Hapkido (Aikido), Hapkiyoosool (Aikijujutsu), & Daedong-ryu (Daito-ryu)

[Dan Harden]

Todd

I live in Mass. I would be very interested in feeling this mans technique, and its similarities, or lack thereof, to Daito ryu first hand. Please let us know when he is coming.
I have been on the mats with Chiba, Yamada, Kannai, Hakko ryu teachers, Hapkido teachers dozens of Aikidoka etc. etc, and I have never felt anyone-anywhere- that feels like Daito ryu; except Daito ryu (the closest I have come was in a Koryu jujutsu) And my opinion is not for lack of trying, I searched for the similarities

I dont care to debate anyones definitions of Aiki.
One art may call very small circle jujutsu -"Aiki"
Others call >only< blending energy "Aiki,"
Still others will show you what "appears" to be a head to head crashing that is really a capturing as well as many blending technqiues and they call it "Aiki"
Still others call only the controlling of the interval, the forstalling of technqiue completions, and deceptive motions that capture the energy...."Aiki."
Whatever.
I am really addressing one point and one point only
What Daito ryu calls Aiki.

And mind you, I am not discussing effectiveness, there are any number of people in different arts who are able. Let me give an example: I am told that some Yanagi guys can really handle themselves -but I don't think that because they can handle themselves they are doing Goju ryu. They are doing Yanagi ryu-some; really really well.

I don't care to debate the effectiveness of your chosen art. And that isn't the point anyway. Hapkido people have claimed some rather incredible, and as yet unproven, connections to Sokaku. It seems to me that it is reasonable to expect that such claimed "lengthy and close contact" would have had a heavy enough influence on this Hapkido technique, to make it bear a very close resemblence to Daito ryu. After all even though Sokakus students went different ways-there is enough left to plainly see "the Daito ryu" in their Daito ryu.
I know of no one in Daito ryu who "sees" these similarities in Hapkido or others who have researched both who see the comparisons, nor is it something which I have yet to see personally.
Trust me when I tell you, you can go from one style of Daito ryu to another and you will see things in common that are inescapable. Yes there are different ways of doing things, but there remain certain glaringly obvious indicators of origin (which I will not discuss).
So far as I have seen Hapkido fails to deliver even the most basic building blocks of these similarites- building blocks upon which so much advanced technique is based. That is why I would love to feel it and have my eyes opened to another possibility.

Again , I am happy that you have found something effective and that you enjoy


Cheers
Dan

[hkdtodd]

I personally could care less who Choi, Yong Sool trained with but he claimed to have been a diciple of Sokaku for 29 or 30 years and being in Korea this claim would not have been of benefit to him due to the Koreans experience with the Japanese.

All I really know is that I have experienced Daito Ryu and many different styles of Hapkido and of all GM Lim has somthing no other that I have seen has.

Dont get me wrong I have a great deal of respect for Martial Truth, wheather you call it Aiki, Hapki or myki.

In my research I have been trying to boil down all the hype and grandios claims and get to the truth of the Martial Arts, Mainly Aiki Jujutsu and Hapkido and have found that the two arts are somewhat different but at there highest levels they are in fact the same.

I would love to attent any Daito Ryu training sessions or semminars if they are open to lowly hapkido folk (I say that with a smile and no disrespect).

Yours truely in the truth of the Mudo/Budo
Todd
US Director
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.

[kadosu777]

till visiting "Yiong Sool Kwan" in korea, My japan Martial art friends who is Sheshinkai Daitoryu master did't believe my comment. but, after visiting, he said "it's daitoryu".
and then, he reported this to "HIDDEN" - Japan Martial Art Magazine.

Never we can find any record of GM Choi in Japan.
RECORD is the best important point for histrian but we are different.

Higher Dan(8th, 9th, 10th) or Certificate is not proof of higer technique and skill of possessor.
if 10th degree master's skill is lower than 5th degree,
who want to learn from 10th degree?

technically Martial artist must classfy bad hapkido or good hapkido or good daitoryu or bad daitoryu ,being same to other art. I have experienced both Daitoryu and Hapkiyusul(old style hapkido).

despite of training general HAPKIDO for 15 years in seoul, from few years ago I am starting all over again HAPKIDO that is origin style in 'Yoing Sul Kwan'. the technical point of Choi's that learned from there is perfectly different from general Hapkido in korea.

despite of no recording, Choi's technique give a clue of relation with Hapkido and Daitoryu. it's my private researching subject.
OPEN YOUR EYES and OPEN YOUR MIND.

thanks reading

Hukchu

[Jay Bell]

Hi Tim,

There were some "aiki" looking techniques but, with the exception of the head intstructor and his top student, the only reason anyone would fall is because they jumped.

You absolutely said a mouthful there. My limited exposure to Hapkido came from when my ex-wife was studying it in Bloomington, Indiana.

During a trip there, she was testing for her belt exam. The test itself was about 20 people doing whatever the "judge" called them to do. When they teamed up together to perform throws, it was exactly as you stated. Incredibly weak form, and the uke jumping into a dive and landing on their backs.

I sealed my lips, smile and congradulated her on her new promotion. Later that day, she asked me to allow her to do some wrist locks on me. I was game. I stood limp, not resisting at all...and came quickly to understand just what it was about the throws that I earlier witnessed that made them ineffective. They didn't work.

Again..no resistance whatsoever. I stood and allowed her to lock my wrist as she would...and it had no effect. Once again, I damn near bit through my tongue. She became frustrated and I just let her know that it took time to get comfortable with the movements in a perticular art.

That said...I've seen demos of Daito ryu. Unfortunately I have never felt nor experianced nage or anything much else from the Daito ryu mindset. I can, however, say that nothing I have ever experianced or seen was anything similar to that of Daito ryu (or Aikido).

Before the Hapkidoka let the dogs out, understand that I'm not saying that all Hapkido is ineffective or anything rediculous like that. If we look at the video clips posted earlier, what was being shown looks very effective. Again, it does not look at all very "aiki" that I've seen from the Daito ryu perspective. It looks very rigid and "hard" (for lack of a better word).

blahblahblah, ramblerambleramble

Take care, all

Jay

[Nathan Scott]

Hello,

I'd like to make a few quick comments:

1) As others have pointed out, until new evidence is introduced, this discussion is going nowhere. All this has been argued and re-hashed on this BBS and the aikido journal BBS. After you've read through all of that, feel free to post any further questions or comments that may remain. I don't think there will be any!

2) GM Choi DID NOT train under Sokaku sensei for 29 or 30 years! This is impossible for a mutltitude of reasons. If your interested in Daito ryu history, PLEASE buy and read "Conversations with Daito ryu masters" edited by Stanley Pranin; Aiki News, and "Aikido Masters" edited by Stanley Pranin; Aiki News.

3) The majority of people have not seen "Daito ryu aiki". Far less people have felt it, and even less understand why it works. Kondo sensei doesn't really show any publicly (that I've seen), and Okamoto sensei has his own specialty and slant on DR aiki - which is ligit of course, but not fully representative. No offense, but the Seishinkai is not the most credible source for "Daito ryu confirmation", nor is Takeda Munemitsu or the Saigo-ha Daito ryu.

If someone would like to submit a video or MPEG movie of GM Choi or someone else performing methods that appear to come from direct instruction in Daito ryu, we'd be thrilled to view it.

Again, this is a Japanese Aikijujutsu forum, and the several of the people contributing here have substantial experience in the arts, and have done alot of research.

It's not that we don't have an open mind, we just don't want to jump to conclusions based off of ever-changing hearsay. If you think about it, Daito ryu would stand to benefit from the status of claiming themselves the technical influence of Hapkido. There is no reason why anyone would want to bury such a history with Korea, if one did in fact exist.

I'd be all for calling it a day with this thread...

Regards,

[Brently Keen]

Todd,

I think it's fair to say that I speak from real experience and knowledge of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. My experience with other arts is also rather extensive, however, I've got no need drop names and brag about who I've seen and trained with over the years. This is the last that I will say on this subject.

I don't merely make claims on behalf of my teacher, I can and do demonstrate and teach the distinctions I've been talking about.

I can also provide evidence that proves my lineage to Sokaku Takeda.

No one in the Hapki arts has yet been able to do either.

Brently Keen

[hkdtodd]

For those of you who have sent me private messages. I am not able to read them. If you would like to send me a message, Send to hkdtodd@ttlc.net

Thanks
Todd

[hkdtodd]

Brently and others,

I mentioned earlier, Have you trained with Choi, Yong Sool or GM Lim, Hyun Soo the answer is no. So why do you speak as though you have??? I am sure you have a great deal of experience and I am sure you are very good. Nothing would please me more than to get on the mat with you an I am sure BOTH you and I would learn some things. I know all this talk really does not matter it is what you can do on the mat that counts. Maybe some day people can put there egos aside and do just that?

Hapki
Todd

[kadosu777]

Dear Nathan Scott

thanks for your moderating.

1) As others have pointed out, until new evidence is introduced, this discussion is going nowhere. All this has been argued and re-hashed on this BBS and the aikido journal BBS. After you've read through all of that, feel free to post any further questions or comments that may remain. I don't think there will be any!
==> it's only your decision.
if you have a attachment of Certificate of Martial art, I can't show anything. BUT, many hapkido or hapkiyusul(aikijukitsu) member want to know a good information of GM Choi.
it is very difficult for me to find some picture of GM Choi.
unlike Uhesiba Mrihei, many students of GM Choi (who was an illiterate Teacher) betrayed and hide him under history of Hapkido for a honor of themselves.

I'll be introduce many information by internet about Choi.
- picture, video clip, some related documents ..., and so on.
I want to GM Choi be annouced correctly for the aspect of history and technique.
===============================
2) GM Choi DID NOT train under Sokaku sensei for 29 or 30 years! This is impossible for a mutltitude of reasons. If your interested in Daito ryu history, PLEASE buy and read "Conversations with Daito ryu masters" edited by Stanley Pranin; Aiki News, and "Aikido Masters" edited by Stanley Pranin; Aiki News.
==> I have read some years ago. it's only daitoryu master's experience and only verbal interview(you hated some verbal descrption) in japan. this book can't show any evidence of your 'a multitude of reasons'. it's only verbal. GM Choi have interviewed with many people(korean, american..,).
if we make some book with collecting this interview, do you believe my word?

your saying "GM Choi DID NOT train under Sokaku sensei for 29 or 30 years! " how do you confirm this? have you any evidence of this history? because of only Stanley Pranin's interview book?
if you want to confirm this by your sense of values, you might provide any objective document by no being verbal interview.
you think that verbal interviews of CHoi is only a information, being no evidence of truth or not. follwing your thought, verbal interview of daitoryu masters in that book is no evidence...,

Choi's jujitsu and aikijitsu technique are more than 500 except armed technique.
despite being practicing general hapkido for 15 years, I can't learned easily the origin hapkido style "hapkiyusul" because of the depth and difficuty of Choi's technique.
for mastering and using freely one technique, it takes over one year (required time). it's my experience.
GM Choi teached only 10 ~ 15 technique in a year.
I can't believe that Choi have learned his technique in a short time seminar in japan.

if my insistence of Choi is not true,
who have teached him all many and deep technique? where is from? why can't I find a resembling technique in other japan old jujitsu except daitoryu?

==============================
3) The majority of people have not seen "Daito ryu aiki". Far less people have felt it, and even less understand why it works. Kondo sensei doesn't really show any publicly (that I've seen), and Okamoto sensei has his own specialty and slant on DR aiki - which is ligit of course, but not fully representative. No offense, but the Seishinkai is not the most credible source for "Daito ryu confirmation", nor is Takeda Munemitsu or the Saigo-ha Daito ryu.
==> do you think that only Kondo or Okamoto sensei have 'Daitoryu Aiki'? it's your limit. our teacher do not show his real Aiki technique publicly, too.

have you hold a hand of Minemuthu for practicing?
some member of "Yiong Sul Kwan" met him at 1997, and hold his hand. despite of grasping strongly by a strength and big wrist man who can't fasten a wrist button of shirt , old and sick Minemuthu submitted him by daitoryu technique. Minemuthu was skillful, too.

================================
If someone would like to submit a video or MPEG movie of GM Choi or someone else performing methods that appear to come from direct instruction in Daito ryu, we'd be thrilled to view it.
==> I'll upload a video clip of GM Choi as soon as possible.
we have good technique resource (video) of GM Kim Yun Sang at open seminar in seoul. but GM Kim do not want to open it publicly.
if you know Daitoryu, you feel something from my uploding some pictures and video clip in this BB.

================================
Again, this is a Japanese Aikijujutsu forum, and the several of the people contributing here have substantial experience in the arts, and have done alot of research.
==> I want to their good and deep advise about my resources.
if someone have done a lot of research, Is it perpectly true?
and then, who can participate in this BB? only japan aikijujitsu people? and then, you must act this BB by access control technique in Internet.
who have done a lot of research about GM Choi?

================================
It's not that we don't have an open mind, we just don't want to jump to conclusions based off of ever-changing hearsay.
==> I will provide all information of GM Choi publicly which I had had. through my resource, I want "ever-changing hearsay of GM choi" to be changed a little.

================================
If you think about it, Daito ryu would stand to benefit from the status of claiming themselves the technical influence of Hapkido.
==>
many Hapkido master did'nt want to annouce GM Choi publicly, being like a influence of Japan martial art.
But it's not truth of GM Choi.

================================
There is no reason why anyone would want to bury such a history with Korea, if one did in fact exist.
==>
Aikido was opened at foreigner from birth time.
But Daitoryu was japan palace martial art. have ever listened a name of Foreigner? American or others?

some japanese martial artist insisted to me "Sokaku teached Daitoryu only japanese because of palace art.".
but for helping my japan friends, I can find some korean in daitoryu enrollment at abarashi.

regards,

hukchu

[Arman]

You know, now that you mention it, I'm starting to realize that Sokaku Takeda most likely learned Daito-ryu FROM GM Choi! I mean, I don't see any real evidence to the contrary. Who cares what the enrollment books show - it doesn't mean Sokaku didn't first learn from GM Choi. If that's the case, as I'm beginning to suspect, then that means that not only Daito-ryu, but also Aikido, owe their existence to. . .GM Choi!
Thanks for helping me see the light. Whew.

Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Baltimore, MD

[hkdtodd]

It is sad to see so many closed minded people. I will be the first to admit that there is no written evidence at least to my knowlege about Choi, Yong Sool learning Daito Ryu from Sokaku Takeda. This does not mean that it did not happen. What some of you are saying is that if it is not written down it could not have happened. This argument will never be solved by talk. I think that the OBVIOUS similaritys between Daito Ryu and Dai Dong Ryu Hapkido speak for themselves.

Many people make claims about their origin that are false including some that call themselves Daito Ryu, it is not just a Hapkido problem.

What ever became of studying other arts to learn more about your own style of preferance?

I welcome those that would like to see what the original Hapkido is like to stop by my dojang and I would be happy to share in the TRUE spirit of the MUDO/BUDO what we are about.

In peace

Todd Miller
Director
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc. of America

[Neil Yamamoto]

I just had lunch and came across some very interesting information. You see, I sat down to lunch at a new Korean restaurant and was surprised to see General Choi’s Chicken on the menu. It was amusing to me, you know General Tsao’s chicken and all, I made a wise crack, which the waiter repeated to the chef.

To my surprise, the chef came out and proceeded to inform me as to the true origins of General Tsao’s chicken and several other Asian foods. It turns out it’s really Korean in origin!

The chef informed me that he had studied in several different countries in learning to cook Asian food. Korean, Japanese, Chinese, Vietnamese, Thai and had mastered them all. He thought he was a master chef until one day on vacation, he was in the mountains of Korea and came to a temple/ monastery where he decided to rest. He fell into a conversation with a monk who was delighted to speak with a fellow chef, and they fell to discussing their passion for food and cooking.

The chef offered to cook for the monks, thinking it would be treat for them, however, the monks were very quiet, seemed to not be happy with the meal, and did not finish the food he had prepared. He was surprised and the first monk he had met took him into the kitchen and showed him how the monks were used to eating. Imagine the chef’s surprise when the food was far superior to anything he had ever tasted! He then asked to stay and learn from the monks.

The chef revealed that many so-called Chinese gourmet specialties were really Korean in origin! He pointed to the use of hot peppers as proof, and said Korean foods are known for being the spiciest in Asia, so of course they copied it in other countries. I commented that peppers were common in many countries, but he quickly showed me that all peppers originated in Korea.

General Tsao’s chicken was actually invented by General Choi, who was a famous general who commanded the Korean forces, which served Khublai Khan. General Choi died in the second invasion of Japan, but his cooking secrets survived with some of his troops who survived. Other famous dishes invented by Koreans include Ma-po tofu, Mongolian Beef, ( this did exist as highly salted and black pepper seasoned form, but the Koreans improved it by the addition of red peppers.), Buddhist delight garlic sauce, and spicy twice cooked pork.

I asked if there was any proof and he told me that it was all in performance. Did the food taste good? If so, why do you need historical proof, it matters not. So there you go, There’s no reason this guy would have lied to me is there? I mean the $50 bucks he charged me for lunch seemed reasonable seeing as how I was entertained.
--

OK my little tale of lies has ended. I hope my sarcasm is understood. The difference between historical verification and believing what you want to believe since you like what you do. I really like food, but that doesn’t mean I believe stories like the one you just read. I really like martial arts too, but I don’t buy the claims most people put out there for a second. The Abashiri Seishinkai group has been debated many time, please check thoroughly before you use them as a credible source. While they may practice Daito ryu as they learned at the Daitokan, they sure have a lot to learn about being credible in how they present their own history.

I have no problem with Hapkido as a martial art. I have seen some exceptional performances over the years. And yes, I have seen and trained in both Daito and hapkido. Where I do disagree is the exaggerations, distortions, and some outright lies used to promote the art’s so called history. Do other arts do the same? Sure do, but that doesn’t excuse the act or prove you are right.

Now, Bruce Sims and Stan Pranin do have proof that some Koreans did study Daito ryu, but that doesn’t hold water for what is claimed in this thread. When I will believe what you say is when there is verified documented evidence or sufficient anecdotal evidence.

Sorry, but pictures of two guys standing together doesn’t cut it. I have pictures of myself with many famous martial arts teachers. It doesn’t mean anything except I met them once.

Good research means documenting where you got the information, confirming it with multiple sources, and then rechecking your facts before putting it out there. While Lim may be an outstanding martial artist, you can’t say “prove it didn’t happen this way” and expect any of us to swallow it. Maybe on rec.martial-arts, but not here. In short, don’t make claims you can’t verify.

As for cross training, I have cross trained in several arts to try and understand aikijujutsu and aikido bettter. But that has nothing to do with proof one art is in some way related to the other historically. Don’t confuse the two.

As Nathan said, this thread should end, but I had to get this in just for fun. Besides, I was having a serving of General Tsao’s , er, excuse me, General Choi’s chicken for a snack. And later this week I will be at a friend’s jujutsu dojo to try and better understand my own art.

But that doesn’t mean that General Choi invented chicken, that was Colonel Saunders. Maybe he studied in Korea too.

Nathan, if you want to nuke me, go ahead. My sarcasm is running rampant today.

[hkdtodd]

I know this is off topic but will any of you be at the Western Regional Tournament of Swordsmanship held in Seattle by Sensei R. McCartney? If so I would enjoy meeting you, Sarcasim and all.

Peace
Todd Miller

[Joseph Svinth]

If you want to study world-class Korean martial arts, try boxing or judo. Some really good athletes there.

As for Russ, I can't make it, but please give him my regards. That said, if you're serious about wanting to meet a bunch of really sarcastic E-budo posters in person, note that there will be an aiki-jujutsu seminar with Bernie Lau at the Seattle Ju-jutsu School on December 1.

[hkdtodd]

I will be in Seattle this weekend and unfortunately I will not be able to make for the Aiki seminar Dec. 1st. A little sarcasm is not a problem for me. Just make sure you can take what you dish out. That way we can all stay civilized. I would like to compare Hapkido and Daito Ryu. I have seen some Daito Ryu and it looks and feels close to the original Hapkido taught by Choi, Yong Sool, well maybe not as powerfull but as long as your training hard you have a chance to get there!

In fun
Todd