Hapkido (Aikido), Hapkiyoosool (Aikijujutsu), & Daedong-ryu (Daito-ryu)

[Nathan Scott]

Apparently there are some Hapkido schools now using the name "Daedong-ryu Hapkiyoosool" (Korean translation of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu) now to teach the Hapkido of Choi. The main one in America seems to be located in Florida:

http://www.hapkiyoosool.com

If Choi supposedly did not use the name Daedong-ryu, but rather Hapkido, then how do we get to Korean Daito-ryu? Who in Daito-ryu Japan licensed the formation of Daedong-ryu in Korea? Names like Aikido, Jujutsu and Judo are general names that are hard to protect, but isn't there some ethical considerations about using a specific ryu name (with specific references on webpages to the parent art in Japan), even if it IS translated into another language (though using identical characters)?

A quick look through another hapkiyusul.com page shows a Daito-ryu study group under Kondo Sensei training with a hapkiyusul yongsulkwon group:



Maybe hapkiyoosool will become aikijujutsu after all?

Just thought I'd post this info in case anyone is interested.

Regards,

[glad2bhere]

Well, Nathan, at least in this particular case I can speak with some measure of authority as I was accepted into this kwan a year ago September, 2004.

The YONG SUL KWAN is led by Kim, Yun Sang who is currently the "keeper of the tradition" (Doju) of the Choi tradition as Kim was taught during his training period with Choi. To the best of my knowlege Kim does not identify his art as Daito-ryu, but does use the term "hapkiyusool". To the best of my knowlege Choi Yong Sul never used the term Daito-ryu, but the report has been attributed to him and never satisfactorily substantiated.

From whatever I can glean from my research most of the confusion seems to stem from the efforts of Ji Han Jae, Kim Moo Woong and Myong Jae Nam to formulate a sound synthesis of material and market it under the name "Hapkido". The effort was unsuccessful and there has been hell to pay ever since. The individual who may have contributed the greatest amount of confusion to this history is Myong Jae Nam himself. His efforts to align the Hapkido community in Korea with the Aikido community in Japan seems to have been the single greatest influence in developing and propagating the sorts of stories you are commenting on.

I beleive an extreme example of the principle can be found in the efforts of the Florida gentleman you cited, whose teacher was apparently only tangentially connected to the Hapkido community and apparently practiced Aikido. The connection, once again, are the common Chinese characters which, when read one way and then the other --Japanese and then Korean--- result in "aikido" and "hapkido" respectively. FWIW.

In the end, Modern Aikido has about as much to do with Modern Hapkido as Modern Daito-ryu has with its precursor from the Middle Ages. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Ron Tisdale]

Hi Nathan,

The picture you posted includes Rick Fine. He is a member of the study group in Baltimore under Kondo Sensei, has been to Japan at least once that I know of to train at the Shimbukan, and has his Korean teacher's permission to do so.

As far a I know, he is NOT mixing the two traditions, but teaching them separately, the Daito ryu in a study group fashion. He does post here occationally, so if you send him an email, I'm sure he'd be more than happy to accomodate any curriosity. Perhaps he knows something of the school in question.

Best,
Ron (and happy holidays to all)

[glad2bhere]

The specific group pictured in this thread is a study group started by Shin Hoon during an extended stay in Texas beginning last year. Shin Hoon is the instructor at the YONG SUL KWAN in Seoul and has been an ardent supporter of Dojunim Kim's material for quite some time. Hope this helps.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[rickfine]

Actually, this is not a photo of Shin Hoon's study group. This photo was taken at my school here in Austin, on May 14 of this year. At my invitation Shin Hoon came to visit and, with his teacher's permission, was our guest instructor that morning. The photo depicts some of our students and instructors afterwards, with Shin Hoon and an accompanying member of his study group (back row, far left).

Shin Hoon had come to the U.S. for a spring semester of graduate studies at Texas A&M. His Yong Sul Kwan study group was based there. That's about 120 miles from Austin (close by Texas standards ). During his stay here in Texas, we met twice to compare our research on these perplexing history questions: the occasion in the photo, and once earlier in the semester when I took a drive to A&M.

And that's all there is to it: just a little Texas hospitality, folks.

[Nathan Scott]

Hi Bruce,

Thanks for the info. I'm glad somebody has sorted it all out!

Ron, thanks for the post, but FWIW, I didn't post Mr. Fine's name because I didn't want the post to come across like an off the cuff attack. More than anything, I was surprised to come across his photo on their page (or course identifying him as a DR studygroup member, not a KMA member...).

Same goes for the gentleman in Florida. I feel like it is basically wrong to translate the name into another language and promote it as "Daito-ryu", but didn't know how others felt about it. It's kind of like Hakko-ryu - the name is different, but there is never a shortage of Daito-ryu references by Hakko-ryu exponents, both in person and in their publications. One individual teaching Hakko-ryu out in my area actually uses a picture of Kondo Sensei demonstrating DR technique as the centerpiece for his own Hakko-ryu flyer!

Anyway, my post was informational only. Opinions or clarifications welcome...

Regards,

[TEA]

What do y'all think? This GM is in his late '70s.

Hapkido Video

I think his technique looks very polished, but he seems to leave himself open to a strike from his uke's free hand in a lot of these techniques.

[Jose Garrido]

Mr. Cheavens,

Thank-you for this link. The video was wonderful. The man truly had very nice techniques. And his Ukes were excellent at ukemi.

IMHO I saw a very good example of excellent Jujutsu techniques, but as I stated this just my opinion.

I have rarely seen Hapkidoist do techniques like these. Most of what I have seen has been more of the "Billy Jack" kicking stuff.

Once again, thanks for the link it will go to my hard drive archives.

Jose Garrido

[Ron Tisdale]

Wow. To move like that when in your 70's. Man.

Beats the heck out of Billy Jack.

Best,
Ron

[knghtazrael]

Mr. Cheavens,
IMHO I saw a very good example of excellent Jujutsu techniques, but as I stated this just my opinion.

I have rarely seen Hapkidoist do techniques like these. Most of what I have seen has been more of the "Billy Jack" kicking stuff.
Jose Garrido

It was a very good video. I myself have only seen a little of Hapkido but have done some research on the art. It's my understanding that Hapkido got some of its origins from Daito-Ryu and i've been told later some influence of Aikido itself. However Hapkido teaches both the joint locks ect of jujutsu as well as the striking of TKD so you do get some interesting kicking. All in all I've been told it's a very good art.

Ray Bellville

[chrismoses]

Well, not to seem eletist or anything, but why is this in the AJJ forum? It's not Koryu and it's not AJJ.

As for the video itself, he's obviously skilled at what he does, and it's great that he's able to move that fast at his age, BUT there's a lot I don't like (if it's to be analyzed from an Aikido/jutsu mindset). There's not much kuzushi to speak of his uke is balanced throughout the technique until being wrenched to the ground at the end. His footwork is pretty sloppy for someone dealing with a cooperative attacker/student. Most of his throws are accomplished at the expense of his own posture and/or throwing his weight rotationally through his hips. So I guess you could say that I'm not super impressed, and don't really feel this is the right place for this video. Aikidojournal.com now has a Hapkido sub-forum, perhaps that might be a better place for discussion about this.

[chrismoses]

elitist even...

[Ron Tisdale]

Hi Chris,

I can't disagree with any of your critisisms (omph, I hate typing that word) but I'm not sure that disqualifies it from this forum. I know I saw some waza in there that very much resembled some of the Daito ryu waza I'm familiar with. Acknowledging the lack of provenance to "authentic" Daito ryu, I'm not sure that we can't look at the video here and discuss why we don't think of it as authentic Daito ryu.

Some of the points you mentioned came to mind when I watched the clip. For instance, when grabbed, it seemed the shite did no movement off line or entering or turning. He pretty much just stood there, with the attacker (as you said) remaining balanced. Most Japanese schools of jujutsu or aikido would probably not agree with that operating system. I don't think he even really used atemi for the initial kuzushi, though there were plenty of dynamic atemi once he got going.

All in all, I enjoyed the clip for what it was, and am really amazed that he moves like that in his 70's. So while I might not agree with all of the principles displayed, I am pretty impressed.

Best,
Ron

[chrismoses]

I know I saw some waza in there that very much resembled some of the Daito ryu waza I'm familiar with. Acknowledging the lack of provenance to "authentic" Daito ryu, I'm not sure that we can't look at the video here and discuss why we don't think of it as authentic Daito ryu.

Personally I see more in common between mainline Aikido and the publicly demonstrated aspects of DR than I do with this (or really any) Hapkido clip. This area isn't for the discussion of Aikido either. One could argue that there isn't a specific place for the study of Hapkido, but then you look up in that left hand corner and it says, "The Internet's Source For Japanese Martial Arts And Culture." Now, if the poster had discussed various specifics found in the video and how they relate to known and easily referenced DR kata, that would be something, but I don't see that happening.

[John Connolly]

http://www.hapkidoforum.com/