage everyone who is interested in Aiki/Hapki and swordsmanship to make it up here to NH to take part in this whether you doubt or beleive that Hapkido decended from Daito Ryu or not. Hapki/Aiki is or is not, no matter what one says.

Just my humble opinion
Todd L. Miller
US Director Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.

[kadosu777]

Dear Todd

I'am glad to meet you.
In korea, I heard about JungGiKwan at Taegu.
He has good technique and mind I heard.
at now, the people who received 9 degree from Choi Young Sul Dojunim are only three "Jang chil il", "Kim yun Sang", "Lim Hyun Soo". it's truth of hapkido.

recently G.M. Kim yun sang opened his aiki in public(Broadcast, Magazine, seminar...).
I think these three direct students is announced at abroad and in korea. resultly, we must upgrade status of Choi Dojunim each other. if you come to korea again, contact me. I'll invit you in my martial art space "Yiong Sul Kwan".

thanks for reading

[kadosu777]

this is new video clip.
I made twp short video clip from documntary.
G.M. Kim Yun Sang Video Clip 1
G.M. Kim Yun Sang Video Clip 2

[edg176]

Hello,

I've followed this thread for a while, and although I only practiced Hapkido for four years, I have a few ideas about the whole origin question that I haven't seen aired anywhere. Here goes. I should add that I don't practice Hapkido any more. I've been reading a lot of nonsense here about "traditional Korean weapons" and it makes me ill. All I can say is that if the "traditional Koreans" practiced weapons the way I've seen them practiced it's surprising there are any Koreans alive today at all.

The upper ranks learned the short stick (like under 14 inches) and cane mostly. Now I know some people claim the cane is a "traditional" Korean weapons, but personally I suspect it comes from the Shinto-muso-ryu tanjo techniques that Meik Skoss has commented about on E-budo. Why? My theory is that it came to Korea during the Japanese occupation, since at that time a Japanese "gentleman" in western dress might carry a walking stick as a handy weapon while abroad. Maybe the Japanese taught some Koreans who just subsumed it under the "Hapkido" banner. I really would like to see someone perform some SMR tanjo kata so I could compare them, but that's my suspicion as to the origin.

As far as the short stick goes, one of my friends who was with an International Hapkido federation school showed me the moves he learned for two short sticks and it looked like a sai kata from one of Richard Kim's kobujutsu books...

From what I saw of the techniques as taught at our school they were waaaaaay too slow to apply with a short stick, especially at short range. There's too much windup, and it's unnecessary with a stick that short when you can use the wrist. On the other hand if the techniques were developed with an iron bar (jutte?) in mind, I think that it would work.

Neither the cane nor the short stick really seem to come from the same source--they seem like add ons to the unarmed component. I think it's possible that the Japanese police in Korea used the jutte and the tanjo and the Koreans picked it up from there. I never saw any drills to teach "aliveness" or striking skills with the weapons and I think most people (aside from a few physical geniuses out there) would get their clock cleaned using those techniques the way we were trained.

Mostly we learned joint-locks, which and I say this from my experience sparring in eskrima, you will hardly ever get to use in a real situation, except incidentally. First you have to know how to hit and block, otherwise you can't survive to get the lock!

Frankly, compared to Kendo or the Filipino martial arts that I've seen the weapons in Hapkido are a joke.

With respect to the whole Daito-ryu/aiki thing goes the Hapkido that I saw was mostly just the self-defense katas from Judo (kime no kata and goshin jutsu) but applied against a combination front punch/ front kick or other striking attack. Actually the head instructor at our school was a judo guy from the beginning so maybe that's why. Very little standup randori, so that with a few talented exceptions no one had a clue. Including me. That's why I quit Hapkido and started Judo. We did spend some time rolling on the ground (again, from Judo), and that wasn't so bad.

The strikes were mostly from taekwondo, including the reverse punch and everyone's favorite, the deadly snap roundhouse. We were encouraged to do heavy bag work, which was not bad from the standpoint of an aerobic workout.

There were some "aiki" looking techniques but, with the exception of the head intstructor and his top student, the only reason anyone would fall is because they jumped. There was no systematic teaching whatsoever of any real principles of movement, just a lot of essentially unconnected techniques.
Thus, no one could really apply anything, although damn, remembering it now it looked really great in demos.

Now I saw some guys from LA who practiced with us, and
they sparred a lot, but only kicking and punching. They weren't too bad, but again, lots of spinning kicks and flashy hand techniques. Not much grappling or joint locks.

If you look at the backgrounds of the guys who started teaching Hapkido in the U.S., they had backgrounds in judo, tkd and kendo. I think that was the reason that they had such a reputation as fighters in the 70's when no one was cross training. However, for some reason (and I have a pretty dark suspicion about the reason) the later students learned less and less.

Look at the weapons for example. If you had a lot of sparring time in kendo you would learn how to control range. Then when someone handed you another weapon (like a cane or a stick) you could learn the locking techniques pretty quick and then apply them in the striking framework you had from kendo. Without that experience it would be hard to apply the locks.

Same with a lot of the jujutsu/aiki techniques. If you had a heavy judo background you'd know how to grapple already and it wouldn't be too hard, I think to learn how to throw someone in a way that would dislocate their shoulder, for example.

On the whole, I have not been impressed with Hapkido, since I think that the training methodology is lacking. That is, the orignial Korean instructors to come to the U.S. (in my experience) didn't find a way to take all the tkd/judo/aikido/jujutsu/kendo stuff they knew and streamline it into a system. I'd be interested to see how the people who practice Mochizuki Minoru's system resolved that problem.

The Koreans had a good idea to combine weapons training, grappling and striking into one system, but personally I think that the mixed martial arts people do a lot better job, particularly people like the Dog Brothers, Shootwrestling, the Gracies and others. The Koreans had a shot at it in the 70's, but they blew it. I should add that the original instructors and their first generation of students from the seventies that I saw were very good, in some cases exceptional.

I watched people spend years and years struggling to learn and still having little to show in terms of practical application. Bottom line--as far as I've seen, Hapkido is a tremendous waste of time and I wish I'd just started with Judo, in dojo that also teaches the self-defense part or at a place like Cahill's where they do judo and Danzan-ryu. I'd recommend others do the same.

Tim Fong

[hkdtodd]

Tim,

I understand your feeling about Hapkido and it being ineffective in some ways. I too was ready to give up on Hapkido until I found a Grandmaster that trained with the founder (Doju Nim Choi, Yong Sool)from 1964 until he passed away in 1986.

All things called Hapkido ARE NOT the same. Many of those involved with Aikido & Aiki-Jutsu claim that Hapkido does not have Aiki and I will agree most Hapkidoins in fact do not understand this concept but there are MANY Aikdoins and Aiki-Jutsu practioners who have the same problem. There are however some Hapkidoins and some Aikidoins who do understand Aiki/Hapki.

My point is that Aiki/Hapki are very difficult concepts and just like your not going to go into McCdonalds or Burger King to find a fine piece steak, your not going to just look at a sign that says traditional Hapkido and find it.

I have seen and trained with people from many styles of Hapkido and Have found 1 that teaches the Hapkido that Choi,Yong Sool taught. I know there are a few others such as Kodosu and GM Kim who understand the meaning of Hapki but there are only a few.

Saying Hapkido does not have any Hapki/Aiki at all is just plain NOT TRUE. I have seen it, felt it and studied it. It is there. I hope that when GM Lim comes to the USA next September that those truely interested in the truth of Hapki will come and see for yourself.

Take care
TM

[hkdtodd]

Kodosu,

You mentioned the Korean Martial Arts magazine MARS. Is GM Kims article in the 9/10 issue. I was able to pick it up while I was in Korea. Now I just need to have it translated into english.

Take care
Todd

[Brently Keen]

With all due respect and apologies for being repetitive, I just posted a similar response on AJ's BB:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/cgi-bin...&f=10&t=000086

The above video clips do not prove or suggest any connection between Choi and Sokaku Takeda. Nor do the techniques shown bear any resemblance to Daito-ryu aiki. These are the claims of most all teachers and styles descended from Choi that are always being disputed. To date there has been no evidence to back these claims.

Todd wrote:

"Saying Hapkido does not have any Hapki/Aiki at all is just plain NOT TRUE. I have seen it, felt it and studied it. It is there."

No disrespect intended to you or your teacher Todd, but I have studied Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu for some time now, and I have to disagree. I suspect that what you are referring to is in fact a "concept of aiki/hapki" that is no different than that found in aikido and many other styles. Daito-ryu aiki is another thing altogether, and that's what this debate has been all about.

Brently Keen

[hkdtodd]

Brently,

The concept of Aiki/Hapki is or is not. What I mean is you either have it or you do not. To say that Daito Ryu are the only ones who have Aiki is pretty arrogant and naive. I have seen many so called Daito Ryu people who did not have a good understanding of the Aiki concept. I think this problem is universal, not everyone will get it. Wheather you are from Aikido, Hapkido or Daito Ryu.

It seems to me that the Aikido,Daito Ryu people in general are just not willing to even entertain the thought of a Korean Martial Art being on the same level as the Japanese art of Daito Ryu, I could be wrong!? I think it is more the American practioners that have this we are the only ones attitude because the Koreans & Japanese seem to have a very good and respectfull attitude toward what is TRUE.

Just my thoughts
Todd

[edg176]

Todd,

Thanks for the info. I guess I should clarify my points.
I don't doubt there are very impressive high level people out there (hell I've seen a few) but my problem is they don't seem to transmit it to their students very well. I currently am back in the SF Bay Area and if GM Lim comes within driving distance of here I'll definitely check him out.

I should also clarify what I mean by "aiki." I'm talking about throws which use the opponents momentum or "blending" only and not momentum and leverage together. For example, most judo throws I've seen use leverage and momentum to throw the opponent, and I classify aiki techniques in my mind as using only momentum or pain from a joint-lock.

That said, when I see video of Ueshiba Morihei in action something entirely different that I don't understand is going on. I don't know what the heck that is, and I assume it's that "Daito-ryu aiki" we hear so much about.

Brently,

Do you think that is the Daito-ryu aiki that you're talking about? Is there some place in the SF Bay area where I could watch that kind of aiki, or is it a closed-door thing for the most part? I have to say honestly at first when I read some of your posts about Daito-ryu aiki I thought you were a really arrogant guy, but after watching the Ueshiba videos I'm convinced that you're probably right and something else is going on that I don't understand and for the most part no one in aikido really understands either, i.e. the thread "What did Ueshiba really know."


Everyone else,
Could someone who actually practices tanjojutsu weigh in on its possible transmission to Korea? Was someone teaching the SMR arts there during the occupation?

Thanks
Tim Fong

[Walker]

The point is not if there is any aiki laying about, Daito or otherwise, in Hap Ki [whichever]. The point is how many re-versions of history are we going to tolerate from Korean martial artists and more specifically, is the current tale about Sokaku Takeda and Daito Ryu more than merely laughable.
So far we haven’t seen anything technically or historically to support the story.
Perhaps Gen. Choi was serving a different Takeda in Japan who sold dry goods?

[Arman]

No "aiki" discussions please. Nothing will be solved or agreed upon on a BB. I can't feel your aiki through the internet (thank god), so let's just leave such discussions for the mat.

Sincerely,
Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Baltimore, MD

[Brently Keen]

Todd,

This has nothing to do with arrogance or naivete' or nationality. Except perhaps for those who continue to assert without evidence that their arts have what they do not. It's not a question of attitude or willingness, it is a question of truth, but you apparently don't want to admit it when you haven't even got a case to be made.

The facts are there is just no evidence to support either Choi or his student's claims to a connection with Sokaku Takeda. There isn't a shred or hint of truth to the notion that Choi lived with Sokaku. The various theories aren't even plausable. The technical evidence is also completely lacking, there just isn't any discernable traces of Daito-ryu aiki in any of the Hapki-arts.

You are right about one thing and that is that many people don't get it. But what most people are thinking about when they say "aiki/hapki" is very different than what Daito-ryu considers to be aiki. In Daito-ryu, aiki has a number of specific characteristics, that define what it is. If you can't demonstrate those characteristics then you obviously haven't got it, nor can you define what it is with any authority.

Please understand, I'm not talking about effectiveness here - many people are effective, many more are not. I'm talking about the characteristics of Daito-ryu aiki. Without those characteristics, it's not aiki, it's something else that you're choosing to call "aiki". From my perspective, that something else is not the real thing - because it's calling itself what it's not - it's not genuine, it's misrepresenting itself.

Let me give an example:

If I was a boxer who only uses my hands to strike, but started calling my punches holds - I might knock you out with my left right combo, but then if told everyone that was my Russian two-on-one (hey, I hit you twice), I'd be full of you know what. Boxing as a sport doesn't allow or teach such holds, and because everyone is familiar with boxing, everyone knows that. It'd be even worse if I said I learned my "Russian two-on-one" from Alexander Karalin, when I was a kid growing up in Russia, he sorta adopted me and took me in and taught me his stuff. But later all of Alexander's family, and friends, and coaches, military buddies, and opponents could never remember me, it'd be obvious that I was making it all up. Now let's say I start teaching seminars and advertising myself as a student of Alexander's, teaching his style of wrestling, but all my techniques resembled boxing techniques like jabs, hooks, and combos, and none were Olympic wrestling moves, it'd be obvious to anyone who knew anything about wrestling that I was mis-representing not only Alexander, but also the whole sport of wrestling. I doesn't matter how good I may be at what I do, I'm still far from having any wrestling moves in my repertoire and I'm even further from telling the truth.

Unlike wrestling and boxing not everyone is familiar with Daito-ryu aiki. Those who are, are much better at discerning the differences between it and other things.

Before I launch us all back into another aiki war, you should go back and read some of the old threads here. Aiki and what it is has been discussed ad nauseam.

Brently Keen

[Brently Keen]

Arman,

Watch out for Neil Y. His aiki and that of a handful of followers has been known to fly via high speed internet lines and knock some of us right on our kush's!

Brently Keen

[hkdtodd]

Brently,

Have you ever seen or trained with Choi, Yong Sool or any of his highest ranking students? ----------- I did not think so. So you cannot really say with any authority that Hapkido has somthing different than Daito Ryu as far as Aiki/Hapki.

I had to travel half way around the world to find true Dai Dong Ryu Hapkido/Taegu, Korea and as I said GM Lim will be in NH next September but but that is a loooooong drive. I assure it would be worth the trip and I would personally guarantee you would learn and be pleasantly surprized.

Todd