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Thread: Hapkido (Aikido), Hapkiyoosool (Aikijujutsu), & Daedong-ryu (Daito-ryu)

  1. #121
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    Dear Dan, Nathan et al:

    You must trust me when I say that it is no picnic from the OTHER side of the arguement, either. I have been doing research into Korean martial traditions for a few years now. I must report that the Koreans are no better in their self-reports to people on this side than they are to people in the MA community in general. Even within the KMA and Hapkido community itself there are grandiose claims, embellished historys and assertions that border perilously on outright fraud. Nor is the concept of the "Hermit Kingdom" dead. Just because it is not expressed politically does not mean that in their dealings with non-Koreans the Korean people have lost any of their xenophobic proclivities. Most or any accurate technical and historical information is reserved to a special few and attempting to prise loose even the most simple citations and references can be challenge worthy of Hercules.

    All that said, I can report that the material I have been able to uncover is not so different from the material in any other culture that has been used for propaganda purposes. Take away the glizt and glamour and what you have are average people doing average things under extraordinary circumstances. The reality of this, though, does not sell a lot of TKD contracts at the local school, right? Furthermore, traditional Korean arts are often particularly difficult to learn and must be mastered a bit at a time. Such protracted efforts are not the stuff of successful commercial ventures in cultures where "quick, cheap and easy" rule. The result is that most Korean traditions that survived the 20th Century are dying from neglect. Sad but true.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  2. #122
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    I partly agree with the last post. Korean arts are rare because the mastery was so long, and many masters in fact refused to train many students. Either that or their methods were so grpping that everyone quit.

    But I do have to admit the Japanese eventually developed good sword skills especially from 1500s-1600s, but only because they kept fighting every day amongst themselves so of course they get good.

    Korea used to have some unbelievable martial artists but several things prevented the legacy of Korean warriors today (they are not as famous as samurai)

    1. Unlike Japan, Koreans were not allowed to "duel" outside of war, preventing both senseless killings and individual MA glory
    2. Korean masters refused to teach anyone outside of "good students."
    Since human beings are generally screwed up and many Koreans has baaad tempers most ended up having no one to pass on their knowledge

    The last person I consider a true Korean-Martial Arts master was a descendant of a HwaRang and is the last person on earth to have direct HwaRang MA lineage training (all the rest are re-creations from old manuals). He was a monk and when he went to the city in the 70s (not sure exactly when) he got jumped by a roughly translated "stick gang" who as the name said all fought with sticks. He broke off a big umbrella handle and preceded to kick all their buts, and according to all eyewitnesses not once did he get hit. The fight lasted 4-5 HOURS and the last hour was caught by the media. Everyone looked for him so he set up a dojo, which closed down in less than two months because everyon quit. He refused to lighten the training for the purpose of keeping student, some of the training included "climb that mountain ten times" and craziness like that. He had them dig a huge hole about five feet, then asked them to jump in and out of it 500 times or something like that??? All of this before teaching anyone any techniques because "they were not ready yet" and so everyone left and the art is now dead.

    It was a big thing with LOTS of eyewitnesses and pictures in the newspapers and plus my dad was there so I'm not gonna question him lol

    My dad told me some crazy techniques he did, it's incredible, i've never even heard of some of the concepts this guy was using. I can't show you in person so maybe I'll draw some stick figures to show what he did, it was truly amazing stuff.

    About the training, he really did have people climbing mountains and jumping off of crazy heights and expected more than his students were willing to do. See the problems is in modern society you can't just be a full-time monk and MA student, at least not normally. People couldn't be there all day climing and jumping and training all day, so it was too much to expect and so everyone quit, and the dojo did shut down in less than two months. It's possible there's one or two other people in the world who have his same lineage but so far we don't know and by now they probably all died.... in fact everyone thought no one still knew the original (non-re-creation) HwaRang until this incident, he said his family made it a responsiblility so it was passed on and since they didn't teach it, it ended up being kind of secretive.

    The HwaRang were an elite force trained from the age of around 5 in the old Korean days, all they did was train to be soldiers, but of course that stopped in modern society, and in a way it's good that kids don't have to be soldiers in Korea anymore
    World Peace

    "What's in a name? That which we call a rose." - [I]Romeo and Juliet[/I]. Act II. scene ii. line 36.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott

    I'm not sure about this question, but I'm going to assume it is a sincere question anyway just in case.

    The quick answer is Daito-ryu is quite unique as a jujutsu style in some ways, and typical in other ways. There are only so many ways to lock the joints in human beings, and as such, similarities in outer locking shapes are pretty common. The question of differences becomes a combination of historical context of development, operating principles being use, method of training, etc. Some of these are harder to see from the outside than others.

    But to answer your question, there are a couple of places you can look for comparisons. One is a two volume series in English called "Aikido and Chinese Martial Arts", by Sugawara Tetsutaka. Though it is not a comparison of aikido and jujutsu, it does illustrate how the methods of aikido can be taken apart and found in other systems. The other reference that best answers you question is a Japanese language only book called "Hiden Koryu Jujutsu Giho", by Hirakami Nobuyuki. Though I don't agree with much of the conclusions the author makes in regards to these comparisons, it is a good attempt at demonstrating how various jujutsu arts have some similar looking techniques.

    Regards,
    The question was indeed sincere, though the question-asker (me) is often sincerely misinformed. I had heard that DRAJJ was quite unconventional amongst koryu jujutsu schools, both in theory and in the methods of transmission, but I really wasn't sure about the accuracy of that information or about the specifics. Thank you for your answer, which clarifies many of the things I had heard, and for your book recommendation. I speak a little Japanese, but I am hopeless at kanji, so "Hiden Koryu Jujutsu Giho" is out, but I will add "Aikido and Chinese Martial Arts" to my reading list.

    Thanks again,
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

  4. #124
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    Mr. Pizza,

    Sign all your posts with your full, real name, per the policy you agree to or I will delete all your posts. Thanks.

    Mr. Sims,

    Glad to have been of some service in that case. Daito-ryu is said to be unorthodox in many ways compared to koryu, and in my opinion this is both true and untrue. It is pretty different than extant koryu jujutsu that I've seen in many ways, but Daito-ryu is the only "internal" jujutsu art that has survived, so it is the only example we have of an internal jujutsu system. To me the most unorthodox thing about Daito-ryu is the seminar method Sokaku used to teach the art.

    Regards,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  5. #125
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    Nathan,

    Pizza already got banned for multiple personalities and no name (one sig was William Dotrieve of "King of the Hill).
    John Connolly

    Yamamoto Ha Fluffy Aiki Bunny Ryu

  6. #126
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    My own experience has been that Korean instruction is VERY long on repetition and conditioning and short on structure, curriculum, theory and analysis. I have a growing sense that most Koreans are rather niggardly in sharing depth in their material simply because they come to find that they HAVE little depth to share. This is not to say that Korean arts are superficial, but rather that there is simply not the same sort of intense and detailed examination of the art that one finds in say, Japanese culture.

    Taken a step farther, it is not uncommon for a conflict to arise when a teacher raised in an unquestioning culture finds himself faced with a Westerner steeped in "critical thinking". A Korean national would find in-depth questions almost affrontive no matter how well-intentioned the Westerners motives. I am sure that I am more than a bit of a challenge to my own teachers as I routinely ask questions regarding technical bits which they have been raised to accept as resolved by simply "more training". FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Jakabcsin
    Personally I agree with Chris, Jock and John. Stanley your original post doesn't belong here and frankly Nathan was overly nice to merge your thread instead of simply deleting it. Your follow on temper tantrum and name calling was most unwelcome.

    While you will probably take this wrong I am very curious about something. Stanely for the last couple years I have seen you post similar threads to this one asking about a specific teacher or art. Do you actually train in a martial art or are you simply curious about martial arts? If you do train I hope you don't mind me asking how often? I'm just trying to get a feel for where all of your constant 'art' questioning is coming from.

    Take care,

    Mark J.
    None of your bees wax Mister. How d'ya like them apples?

    Take care and thank you for your concern. You have been most helpful.

    Stanley Neptune

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by stanley neptune
    None of your bees wax Mister. How d'ya like them apples?

    Stanley Neptune
    Stanley,
    I like those apples just fine as they tell me all I wanted to know.

    MJ

  9. #129
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    Okay here is the scoop although I don't know why it matters. I have a blue belt on Kenpo. I have studied Northern Shaolin, very little Tae Kwon Do and a smattering of Small Circle Ju Jitsu.

    I am currently, and have been for the last 4 years, studying JKD in a study group under Big Sean Madigan. I only train 2 times per week max. Sometimes the job gets in the way and it may be less. It is a good workout and it is very Wing Chun oriented.

    I ask about other arts and styles because I like to see what might be useful.

    Sorry if I offended anyone with my line of questions.

    Stanley Neptune

  10. #130
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    PS In the future I will address my questions to the appropriate forum.

    Stanley Neptune

  11. #131
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    Thanks Stanley, that was much appreciated. Kudos.
    Christian Moses
    **Certified Slimy, Moronic, Deranged and Demented Soul by Saigo-ha Daito Ryu!**
    Student of:
    Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
    Tuesday Night Bad Budo Club (TM)

  12. #132
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    Default Hapkido not Aikido

    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere View Post
    I beleive an extreme example of the principle can be found in the efforts of the Florida gentleman you cited, whose teacher was apparently only tangentially connected to the Hapkido community and apparently practiced Aikido. The connection, once again, are the common Chinese characters which, when read one way and then the other --Japanese and then Korean--- result in "aikido" and "hapkido" respectively. FWIW.

    In the end, Modern Aikido has about as much to do with Modern Hapkido as Modern Daito-ryu has with its precursor from the Middle Ages. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Hello, I am Master Jeff Allen and I am the "gentleman" in Florida and student of Grandmaster Chang Young-Shil. Having been in Hapkido for 36 years and studied under GM Chang in Korea at his school, I have the duty to correct anyone who says that Grandmaster Chang Young-Shil trained in Aikido or teaches it. He NEVER trained Aikido. GM Chang recieved his first two black belt certificates directly from Choi Yong-Sul and his other Dan certificates through the (at the time) Korean Hapkido Association up to his 9 Dan. I and MANY others have held these very certificates in our hands. He established his own federation 51 years ago. He opened the first school with Han Bong-Soo on Osan Air base in 1960. He trained along side Ji Han-Jae and Han Bong-Soo. Grandmaster Chang did/does travel to Japan to share techniques and information with the Daito-Ryu and Aikiai but, never trained in Aikido EVER! He has NEVER claimed to be in Aikido nor has he ever claimed to teach Aikido. If you have any questions pertaining to this, you may call him directly in Korea and talk to him. You can get his phone number on our website. http://www.hapkiyoosool.com
    I hope this ends the discussion on this. Thank you.

  13. #133
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    Default Grandmaster Chang

    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere View Post
    My own experience has been that Korean instruction is VERY long on repetition and conditioning and short on structure, curriculum, theory and analysis. I have a growing sense that most Koreans are rather niggardly in sharing depth in their material simply because they come to find that they HAVE little depth to share. This is not to say that Korean arts are superficial, but rather that there is simply not the same sort of intense and detailed examination of the art that one finds in say, Japanese culture.

    Taken a step farther, it is not uncommon for a conflict to arise when a teacher raised in an unquestioning culture finds himself faced with a Westerner steeped in "critical thinking". A Korean national would find in-depth questions almost affrontive no matter how well-intentioned the Westerners motives. I am sure that I am more than a bit of a challenge to my own teachers as I routinely ask questions regarding technical bits which they have been raised to accept as resolved by simply "more training". FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    I know that Grandmaster Chang Young-Shil is the very opposite of your assumed Korean stereotype. Our training in Korea was VERY long on repetition and conditioning and STRONG on structure, curriculum, theory and analysis. We welcome "questioning" on the mat and encrourage it greatly. You really can't say ALL Koreans are like this. It is like saying all "Americans are fat, lazy and stupid", quoted directly from the Japanese Prime Minister. You have to take a careful look at ALL instructor as individuals and compare them to no other. We are all unique and teach in our own way. Same techniques and whatnot but different views based on education and culture.

  14. #134
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    Default No physical evidence besides....

    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere View Post
    Dear Erik:

    I just finished fielding a question along these lines for another person and thought you would find the following information interesting. This is always a subject guarenteed to start a flurry of emails so have fun but be careful.

    BTW: Check out that site on AIKIDO JOURNAL.com. Theres' a lot of good info there if I do say so myself.

    "Now THAT is the $64 thousand dollar question for the ages!!! I wish I could give you some nice neat yes or no but life doesn’t always work that way. I will tell you what my research has found to date.

    The American Hapkido Assn has published an interview with GM Choi and I believe it is still on their website. How about if we use this as a medium for discussing this, ‘kay?

    According to the interview, there is no question that GM Choi went Japan when he was very young (8 or 9) and lived there until he was repatriated to Korea after the Second WW. The report is that while in Japan as a small boy at a Buddhist school, GM Choi came to the attention of OS Takeda of the Daito-ryu and stayed with him for the balance of his stay in Japan. So far this is not a problem. Lots of people were moved from Korea to work in Japan and from Japan to populate Korea at that time. GM Suh, in an interview even states GM Chois’ Japanese name (Yoshida Tatujutsu). When GM Choi came back to Korea he reports that all his documents associated with his years in Japan were stolen at a train station. No documents. GM Choi reported in his interview that he had mastered Daito-ryu aikijujitsu and so began teaching what he called “yu sool” or “yawara”.

    Now, lets take this a step at a time.

    1.) In order to MASTER Daito-ryu Aikijujitsu you need to be awarded a Menkyo Kaiden. There have only been three of these awarded in the Daito-ryu history and GM Choi is not recorded as one of them. Many, many more teaching licenses were issued by the Daito-ryu (Kyoju Dairi) but there is no record of one being issued to GM Choi under either his Korean or Japanese name. There are however, other Korean MA who are listed on the attendence lists in the archives of various factions of the Daito-ryu. There is even a tantalizing rumor that GM Chois’ name can be found in the rosters held by the Daito-ryu Kodokai or the Roppokai but these organizations tend to be very closed lipped about this matter (and anything else as well) and will not allow for an examination of their records.
    2.) GM Choi represented himself as one of, if not THE student of OS Takeda, going so far as to say that he, Choi, accompanied Takeda all of Japan and even to Hawaii for a historic presentation in the 1930-s. No records. No one remembers this person. There are no pictures or newsclippings. Not in more than 30 years of “training” is there any record or memory of GM Choi serving in this capacity (or any other that I have been able to find).
    3.) The teachings of Daito-ryu can be broken into three levels of sophistication beginning with ju-jitsu, moving to aiki-jujitsu and ending with aikijitsu. The techniques which were integrated into the Korean arts by GM Choi are only of the ju-jitsu level of sophistication. (Now there has been indications of aiki-jujitsu and aikijitsu level technique but this has not been traced to GM Choi and is very inconsistent. This could suggest introduction by another Korean national who also learned Daito-ryu but to a higher level of sophistication, or may be indicative a higher level of development by Korean MA independent of Japanese influence and inspite of the terrible Japanese occupation. Needs more study.)
    4.) The teaching of Daito-ryu include Ken-jitsu (Japanese sword techniques) of the Ona Itto Ha Ken-jitsu style. There are also Jo (stick), Bo (staff) and knife as well. None of these weapons biomechanics have been identified with Hapkido except as a function of those arts already existing in Korea at the time of GM Chois repatriation. Hapkido practices weapons but after the fashion of traditional Korean weaponry. So one finds Kum-bop instead of Japanese Kendo, cane rather than jo, and Korean staff and spear instead of Japanese Bo. The practice of knife or short-sword has become a matter of personal selection much like the practice of rope or belt techniques. Also the rope techniques are more a function of snaring or entangling rather than binding.

    So, where does that leave us.

    COULD GM Chois have studied Daito-ryu? Certainly. He also could have taken one of the many seminars offered by OS Takeda and then focused on study in one of the lesser schools. Or he could have just picked-up odd bits during his many years in Japan. Who knows?

    Did GM Choi master Daito-ryu? In my opinion, No. There is no documentation, there is no biomechanical evidence, and there is no curricular evidence.

    Why does this historical position persist? Follow the money. Hapkido is big business with a minimum of 7 major and hundreds of minor organizations. Nobody is going to step up and say that the emperor has no clothes. And, be careful, those same people don’t want anyone else saying it either!


    Now I know you are probably eye-sore reading all this babbling and its not my place to try to convince you one way or another. I just want you to consider ALL sides of the story. Nothing I have said here is anything that you can’t find out for yourself if you just dig a bit. In the meantime I want to mention (briefly, Honest) something you mentioned in your letter.

    Just to keep things clear the emptyhand techniques didn’t “come from” the weapons anymore than the weapons techniques “came from” the emptyhand techniques. These techniques (armed and unarmed) share common biomechanics such that if you can perform a particular movement well with you body doing an emptyhanded technique, you will likewise do well performing that same movement with a weapon. A turning movement with a sword is a turning movement for a kick, is a turning movement for a throw, is a turning movement for a strike, yes?

    The “entwining” techniques you mentioned (AKA “snaring”) are extant in Hapkido and from what I have been able to find in research may have been preparatory for binding techniques. "Snaring" whether by elbow, knee or ankle is a manipulation taught at BB level (for me, I teach it at first degree BB) along with the limited binding techniques I have been able to uncover. If you locate some of the material of the Daito-ryu you will occasionally find techniques which allow the defender to stand and clap their hands while the attacker is “magically” restrained on the floor. Nearly always there is a knee or ankle snare involved to lock the attackers’ arms behind and allow the defenders’ hands to be free for other duties (such as binding). "

    Have at it.

    Best Wishes,
    Bruce W Sims
    www,midwesthapkido.com
    You are correct on this Bruce. There are no records of Choi ever studying the complete art of Daito-Ryu. The only evidene proven is that he did know something that resembled the "short version of Jujutsu". He taught no sword, staff or any other weapon to my knwoledge of research. He taught basic jujtusu that kids learn in school. It was the other instructors like Chang Young-Shil, Han Bong-Soo, Ji Han-Jae, Myung Jae-Nam and others who took the initiative to learn all the missing parts or add what they felt was necessary to make it the complete art that it is today. That is one reasons that Grandmaster Chang would go to Japan is to get what was missing and put it al back together along with Korean cultural perspectives and life experience during the Korean War. Han Bong-Soo added his knolwedge of KongSooDo that he learned before studying Hapkido as well as Ji Han-Jae with whatever else he knew. Choi did start a huge movement though. It was a cause and effect epidemic for sure.
    Last edited by Hapkiyoosool; 29th December 2011 at 19:03. Reason: spelling

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