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Thread: Yoshimaru Keisetsu (Sadao) / Aiki Rentaikai

  1. #16
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    Thank you for the valuable post and info.
    Erin O'Neill

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    Since Keisetsu Yoshimaru's publications are becoming a popular subject recently (though some have been around for 10 years now), I thought I'd post a loose translation of the bio he provides for himself in the back of his books. Keep in mind though that these are what he claims, and may or may not be completely accurate:

    1950 - Received a shodan in Judo.

    1951 - Trained in Goju ryu karate-do. Senbukan Honbu Shihan-dai, Yondan.

    1961 - Trained with the Seiden Daito ryu Aikijujutsu Sohan [Sagawa]. Jikiden hachigen [true transmission 8th gen], Okuden [inner transmission] Yondan.

    1976 - Quit Sagawa dojo, began training in Tai Chi.

    1994 - Trained in Yamamoto Kakuyoshi (Kyoju Dairi) Daito ryu Aikijujutsu [aka: Yamamoto-den] under Sato Kinbei sensei (Kyoju Dairi).

    1998 - Received Kyoju Dairi in Daito ryu Aikijujutsu [Yamamoto-den].

    FWIW,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  3. #18
    megan Guest

    Default keisetsu yoshimaru books

    I have several books on daito ryu and am curious if anyone has these?
    I would love your opinion on the technical contents. I have heard people from the sagawa camp knock his understanding of "aiki but am leary of this, as he left their group to join the yammamoto-den.

    I wanted to know if the books contain many techniques and if they look like standard daito ryu? If they only show techniques that
    offer something new, then I'll purchase them. I have much of the material from Kondo and Okamoto sensei, would these be a good buy?

    Thank you for your time and interest in my post.

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    Hi Megan,

    I've merged your thread with this existing thread on the subject. Please have a look through it.

    Also, you might have a look at these links:

    Aiki books (Japanese language)

    Book: "The Hidden Roots of Aikido"/ Shiro Omiya

    Supplemental Technical/Technique Manuals

    Virtually everything discussable has been discussed here, so I think you'll find that the search engine will result in good times (in most cases).

    Regards,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Hi all. I was wondering whether or not Mr. Keisetsu is viewed as a legitimate teacher of Daito ryu. It was listed in the above post that he had been awarded kyoju dairi but was now teaching his own system.

    thanks
    Jeff
    Jeff Brown

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    Hello Jeff,

    I was wondering whether or not Mr. Keisetsu is viewed as a legitimate teacher of Daito ryu. It was listed in the above post that he had been awarded kyoju dairi but was now teaching his own system.
    I can't really say for a fact, but here is what we know. He claims to have trained at the Sagawa dojo for roughly 15 years, and hold fairly high ranks (Jikiden hachigen, Okuden Yondan). It sounds like there may be some differences of opinion about the accuracy of his claims regarding Sagawa dojo.

    After that, he trained in Tai Chi for almost 20 years before resuming DR under Sato Kinbei. Both Yamamoto and Sato both held Kyoju Dairi. After only four years of training, he was awarded Kyoju Dairi in the Yamamoto-den, which is pretty amazing. But assuming all of this is true, it would seem like Yoshimaru Sadao (Keisetsu is his pen name) would be pretty experienced.

    At the same time, any branch of Daito-ryu that is not led by someone at least Shihan level (which is above Kyoju Dairi) it generally not recognized as being legitimate, since they would not have received the higher levels of intitiation in the art yet. Menkyo kaiden (full transmission) in the art is preferred. From looking at his books, Yoshimaru appears to be interested in researching and comparing his Daito-ryu experience with that of Chinese arts and other cultures, similar to Sugawara Tetsutaka. It does not appear that he is teaching straight Daito-ryu (since he calls his art "Aiki Rentaikai" instead), and that combined with the fact that he left the Sagawa dojo supposedly after 15 years only to resume training under a less qualified branch of DR 20 years later (and quickly receive a teaching license from them) is cause for question and concern.

    Anyone else?
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 25th October 2006 at 01:54.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  7. #22
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    Default Update

    The following was recounted in the Japanese language book "Transparent Power", by Kimura Tatsuo:

    December 27th, 1976 (Showa 51) - one of Sagawa’s students, Yoshimaru Sadao (also known under the pen name Yoshimaru Keisetsu), wrote a letter to him saying, “As Sensei has pointed out, I am not talented in regards to the martial arts, and have come to realize my own limitations. Taking this opportunity, I think I will dare to begin a new life in another direction”, and with this he quit the Sagawa Dojo.

    According to the introduction in his book “Kankotsu-ken Nyumon”, published on March 20th, 1978 (Showa 53) - which is not publicly sold, but authored by Yoshimaru Keisetsu – late in 1976 (Showa 51) he became a student of Horibe Seishi, who was also a former student of Sagawa, and had learned up to the third level of direct teaching. Yoshimaru Keisetsu wrote several books describing Sagawa Sensei, most of which were published after Sagawa Sensei’s death.
    FWIW,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Default Super Secret Sagawa Dojo Aiki on Film?!!

    Ha! I knew that would get your attention!

    Can anyone identify the older gentleman in these clips?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=929VChlVZ5w

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwYyD9LyAYE

    He looks a bit to me like Yoshimaru Sadao (aka Keisetsu), but, if so, the years have not been kind. These clips appear to be of the same fellow (taken when he was a bit younger):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgoGeI1shnc

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9E5CsWUhcY

    The Aiki Rentaikai also has a webpage (homepage2.nifty.com/aiki-rentai/) in addition to the Youtube account. With all the interest in Sagawa's Daito-ryu, I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet (given that some of the videos have been around for over a year).

    Of course, the usual caveats apply:

    No one but Kimura got aiki from Sagawa. No one but Sagawa got aiki from Takeda. No one before Takeda had aiki because their eyes look funny. Takeda must have made it all up... but it's impossible learn without a teacher... just make sure it's not a Japanese teacher--they'll never teach westerners anything. So, I guess you should make sure its not a western teacher either--westerners never get the goods... unless, of course, they agree that no one else has the goods--only people with the goods claim that no one else has the goods. Everyone else's aiki is fake... but if it looks fake that means it's really good... unless, of course, it's fake. If you're curious which it is, just ask me and I'll tell you (hint: it's fake). If you think it looks at all like what your aikido teacher does, it's because you can't see the difference(s) on film. If you think it feels even a bit like what your aikido teacher does, it's because you aren't at a high enough level to tell the difference. Rest assured, though, everyone who has ever experienced it agrees they'll never go back... except for all those people who just visit once or twice and then go back to what they were doing before--life's too short to deal with those people (time is better spent on the internet!). Oh, and it's not magic, just physics--but not the kind that makes any sense!
    Richard Garrelts

  9. #24
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    The technics and principles look very much the same as in Kodokai and Roppokai , Takumakai has also showed these type of Waza´s , lately some Aikido shihan also beging to show similar waza
    as these waza´s called Aiki "something" ( aikiage-aikisage ect) i suspect they are waza on a high level , some wants to show them some not, some are able to do them some not.
    and yes you do have to have some knowlege /experience to se if the people/waza on a video are fake/or weak , or not that well trained yet.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ollie View Post
    yes you do have to have some knowlege /experience to se if the people/waza on a video are fake/or weak , or not that well trained yet.
    Of course, but I think the crux is experience with what? Is it enough, for example, to have trained in a similar art (such as aikido)? Or must one have direct experience in Daito-ryu? If so, how much? Does it have to be in a specific branch? With a particular teacher? During a particular period of the teacher's life? When the teacher is demonstrating a particular technique? On a particular day of the week? For the sixth (but not fifth) time? Does the acceptance of any of these criteria as sufficient depend on whether or not the person agrees that it "felt different"? Do we need to have been present when Sagawa was on his deathbed throwing around unnamed Olympian judoka (per the account of a longterm and almost certainly unbiased student)? Perhaps that was the only time he showed his real capabilities, thereby invalidating all the training experiences and opinions of so many students from years prior.

    If someone comes along and says "I didn't find it particularly different from the aikido I was doing before*," the response, almost invariably, is that he/she is not experienced enough to understand what was felt. But when "experienced enough" can have such wide ranging interpretations as those above, an environment has been created in which it is basically never acceptable to say, "I don't think there is anything particularly unusual here"; someone will always be able to say "well, I don't know what sensei showed you, but, when you were looking the other way, he showed us the real deal."

    But even so, I suspect I'll still continue to poke around as much as I can; it might just be the next teacher I meet who can show me how to thow around Olympic death-squad power-lifters on my deathbed. Not that any of this matters--I really just want to know whether the fellow in the clips is Yoshimaru Keisetsu.

    *or more correctly (if pedantically): "I think that what I felt/saw is well within a standard deviation of what I have felt/seen in aikido."
    Richard Garrelts

  11. #26
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    No one but Kimura got aiki from Sagawa. No one but Sagawa got aiki from Takeda. No one before Takeda had aiki because their eyes look funny. Takeda must have made it all up... but it's impossible learn without a teacher... just make sure it's not a Japanese teacher--they'll never teach westerners anything. So, I guess you should make sure its not a western teacher either--westerners never get the goods... unless, of course, they agree that no one else has the goods--only people with the goods claim that no one else has the goods. Everyone else's aiki is fake... but if it looks fake that means it's really good... unless, of course, it's fake. If you're curious which it is, just ask me and I'll tell you (hint: it's fake). If you think it looks at all like what your aikido teacher does, it's because you can't see the difference(s) on film. If you think it feels even a bit like what your aikido teacher does, it's because you aren't at a high enough level to tell the difference. Rest assured, though, everyone who has ever experienced it agrees they'll never go back... except for all those people who just visit once or twice and then go back to what they were doing before--life's too short to deal with those people (time is better spent on the internet!). Oh, and it's not magic, just physics--but not the kind that makes any sense!
    Ha ha ha!! That is REALLY funny! Someone has been spending too much time reading the internet forums...

    The clips posted are interesting. I can't say for sure if they are Yoshimaru or not, but the age looks about right. The first two clips make reference to "Gojuryu Koden" (old teachings of hard-soft style). This could be a descriptive phrase they use for the techniques, or, it could be a reference to Goju-ryu karate, which Yoshimaru used to study. I've never seen techniques like those in karate though. The last two clips are striking techniques, and the demonstrator definitely has a karate feel to the strikes when performed to speed.

    Thanks for pointing these out.

    I'm going to merge this thread with an existing one on the subject to facilitate future searches.

    Regards,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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