Likes Likes:  12
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 87

Thread: BJJ - Is it really Jujutsu?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    376
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default BJJ - Is it really Jujutsu?

    I have met a couple of BJJ practicioners here in Korea, nothing higher than blue belt, and have been more than impressed with their stuff. I should say, I have done a mixture of Judo, Jujutsu, and Aikido over twenty years. I am a bit rusty at Judo having not done it four four years (injury) and they were all over me on the ground (their chosen territory), but couldn't do much against me standing up, or so I felt. Anyway, my thought is this. No one would call modern sport Judo as Jujutsu nowadays, and from what I have seen of BJJ, it has even less in common with Jujutsu - in the Jujutsu sense that I practiced it - atemi, kicks, throws, weapons and so on. Sure, BJJ is excellent in competition, and I wish I had the time to learn it to improve my groundwork, but is that all it is? Groundwork? If so, can it be really called Jujutsu? For comparison, think of those Aikidoka that say Tomiki Aikido should be called something else - not - Aikido - because of its competitive element (I disagree here as I have seen Tomiki stylists do great Aiki). My limited impression thus far of BJJ is - "wrestling in a keokogi". Please enlighten me to what other stuff (than groundwork) exists in the BJJ curriculum. Any links to informative sites appreciated.

    Rupert Atkinson

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    162
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default Re: BJJ - Is it really Jujutsu?

    Originally posted by rupert
    My limited impression thus far of BJJ is - "wrestling in a keokogi".
    That from what I've seen is about right. If you want to add something else to you repertoir, then that would be all you needed to do. I myself would prefer to take some judo to learn more ground techniques (BJJ came from Judo anyway).
    "Qasim" Uriah Gardner

    "I'd like to think there are always... possibilities."

  3. Likes El Lobo Mas Solitario liked this post
  4. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    798
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    I'd sure hate to argue the point with a Gracie! Especially Helio, the Grandmaster- He could still probably wipe the floor with some of us youngbucks.

    I grappled for about four years, and since we did BJJ- I don't know the exact answer. I have never done straight Judo. I have played with a Judo student once,....they seemed to want to keep upright, but had no problem with going to the ground...


    Jon Gillepsie
    Jon Gillespie

  5. #4
    MarkF Guest

    Default

    Helio isn't the "Grandmaster" it was taught to his older brother, Carlos. Early on, Helio learned by watching Carlos.

    BJJ is Brazilian Jiu jitsu, and is not a Japanese budo, thus the kept misspelling of jujutsu.

    Interestingly, if you can find them, the two earliest books on BJJ, written by Carlos Gracie, covers standing technique almost entirely. They came out in the 1940s. I've heard at least one of them is available, but the other is hard to find.

    There is nothing in BJJ not found in ground fighting technique of Kodokan judo. Instead of calling it "passing the guard" judoka call it getting around the legs.

    If you want to learn groundwork with, depending on who is teaching it, about seven tachiwaza, BJJ or any submission grappling style is fine for that purpose.
    *****

    Yes, I wouldn't want to argue about anything which would end in another kind of argument, but Royce Gracie was recently beaten by an Olympic Judoka, wasn't he? That wouldn't be the first time a family member was beaten by judoka, either, but making a public spectcle of yourself because you fell "I was robbed" doesn't help one's credability, either.

    Other than that, such matches are going to be featured in January or the coming months on HBO. I mean, the NHB/UFC-style contest in a ring or cage.
    ******

    One can always go to a kosen judo dojo in Japan and really concentrate on the technique of newaza (Katame-waza).


    Mark

  6. Likes El Lobo Mas Solitario liked this post
  7. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    798
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    I remember when the Gracies started 'appearing' in NHB matches, they looked unstoppable. Now everyone is studying how to fight on the ground, at least a little. It reminds me very much of the ninja boom of the eighties.-Everyone taught "stealth" in their dojo. Now the trend is grappling of some kind. Mark, do you think that BJJ could be considered a "Judo school of thought"? Considering
    There is nothing in BJJ not found in ground fighting technique of Kodokan judo.
    Thanks for your responses.

    Jon Gillespie
    Jon Gillespie

  8. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    208
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Rupert, I think you've hit the nail on the head. BJJ isn't jujutsu in the sense we're accustomed to thinking about it. It looks to me like another form of judo, although judo itself technically is a jujutsu ryu and was known for decades as Kano jujutsu. I'd like to know where Carlos Gracie got his training. I'd bet it was from a judo guy. I think he just changed the name to JJ to be different.

  9. #7
    Hissho Guest

    Default

    BJJ calls itself jujutsu because back in the day when it came to Brazil, judo and jujutsu (jiujutsu) were used interchangeably. In many ways it is old judo, but they have gone in a very different direction because of the environment in which it has developed.

    It can be as brash and physical as wrestling, or as soft and fluid as the softest of jujutsu - just like judo can be. It all depends on who is doing it. The softest FUNCTIONAL jujutsu I have ever felt were at the hands of Toby Threadgill and BJJ black belt Juliano Prado. Their level of softness in application was indeed very close. Juliano's softness was during fully antagonistic randori, I might add.

    It may not be a Japanese budo, but it is directly descended from, and another expression of, judo principles, which are Japanese budo.

    BTW,

    Royce's "loss" was NOT a legitimate one. If you see the video, it is plainly obvious that Yoshida had nothing on him. The stoppage was B.S, and he had every right to complain.

    Judo does not need bad calls to "win" against BJJ. Judoka should not be proud of that "win" because it was without merit. I would rather see Yoshida, or any other top level judoka, win convincingly and without question (by tap, unconsciousness, or injury, as the case may be) instead of resting on laurels that were not earned.

    Kit LeBlanc

  10. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Annapolis, MD
    Posts
    41
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Well said, Kit.

    Rob
    Rob Canestrari

  11. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    376
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Originally posted by Jon G.
    I'd sure hate to argue the point with a Gracie! Especially Helio, the Grandmaster- He could still probably wipe the floor with some of us youngbucks.

    Jon Gillepsie
    I have to say, I would not like to argue with him either, and I am sure what he learned was Jujutsu. But what has BJJ become? All I hear / see on the net is groundwork groundwork groundwork. What about standing techniques, weapons practice, striking, multiple attackers and the like? Or is it just wrestling in a suit? And with that in mind, a South African acquantance of mine said back home everyone wears T shirts or vests implying, he didn'think training in a keikogi was useful for him.

    Rupert Atkinson

  12. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    79
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Where Carlos Gracie get his training...

    It was asked earlier where Carlos Gracie received his training. Well, according to the latest book and interviews of Rorion Gracie, it goes like this:

    The famous story: Carlos Gracie helped a Japanese gentleman by the name of Maeda establish himself in Brazil. Now Maeda was a student of Kano Sensei back in Japan (he was apparently very, very good). Apparently, one of the established rules of the Kodokan was not to compete in contests pitting Judo against other styles, but Maeda was going around the world kicking some serious butt. The theory put forth is that when Maeda taught Carlos Judo, he didn't use the name out of respect for his teacher, Kano Sensei. Additionally, Maeda was apparently re-instituting some of the original ju jutsu techniques that had been removed by Kano Sensei for safety purposes (remember, Kano was a teacher and was making a sport too!)
    So what was taught to the Gracie family was Judo but named Jujutsu. Later, with some improvisations by Helio gracie, the art became known as Gracie Jiu Jitsu. According to Helio, all Brazilian jiu jitsu is Gracie Jiu Jutsu, just without the name.
    JJM

  13. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Posts
    798
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Does anyone know if any western wrestling was involved?(In the developement of the art)

    Jon Gillespie
    Jon Gillespie

  14. #12
    Benjamin Peters Guest

    Default

    Jon, accordingly to a source found here http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/5389/ the art of BJJ may have had some influence in its origins, and perhaps even more recently:
    " Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is a martial art indigenous to Brazil. It was founded and developed by the Gracie family. Carlos Gracie learned jiu-jitsu from a Japanese judoka named Maeda who emigrated to Brazil. The art's roots are derived from pre-war Kodokan Judo, western wrestling, and Maeda's own insights into combat."

    Further, it is noted that Maeda had various NHB bouts in the west against the likes of catch-as-catch-can wrestlers. http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/5389/maeda.html

    I think it is safe to say that because of the amount of development in their expertise, it would have been possible that they adopted elements of western wrestling:
    " Between Carlos and Helio, they had many sons and grandsons, all of whom were heavily involved in the practice and development of the family profession. As a result, there were always plenty of training partners in the house or at the academy, providing great opportunities for innovation and the free exchange of ideas. Brothers, uncles, sons, grandsons and students all came together to take part in the development of the art. The Gracies were essentially a large research team that studied and analyzed unarmed combat." http://www.baxiroushu.com/pages/historybjj3.htm

    As far as the Machados are concerned, I have heard that they have adopted takedown techniques of the wrestern variety:
    " Since basing themselves in the United States, the Brothers have continued to develop their grappling style, branching out into all styles of grappling in search of new techniques and concepts." http://www.machadojj.com/torrance_academy/

    As for the effectiveness of the style: does anyone here in the koryu jujutsu forum doubt the effectiveness of the method? Why, in your opinion would it/does it live up to your expectations? How does your koryu compare in a fight?

  15. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    376
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Originally posted by Benjamin Peters

    As for the effectiveness of the style: does anyone here in the koryu jujutsu forum doubt the effectiveness of the method? Why, in your opinion would it/does it live up to your expectations? How does your koryu compare in a fight?
    That is kind of my point. I don't think they can be compared because they have become completely different.

    Rupert Atkinson

  16. #14
    Benjamin Peters Guest

    Default

    That is kind of my point. I don't think they can be compared because they have become completely different.
    ok rupert, I see your point more clearly now (forgot to read through the previous posts properly).

    it's not my place to say (this is not a put down on anyone's contributions here), but sometimes arguing over academic issues like the meaning/spelling and usage words (especially romanized japanese) takes away from what martial arts can contribute to skills.

    as far as koryu, i would suggest that through similar training, it contributes a great deal to what context the art was formulated under. for instance, was the art formulated for the battlefield or was it designed for close-quarter-confines; was the art designed to be percussive etc etc. so stylized standup skills are what we normally take from the arts.

    same can be said for bjj, why was it made? we can tell it was formulated with one-to-one combat in mind. nothing wrong with that, but to take away what it has added on the basis of words and definitions is a little immature. so submission ground wrestling is what we take most from this aspect.

    a question - would it make that much of a difference in your life if they called it submission wrestling instead of jujutsu (and variants in romanji)?

    i'm sure then some of you would still be referring back to jujutsu roots if they did change it so what gives? ok - i can hear you say "well, it's not fair, it's like false advertising!" . to that i say, well, what if a japanese master designed the art (setting aside ko-sen judo) and called it jujutsu, would you budge then?

    i am sure, both are very effective in their own contexts. all theories are sound in a dojo scenario, and application in defense situations mean modification of tactics. from what little i know, bjj-gracie do cover standup self-defense to a limited degree.

    in the end - why worry about spelling? i'm sure the brasilians don't - they probably just concentrate on their methods.

    sorry for being such a downer on the whole thread - i mean no disrespect to contributions made by members or to guests who may be offended or disagree

  17. #15
    Benjamin Peters Guest

    Default

    What about standing techniques, weapons practice, striking, multiple attackers and the like? Or is it just wrestling in a suit?
    OK - I just picked this one up in one of the above posts.

    i'll have to answer this one as it becomes a bit of a misunderstanding tha bjj only encompasses the type and form more popularly seen in competitions. as far as i know, bjj under the gracie banner do at some stage teach self defense standing up ie escapes, evasions and takedowns just as koryu to but with their own little slant on things. it must be noted that sef-defense (if i dare say so) is the equivalent to their standup stuff. if you go a little further in application of the same (as you would also have to in koryu arts) you can utilise (say) a rear-shoulder-hold on an opponent to shield yourself from another (multiple attacker defense).

    as for weapons, i personally don't carry a sword, bo or the like around - do you? take a look at the books around, and what they cover and then tell me if they do standing etc yes, go to borders or whatever and have a look at the book, they cover defenses to weaponed attacks.

    remember koryu is stylized because of the way it derived ie yagyu-shingan-ryu and its percussive methods, vs (say) takeuchi-ryu for its joint locks. bjj is the same but their emphasis is found in their entry and unique strategy for fighting. kory are unique in their strategies too.

    Both of the following books cover bjj in the light of standup defenses to stand up attacks including weaponed attacks.

    http://www.invisiblecitiespress.com/...zilianjjsd.htm
    http://www.invisiblecitiespress.com/...anjiujitsu.htm

    now take a look at the video and what the description is http://www.gracieacademy.com/store/home_videos.html:
    GRACIE JIU-JITSU: EPISODE ONE
    The Key to the Gracie System of Self-Defense (Demonstration Tape)

    #557EPI -- GRACIE JIU-JITSU: EPISODE ONE
    THE KEY TO THE GRACIE SYSTEM OF SELF-DEFENSE
    A "must have" for your video collection, this demonstration video shows HELIO GRACIE for the first time on tape presenting the first 40 classes of the official Gracie Academy Self-Defense Program. Helio, along with his grandsons, Ryron and Rener, demonstrates the techniques he perfected in the specific order he believes is crucial for your introduction to Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.
    if you argue that bjj is not jujutsu per se, then what constitutes jujutsu and why can't anyone else (especially bjj) use the name?
    Last edited by Benjamin Peters; 6th January 2003 at 22:10.

Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Discussions on modern "Ju-Jitsu", 2007 version
    By john_lord_b3 in forum Jujutsu
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 5th November 2007, 07:54
  2. Replies: 12
    Last Post: 20th February 2003, 07:22
  3. The Scope of Jujutsu?
    By Jon S. in forum Jujutsu
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 14th June 2002, 23:33
  4. Submission Judo
    By Kit LeBlanc in forum Judo
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 28th July 2001, 11:39

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •