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Thread: Yamate ryu Aikijutsu/ Fredrick J. Lovret

  1. #1
    emokidjin Guest

    Default no yamate here i guess

    hmm...yes can of worms..can of worms...thats what people will say when i say something about yamate ryu..which i am no longer a part of..and havent been for a while..but what is the status on it now...i want to see if other people know or what they think. Besides the face that i was called by my sensei and told not to post anything else on this site about it otherwise i would be kicked out the art, which i thought was kind of weird, does anyone have any other weird things that happened with them and this art? if so please tell..thanks

    sincerely
    F. Beshara

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    Not much time to visit the discussion groups. Would rather spend my free time on the mat. I only train 14 hours each week in addition to my studies outside of class. Having a great time. Training with good people.

    Wish you the same.

    Amos Smith
    Chicago Budokai

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    As someone who has had some rather choice words with some of the members of this group in the past, I will say this...I do know personally some rather fine budoka who have come out of this group. They now train with people who have absolutely no blemishes at all on their integrity and skill, and they are doing very well.

    I'm not sure it benefits anyone to rehash this subject again. The past discussions are available to all...why not read them, and make up your own mind.

    Ron Tisdale

  4. #4
    J. Sabella Guest

    Post Lovret and the Yamate/Tenshin ryu

    I have been searching far and wide about this man and these arts. Anything I find is either 100% good or 100% bad. I've read as many posts of this site as I could regarding this subject but all I could find were posts saying to read other posts that I could not find.

    If someone could finally give me the "low-down" on this ryu or direct me to someplace that would have information about them it would be much appreiciated.

    I apologize in advance if this subject has been done to death but I'm just curious and perhaps I'm missing something with with this crazy internet thing. I just cannot find the threads many of you were talking about concerning Lovret and his ryus. Most just vaguely alluded to something with no concrete info.

    Thank you.

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    Default Beautiful Violence...

    J. Sabella,

    I hope you don't mind, but I merged your thread with an existing one in this forum. Not only does this help me consolidate subjects, but it will also increase the possibility of getting responses from those inside the group who have posted to the original thread.

    It will be tough for you to find an authoratative answer to your question. Those who follow Lovret will defend him, regardless of what the public opinion of him is. Those who do not like Lovret will often slam him just for the sake of slamming someone they don't like (I'm guilty of that as well).

    The following is from my own experience (I've never met/trained with Lovret or his people):

    The arts taught by Lovret have "very questionable" lineage claims, as boasted by Lovret. To my knowledge, nothing has ever been provided by him or his group to substantiate these claims. A well known Western Budo-ka, Donn Draeger (a student of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu under Otake Risuke Shihan), once sent to Lovret at Otake's request a cease and desist letter to stop using elements of their art name in their own sword art name (now simply called "Tenshin ryu" or maybe "Itto tenshin ryu").

    I have a copy of Lovret's book "The Way and the Power" (Paladin Press, 1987 - OOP), and in it there is a kakejiku photo found on pages 44, 135, and 196 says (in bad Japanese shuji) "Itto tenshin katori shinto ryu kenjutsu". Katori shinto ryu is the root name of the art, and that is why Otake asked Lovret not to use it since he was not authorized or qualified to do so.

    The entry in Aikido Journal's Encyclopedia of Aikido (ca. 1991) says:

    LOVRET, FREDRICK J.

    (b. 1 July 1941). Hiden Mokuroku, Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu-Kodokai [rank authenticated]. Menkyo Kaiden, Yamate-ryu Aikijutsu. Teaching certificate in Itto Tenshin-ryu Kenjutsu. Martial arts instructor and writer. Founder, editor, and publisher of Bujin, a magazine published in the 1970s. Founder, and present editor and publisher of Taseki Publications. Author/publisher of numerous books on martial arts training (see bibl. ). Taseki Publishing Co. , P. O. Box 33305, San Diego, CA 92103 USA.
    I seem to remember hearing that Lovret had some Aikido experience as well, but I can't confirm that. The Daito ryu Hiden Mokuroku he received though was awarded by Yonezawa Katsumi, and ex-Kodokai instructor who issued a number of unauthorized Hiden Mokuroku outside of Japan to people who he thought might be important. From what I understand, the Kodokai honbu reluctantly acknowledges these awards since they were issued directly by a representative of theirs at that time.

    No idea who may have awarded the Menkyo Kaiden or "teaching certificate" he claims, or if there are any photos of these that have ever been offered.

    Lovret has written a few books, including a "Budo Jiten [Dictionary]" (1993, Taseki Publishing - OOP), and I will say that there is a lot of good information provided in these as well as his defunct newsletter. Unfortunately, there is about an equal amount of somewhat misunderstood/not-quite-right information in them as well, and as such, a substantial amount of budo experience is required to properly filter the good stuff from the slightly off stuff.

    As far as technical curriculum and ability goes, I only have his video "Hiden Aikijutsu" to go from. Suffice it to say that this is in the top 3 videos I have in my collection of special videos that are offered during various drunken budo-con screenings. Interestingly, Mr. Lovret appears to have a tendency to speak like Cain from the series "Kung Fu".

    Great series - I have some of the episodes on tape still. Love the flashbacks with Master Po.

    Anyway, that is about as fair and objective as I can get about this. FWIW, I have heard that some of Lovret's students are nice, serious, sincere individuals.

    One of our moderators here either is currently or used to be affiliated with Lovret, and I know that Neil Yamamoto, who is a student of Bernie Lau, also has first hand knowledge of Lovret as well. Bernie Lau produced three videos about "Aikijutsu", that featured three different groups. Lovret's was one of them (Hiden Aikijutsu), and Lau appears in two of these videos as well as in "The Way and the Power" book. I suspect he has detailed files.

    If any of ya'll want to discuss, correct or expand on this subject, feel free to do so. We should have a thread in AJJ to cover this subject. But keep in mind that I'll lock off and/or delete posts if anyone gets too out of hand - which is easy to do with this subject.

    Mr. Beshara - here you go. Enjoy the publicity!

    Regards,
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 27th December 2002 at 02:52.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  6. #6
    Dan Harden Guest

    Default

    I echo Nathans comments in that I don't want to discuss the man or his students- just the art.
    The art which he called by two different names in one title. Katori shinto, and Itto ryu is in fact neither. OK so what?
    Heres the what.
    There is no Japanese art known to anyone on the planet with that name.
    Katory shinto ryu is a world apart from Itto ryu in approach, execution, intent and technique. Only a very ignorant man would ever lump them together, or not laugh out loud at the idea.
    And- the photos in the book were all Omori ryu.
    The photographer who took the pictures stated that Lovret was using a book to pose from. He had the photographer actually verify certain poses for their consistency with the book.
    The body arts
    Many of the mokuroku and gradings from Yonozawa on the East coast were bought or handed out with little training. Unfortunately many exprienced artist were tipped off and knew that about him.
    Others were most certainly earned through diligent training and they get justifiably angry when they are lumped in with the possiers!
    It was a rather sad era in Daito ryu here for a while. That has been fixed.
    At any rate go train in Daito ryu then watch Lovret. We won't have to say a word to each other.
    If you sum it up and add in several stories of the people who trained with Lovret you will arrive at your own opinion.
    Good luck in your training
    Dan

  7. #7
    J. Sabella Guest

    Thumbs up Thanks

    Mr. Scott,
    I do not mind at all, I probably should have just posted this question in this thread in the first place. Thank you.

    The information both you and Mr. Harden present is very interesting, thank you very much. While I do not want to encourage wars of words, I welcome your opinions as well as facts, however opinions backed up with facts sure are nice. . It seems like that blind samurai loyalty still exists in the 21st century and sometimes that is a nice thing to see, but in our pursuit for the truth...

    At any rate, from what I gather from your posts and vague references from other posts in different threads, it seems the real beef with Lovret and his arts is lineage and certain "stories" that I keep hearing about...

    All I can say is do tell.

    Thank you all very much.

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    Everyone has a right to be "less than impressive" as a martial artist goes. Critisizing such a thing publicly is not necessary in my opinion (except when specifically discussing the subject).

    However, the topic of credentials and "truthful advertising" is of concern to anyone seriously involved in martial arts. Being a trained martial artist is not the same thing as being a trained teacher. Technically, these skill sets are different, and require direct or indirect experience in order to become adept at them. These days, most arts have a teaching license that is seperate from their rank, or at least, a letter from their teacher authorizing them to teach (isshoku-jo). This type of formalization is something that needs to be increased and encouraged in modern times for those that intend to teach "the public". Studying martial arts is dangerous enough without adding the risk of studying under someone who is not qualified specifically to teach them.

    Also, the curriculum and historical claims of the art (including who your teacher is/was) are of concern. There is an implied trust, as well as I suppose a perceived "pedigree" in studying an art that has a proven background of some kind. To claim such a thing falsley is considered fraudulent, and "false advertising".

    All these things take advantage of a generally uninformed public/consumer in a field that is not regulated by any governing body (yet). That is why I don't mind documenting these types of discussions in forums such as these for interested parties to research easily.

    However, lets keep this semi-professional. I really don't want to encourage people to sling dirty laundry just for the sake of trashing someone who is easy to trash - whether they have it coming or not. Take it off line or to a local pub or budo gathering (and don't forget to invite me!).

    Regards,
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 27th December 2002 at 05:41.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Default Devil’s Due

    One other thing of note is that Lovret was “out and about” very early on. Long before many of us sophisticated types showed up. As many old timers will sometimes attest. Back in the day it was a small bunch indeed and if one sticks around long enough one sees just about everything - both bad and good.
    Doug Walker
    Completely cut off both heads,
    Let a single sword stand against the cold sky!

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    Default

    Yeah, I've heard that kind of angle before. People like him enabled more of us to hear of the terms and ideas of arts like "aikijutsu" and "kenjutsu", so in a way we should feel some degree of indebtedness. Maybe without "pioneers" (with varied ethics), the arts might not have reached the US during the periods that they did.

    On the other hand, deception is deception. Sometimes good can come from bad, but usually people don't feel that such a by-product justifies negative actions.

    BTW, I have received confirmation that the moderator here I was referring to is in fact NOT affiliated with Lovret's groups anymore. Don't bug him.

    Regards,
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 27th December 2002 at 20:06.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Default FYI

    Regarding the references that were made to the kenjutsu system promoted by Mr. Lovret, here are links to some discussions that were held on the subject on a sword list a few years ago.

    http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/...ido-l&P=R11137

    http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/...o-l&D=0&P=3572
    Cady Goldfield

  12. #12
    MarkF Guest

    Default

    In the second link to a post by Meik Skoss, he describes a technique called tsubame gaeshi (Swallow Counter). There is a taijutsu nage-waza by this name, interestingly in the shinmeisho no waza of Kodokan wajutsu. Skoss says "supposedly" when he speaks of the possibility that Sasaki Kojiro devised it, but the discription is remarkably similar to the Kodokan nage-waza. The difference would be a zzzt forward and than back and then to the side as tori is helplessly sweeping air and getting his own foot swept followed by the body caught for the moment in mid-air. It looks like a Curly-jutsu of stepping on a banana peel, too, but it fits Meik's description as well. Sorry to put them both in the same sentence but I think both are considered to have been done early in their ryu.

    Anyway, I thought the description fit the throw really well even if done with a sword. The mental picture is there, anyway.


    Mark

  13. #13
    kusanku Guest

    Default

    There is also a Karate torite throwing technique called by the same name, illustrated in Funakoshi's Karate Do Kyohan,One intercepts a punch to the face area with an x block, then steps back and around into a kneeling stance with the captured hand firmly held while the other hand as a fist chops down along the inside of the captured ar, result, opponet is spun and flalls helplessly on back right in front of now kneeling position, ready for backfist atemi coup de grace to point between eyes(metsubushi).

    Technique works dandy for real, too.Especially if attacker does not expect it or does not even know it exists.Easy throw to do.

    Makes you wonder about the connections here betwen the arts, doesn't it?

    But, hey, is it Aiki?

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    Originally posted by kusanku
    Makes you wonder about the connections here betwen the arts, doesn't it?

    But, hey, is it Aiki?
    Not aiki, but maybe good ol' jujutsu.
    Cady Goldfield

  15. #15
    J. Sabella Guest

    Default

    So it is probably not worth training with Lovret's group if one had the chance....

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