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Thread: Yoshimaru Keisetsu (Sadao) / Aiki Rentaikai

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    Default Yoshimaru Keisetsu (Sadao) / Aiki Rentaikai

    Does anyone have this book that can do a review of it? How many photos? Is it true aikijujutsu? Thank you in advance.

    Erin O'Neill

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    Aikido no Ogi - by Yoshimaru Keisatsu, 371 pages

    I've brought this issue while training under Kimura sensei this year. Mr.Keisatsu have studied under Sagawa Yukiyoshi sensei from 1961 to 1974/5. He was also ranked in Gojuryu. He left Sagawa Dojo and trained Chen Taiji, then joined Yamamoto-den Daito-ryu, where he became kyojudairi.
    The book advertises Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu 1st and 2nd Gen. It seems Mr.Keisatsu's memory fades, since many techniques in the book are not correct Sagawa-ha Daitoryu, neither the names of waza.

    The first part (p.28-134) deals with Aiki-Kempo, however it is not Aiki-kempo as formed by Sagawa sensei. It is Mr.Keisatsu's own development, which he calls Goshinken. Aiki-kempo is different.

    Next part (p.136-222) is explaining Aikiage, and some variations, however Kimura sensei warned everyone here that the explanation of Mr.Keisatsu is not only completely wrong, but even "dangerous" in sense that if one follows it then one's improvement of Aiki or Daitoryu would stop. It's the same for previous 3 books of Mr.Keisatsu.

    The last part (224-358) shows Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu, however the structure (names, number of waza, etc) of both 1st and 2nd Gen are not correct. The form (or appearance) of waza are correct to some extend.

    The great value of the book is in Sagawa sensei's sayings. This book has really a lot of them. From this point the book is worth buying.

    I base all this on information I've received from Kimura sensei in Japan, November this year.

    Regarding photos: not all mentioned waza appear on photos in this book, since the author wrote "Aikido no Kagaku" before, and many waza of the 1st Gen were shown there.
    Personally I think that "Aikido no Ougi" is quite good in regards to form/outlook of Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu, yet again I must emphasize this very important point: explanations given by the author are not related to Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu. They are based on Mr. Keisatsu's own observations and thinking, which resulted in his own theory on Aiki and waza.

    Paul Wollos

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    Originally posted by Daito
    The book advertises Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu 1st and 2nd Gen. It seems Mr.Keisatsu's memory fades, since many techniques in the book are not correct Sagawa-ha Daitoryu, neither the names of waza.
    Of course in 30 years things may have changed...

    Originally posted by Daito
    The first part (p.28-134) deals with Aiki-Kempo, however it is not Aiki-kempo as formed by Sagawa sensei. It is Mr.Keisatsu's own development, which he calls Goshinken. Aiki-kempo is different.
    That's true, he also notes that fact in the book.

    Originally posted by Daito
    The great value of the book is in Sagawa sensei's sayings. This book has really a lot of them. From this point the book is worth buying.
    There are a whole lot of quotes from Sagawa in the book, complete with dates that the quotes were made. Some of the quotes are repeated multiple times, which can get a little annoying, however, many of the quotes are quite interesting.

    Originally posted by Daito
    Personally I think that "Aikido no Ougi" is quite good in regards to form/outlook of Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu, yet again I must emphasize this very important point: explanations given by the author are not related to Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu. They are based on Mr. Keisatsu's own observations and thinking, which resulted in his own theory on Aiki and waza.
    I enjoyed this book, and his other ones. Right or wrong, the books more or less present his theories and the results of his research in a fairly reasoned manner, and he makes some interesting points.

    Best,

    Chris

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    Mr. Wollos,

    When you say "Yamamoto-den", do you mean the Daito ryu as taught by Yamamoto Kakuyoshi? Just curious.

    Thanks for the review though guys. Saves me some translation time!
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Originally posted by Nathan Scott
    Mr. Wollos,

    When you say "Yamamoto-den", do you mean the Daito ryu as taught by Yamamoto Kakuyoshi? Just curious.

    Thanks for the review though guys. Saves me some translation time!
    I'm not Mr. Wollos, but yes - that's the one.

    Best,

    Chris

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    Hello,

    Thank you for your reply, Chris.

    Kimura sensei also said that things could change, and that Gen could be different long time ago, but also since Mr.Keisatsu have been gone for so long, it could be that his memory is not accurate. In addition, he trained Yamamoto-den Daitoryu (yes, the one taught by Mr.Yamamoto Kakuyoshi), so it could be that some waza he mixed-up. Yamamoto-den and Sagawa-ha share some similarities in outlook of some waza forms.

    It's also important to add that Mr.Keisatsu formed his own system known as Aiki-Rentaikai, where he teaches 1st and 2nd Gen of Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu (that's what he advertises in "Hiden" magazine).

    Chris, thank you for your help, since my Japanese is really bad.

    sincerely,

    Paul
    Paul Wollos

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    Default gen?

    What is gen? That is interesting, is it unique to sagawa ha?
    Erin O'Neill

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    Default Really?

    You mean that the author trained with Sagawa sensei that long and never grasped aiki age? That is strange indeed. Sometimes when ones leaves a group, they become "wrong". Not to flame (never my intention) a great group like sagawa ha but it does seem strange that he wouldn't understand aiki age. When did kimura sensei train with sagwa sensei?

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    Hello

    Sagawa sensei arranged Daito-ryu techniques into 10 Gen, each gen about 200-250 waza. "Gen" - being explained as "source" or the "root". So one starts with ichigen (1st gen) and progresses from there on. However, everything from nigen on is taught on personal basis, being available only to those who are permitted to learn particular gen.

    Kimura sensei studied under Sagawa sensei for about 20 years. He has been taught all 10 gen by Sagawa sensei.

    It is very possible to study even 40 years and be unable to do Aiki. Since the core of Aiki-age is Aiki, then off-course it's difficult to grasp it. In Sagawa-ha Aiki-age and Aiki in general is completely different from any other Daito-ryu. Today, only Kimura sensei is able to do waza with Aiki, although all students are very capable. However, to capture the essence of Aiki-age is very difficult, although it is the first technique taught in Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu.

    Additionally, Sagawa sensei taught in the same way as Takeda Sokaku sensei: very secretive. Oral instruction was seldom given. Sagawa sensei emphasized that Aiki must be felt, and even if one is told what Aiki is, still one would not be able to capture it.

    It all sounds confusing or even unbelievable, however this is the way things are in Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu Aikibujutsu.

    Regards,

    Paul
    Paul Wollos

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    It is very possible to study even 40 years and be unable to do Aiki. Since the core of Aiki-age is Aiki, then off-course it's difficult to grasp it. In Sagawa-ha Aiki-age and Aiki in general is completely different from any other Daito-ryu. Today, only Kimura sensei is able to do waza with Aiki, although all students are very capable. However, to capture the essence of Aiki-age is very difficult, although it is the first technique taught in Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu.

    ****************************

    I have heard much the same thing from a different source. This alone has verified Mr. Wallos's experiences for me. I appreciate and applaud the first sentence above all.
    It concerns me not that people do not understand the differences in Aiki and why there are people who have been in systems for years who are basically "less than" their fellow adepts. Further, that there are complete systems that are deeper than others.
    Sagawa Dojo is very high level Aiki.
    Most consider it the best in the world.
    In the strangest of circumstance the one who is currently most popular is generally considered to have only mediocre understanding of Aiki by most, even considered to be low level in Aiki by some other Daito ryu styles out there. Though they are hopeful this will change over time and they support the effort.

    Aiki has nothing to do with rank, or time in. It takes decades of sweat and some people just don't get it.
    Even then, not all can "use it" outside of a dojo.

    So yet another (of the small number of people who have felt it) who voice that Sagawa Aiki is the best in the world.
    Very daring commentary Paul!
    You will at once be considered a fool, inexperienced, or ignorant along with a host of other views.
    Hold on, very shortly I am sure you will hear from people who think he was low level after visiting the dojo.
    I have found that over the years- feeling the technique of a host of Aikidos top men in the world, and then four different styles of Aikijujutsu doesn't allow for many agreement of opinions here-but has at least led me to various conclusions.
    Stay your course
    cheers
    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 14th December 2002 at 12:49.

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    Originally posted by Dan Harden
    Sagawa Dojo is very high level Aiki.
    I agree.

    Originally posted by Dan Harden
    Most consider it the best in the world.
    I think that most people have never seen Sagawa dojo's stuff, because the dojo has historically been so closed .

    Anyway, question for Paul - Yoshimaru Keisetsu lists himself as "Chokuden hachi-gen, okuden yon-dan". I understand the "gen" rankings, but does that mean that there is (or was) a seperate dan ranking structure at Sagawa dojo?

    Best,

    Chris

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    Dan Harden Guest

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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by Dan Harden
    Most consider it the best in the world.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    I think that most people have never seen Sagawa dojo's stuff, because the dojo has historically been so closed

    Chris Li


    ********************************

    I was reffering to those of us who I know have experienced it. "Most" have repeated the same comments about its superiority.

    Dan

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    Hello,

    Regarding Gen and Dan:

    There is a structure of 10 Dan ranks within Sagawa Dojo. Yet, it doesn't go together with Gen. The highest rank awarded in Sagawa Dojo (to best of my still limited knowledge) is Okuden Yondan.
    Perhaps because nobody really cared about dan rank, but they all wanted to learn as many Gen as possible.
    The practice of Gen was/is closed to only those, who were allowed to learn particular Gen.

    Mr.Keisatsu states that he has learnt 8th Gen...This I cannot discuss publicly.

    Dan,

    I sincerely thank yuo for your support. I know I am already being criticized, but it doesn't matter to me. I simply don't care.
    What's most important for me is training, understanding even a little of these wonderful techniques, and... training again.

    And, as Dan stated, I will always second:
    Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu Aiki is the best in the world.

    More daring statement:
    The students there are above the commonly understood/known level of any Daito-ryu.
    They work real hard. For so many years they repeat 6 basics for 2-hour long class. Every time. It takes real perseverance to do it.

    Paul
    Paul Wollos

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    Default Far removed

    I too have long held the belief that noone could match what the sagawa dojo had to offer, based on several things but I also have another question. Can Sagawa ha daito ryu be considered a seperate form of aikibujutsu now, considering the "gen" system and since it has changed over the years? Do they still faithfully teach hiden mokuroku, hien ogi,etc?

    Perhaps it is now sagawa ryu aikibujutsu? Certainly he would have been qualified to form his own method. Not that he did, but is his version of the art so far removed from other lines that it is no longer daito ryu? I only ask this out of curiousity and mean no disrespect.
    Erin O'Neill

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    I don't think Sagawa-ha Daitoryu is a separate system. Rather the opposite. Sagawa sensei has fathfully taught Daito-ryu preserving the teaching method as well as waza to what he's been learning from Takeda sensei.
    To give example of one basic waza: Ikkajo - the elbow is lifted and arm of opponent is folded. This is said to be the technique Takeda sensei used. It is similar to what we see in today's aikido and also in souden of Takumakai. Kodokai (although not stressing on locks) also uses this method. However it opposes the one taught in Daitokan (ippondori). Takeda sensei taught atemi to beginners for each waza, but Sagawa sensei stopped doing this. Takeda sensei said "Ikkajo is also Aiki", and Sagawa sensei spent many years to understand how to do Aiki in Ikkajo.
    When Sagawa sensei was about 70 years old he has invented another method of Aiki, allowing him to throw people instantly on contact. This was the major change.
    I don't know how Takeda sensei taught, but Sagawa sensei said about learning Gen's from Takeda sensei, while talking how much it costed in old times. So maybe the order of waza differs, but all waza are based on Takeda sensei's teachings it seems. However I may be wrong about it. Nobody knows how Takeda sensei's waza really looked like. It is quite pointless to say the word "mainline" today, since the system of aikibudo was designed by Takeda sensei's son, and the waza were changed along with some of the names. We simply cannot tell what Daitoryu was in times of Takeda sensei. There is a lot of material of Sagawa sensei' sayings in "Toumeina Chikara", the book written by Kimura sensei.
    Many people in Japan (and hopefully abroad) are convinced that the most complete/faithful Daitoryu system preserved in our times is Sagawa-ha Daitoryu indeed.
    The name Sagawa-ha was not always used. Sagawa Dojo's name was (and still is): Seiden Daito-ryu Aikibujutsu So-Hombu.

    Again, about mokuroku/densho: there is no branch of Daitoryu that teaches accordingly to densho. Takeda sensei never taught this way either. So Hiden Mokuroku, Hiden Ougi, etc, are just what they are: densho showing the curriculum of the art.

    Paul
    Paul Wollos

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