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Thread: BJJ - Is it really Jujutsu?

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Judo Researcher View Post
    ...Modern 'form' of jujutsu does not exist!
    Excuse me for being blunt, but...nonsense!
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Judo Researcher View Post

    In essence, Jigoro Kano was right in quashing people's opinion naming his system "Kano jujutsu" and rather, he officially named it to Kodokan Judo!
    And the Gracies/Machados officially named their art Brazilian Jiu-jitsu..

    You seem to be quite taken with the whole budo/bujutsu dichotomy, per Donn Draeger. This topic has been discussed in some depth before by folks far more qualified than you or I - a search should produce many results

    It seems you are saying that no one is entitled to use the term unless they are doing koryu jujutsu? What of those 'grey area' schools such as Daito Ryu? other post-meiji schools like Hakko Ryu?

    Do you think it's your place to tell others what to call their art?

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    Quote Originally Posted by B.Finn View Post
    And the Gracies/Machados officially named their art Brazilian Jiu-jitsu..

    You seem to be quite taken with the whole budo/bujutsu dichotomy, per Donn Draeger. This topic has been discussed in some depth before by folks far more qualified than you or I - a search should produce many results

    It seems you are saying that no one is entitled to use the term unless they are doing koryu jujutsu? What of those 'grey area' schools such as Daito Ryu? other post-meiji schools like Hakko Ryu?

    Do you think it's your place to tell others what to call their art?
    - You seem to be like you're the authority to say that the term 'jujutsu' can be used in some guy who will make a school and calls its own martial art as Jujutsu. From how I understand you, the difference between bujutsu and budo is irrelevent and it places no value. So that, people who was trained in any budo art can claim theirs is also Jujutsu. Therefore, histoy is invalid if that's the case. Sorry, neither I, nor a Judoka who will defend its history, will agree with it. The dichotomy is valuable in the distinction with regards to what's bujutsu and what's not!

    To be honest, one is not entitled to call its own a jujutsu school if the ryuha doesn't stem or began from the koryu before the meiji period.

    One more thing, just b/c you call your art 'jujutsu' does not mean you are jujutsuka. The Gracies and Francas alone do not practice such characteristics that embody the koryu. The last time I checked, Mitsuyo/Esai Maeda taught them Kodokan Judo. So my question to you is, are you in of such stature to officially claim any modern or post-meiji art as Jujutsu?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Judo Researcher View Post
    ...one is not entitled to call its own a jujutsu school if the ryuha doesn't stem or began from the koryu before the meiji period.
    Why not? What do you believe is inherent in the word jujutsu that implies pre-Meiji lineage?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Judo Researcher View Post
    ...So my question to you is, are you in of such stature to officially claim any modern or post-meiji art as Jujutsu?
    Are YOU of such stature to officially claim that modern or post-Meiji arts are NOT jujutsu? Please provide documentation of that official recognition.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens View Post
    Are YOU of such stature to officially claim that modern or post-Meiji arts are NOT jujutsu? Please provide documentation of that official recognition.
    - Are you of such stature to officially claim post-meiji arts as Jujutsu? Please provide documentation of that official recognition. I don't have to provide nor give any documentation b/c I have none and its practically useless. But then again, why did Jigoro Kano refuted those who call his martial art "Kano Jujutsu" and officially named it to "Kodokan Judo?" You tell me and that's my final answer to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Judo Researcher View Post
    - You seem to be like you're the authority to say that the term 'jujutsu' can be used in some guy who will make a school and calls its own martial art as Jujutsu. From how I understand you, the difference between bujutsu and budo is irrelevent and it places no value. So that, people who was trained in any budo art can claim theirs is also Jujutsu. Therefore, histoy is invalid if that's the case. Sorry, neither I, nor a Judoka who will defend its history, will agree with it. The dichotomy is valuable in the distinction with regards to what's bujutsu and what's not!

    To be honest, one is not entitled to call its own a jujutsu school if the ryuha doesn't stem or began from the koryu before the meiji period.

    One more thing, just b/c you call your art 'jujutsu' does not mean you are jujutsuka. The Gracies and Francas alone do not practice such characteristics that embody the koryu. The last time I checked, Mitsuyo/Esai Maeda taught them Kodokan Judo. So my question to you is, are you in of such stature to officially claim any modern or post-meiji art as Jujutsu?
    Have you ever talked to a native Japanese speaker about this issue? Japanese folks do not tend to use terms like jujutsu, judo, aikido, kendo as what I would call "proper nouns" in English. They are looser terms, descriptive. I practice Yagyu Shinkage ryu. My Japanese mother in law says I do "koryu kendo." One of my Daito ryu sempai once asked me what drew me to "Daito ryu aikido." Both meaning....I am a guy who does these things as a serious lifelong practice, it's a thing I train constantly in an open-ended fashion, rather than a course I would take in a semester. And certainly not referring to specific martial arts by the use of the terms "kendo" and "aikido".

    Furthermore, few of the koryu jujutsu schools were termed jujutsu until the Meiji period! And a lot of the schools that were termed jujutsu in those original surveys were unhappy about it, because almost all schools known as koryu jujutsu these days were originally sogo bujutsu. It's just that by the late Meiji period they had lost a lot of their weapons and were best known for their empty hand training.

    Last but not least, would you try to say that Nihon Jujutsu is not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff Judge View Post
    Have you ever talked to a native Japanese speaker about this issue? Japanese folks do not tend to use terms like jujutsu, judo, aikido, kendo as what I would call "proper nouns" in English. They are looser terms, descriptive. I practice Yagyu Shinkage ryu. My Japanese mother in law says I do "koryu kendo." One of my Daito ryu sempai once asked me what drew me to "Daito ryu aikido." Both meaning....I am a guy who does these things as a serious lifelong practice, it's a thing I train constantly in an open-ended fashion, rather than a course I would take in a semester. And certainly not referring to specific martial arts by the use of the terms "kendo" and "aikido".

    Furthermore, few of the koryu jujutsu schools were termed jujutsu until the Meiji period! And a lot of the schools that were termed jujutsu in those original surveys were unhappy about it, because almost all schools known as koryu jujutsu these days were originally sogo bujutsu. It's just that by the late Meiji period they had lost a lot of their weapons and were best known for their empty hand training.

    Last but not least, would you try to say that Nihon Jujutsu is not?
    - Thank You for the insight. I haven't asked a Japanese before regarding the names but you did picked up an interesting fact concerning the term 'koryu jujutsu'. Well, I would not claim Nihon Jujutsu is not. No disrespect to all Japanese Martial arts. I do love them. However, the direction of this thread is the question "BJJ - is it really jujutsu?" - Honestly, I am Judoka and I believe that Kano's system was in fact the martial art that is to be placed as bearers of what the Gracies, the Francas, and their students are doing. So to make a claim that what the Gracies and Francas were doing as Brazilian Judo, yes it is Judo! I will make a claim of it and so can other Judoka also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Judo Researcher View Post
    - Are you of such stature to officially claim post-meiji arts as Jujutsu? Please provide documentation of that official recognition.
    It doesn't work that way. I don't have to have authority to claim there are post-Meiji arts that teach jujutsu; the schools themselves call themselves such. You, on the other hand, are saying that those schools have no right to use that name, and so it is incumbent upon you to provide evidence of your authority over those schools.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Judo Researcher View Post
    - You seem to be like you're the authority to say that the term 'jujutsu' can be used in some guy who will make a school and calls its own martial art as Jujutsu. From how I understand you, the difference between bujutsu and budo is irrelevent and it places no value. So that, people who was trained in any budo art can claim theirs is also Jujutsu. Therefore, histoy is invalid if that's the case. Sorry, neither I, nor a Judoka who will defend its history, will agree with it. The dichotomy is valuable in the distinction with regards to what's bujutsu and what's not!

    To be honest, one is not entitled to call its own a jujutsu school if the ryuha doesn't stem or began from the koryu before the meiji period.

    One more thing, just b/c you call your art 'jujutsu' does not mean you are jujutsuka. The Gracies and Francas alone do not practice such characteristics that embody the koryu. The last time I checked, Mitsuyo/Esai Maeda taught them Kodokan Judo. So my question to you is, are you in of such stature to officially claim any modern or post-meiji art as Jujutsu?
    I certainly never claimed any sort of authority - in fact I specifically mentioned that others who are authorities on this subject, have discussed it at length here in the past. In short, like Mr Judge said above - you don't seem to understand much of the language, nomenclature or history of these arts. Which makes your decision to declare that "one is not entitled to call an art a jujutsu school if.." strange. Like Mr Owens said - if you expect to impose your view on others and how they behave, YOU are the one who will be expected to provide a justification for that.

    I have no interest in modern jujutsu - I made no attempt to "officially claim any modern or post-meiji art as jujutsu"

    I asked you why you feel you have the right to tell anyone what to call their art? I note that you didn't answer my question regarding other 'less modern' but still decidedly post-meiji arts - are Daito Ryu, Hakko Ryu, Danzan Ryu etc not entitled to call 'their' arts jujutsu?

    To return to my original suggestion - please do continue to research and learn. Maybe a little bit more before you try to impose your views on others. There are many threads here at e-budo discussing the budo/bujutsu dichotomy as presented by Draeger. Although it does provide the layman with a basic introduction to the differences between koryu bugei and gendai budo, to apply it as some sort of dogmatic law can seem strange, particularly to those who actually know a bit about the arts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Judo Researcher View Post
    - Thank You for the insight. I haven't asked a Japanese before regarding the names but you did picked up an interesting fact concerning the term 'koryu jujutsu'. Well, I would not claim Nihon Jujutsu is not. No disrespect to all Japanese Martial arts. I do love them. However, the direction of this thread is the question "BJJ - is it really jujutsu?" - Honestly, I am Judoka and I believe that Kano's system was in fact the martial art that is to be placed as bearers of what the Gracies, the Francas, and their students are doing. So to make a claim that what the Gracies and Francas were doing as Brazilian Judo, yes it is Judo! I will make a claim of it and so can other Judoka also.
    Kano's Judo is jujutsu though.

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    Having read a few threads on here over the years I have learned one or two things.

    Sometimes people who know the most, say the least. Sometimes those who know the least, speak the loudest. I tend to talk a lot, but I have learned that I know nothing. I believe that Research is usually an activity where reading and listening are preferred. Some of the most well-qualified authors and scholars of the martial arts have made contributions on this forum. I don't remember any of them being quite so determined to tell us what is right and what is wrong. Many of them make a point of accepting that there are alternative interpretations, but give citations and references to back up their own position.

    Still, it is nice to see some activity here, isn't it.
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
    I'll think of a proper sig when I get a minute...

    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

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    The other night, a guy I practice Aikido with asked me about a 'move' he saw, and if it was jujutsu.

    Well, the technique wasn't exactly a technique I have done, but it was close to techniques I have done in two different jujutsu schools. I said, "well yes, and no," I could see this technique performed in jujutsu, karate, perhaps even in some aikido schools, maybe many more. $.02.
    Joseph Dostie

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