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Thread: BJJ - Is it really Jujutsu?

  1. #61
    Hissho Guest

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    Originally posted by Michael Price



    Theoretically it is not the art but the practitioner who "wins" the fight. For example a kickboxer 'should' be able to take down a grappler every time because they should never be able to get close enough to grapple but this is not the case. It all depends on the mindset of the two competitors in my humble oppinion.

    Cheers
    -Michael Price
    Everything sounds good in theory. I would disagree slightly and say that with "mindset" being equal, the training method makes a great deal of difference.

    Still Royce/Yoshida means a lot more to many in the Judo/BJJ community because many judoka, even some highly experienced ones, tend to cite it as an example of the superiority of Judo over BJJ, regardless of the relative merits of the practitioners. That is what I was addressing.

    Kit

  2. #62
    Kimura Guest

    Default Culture & society matters

    I just read this thread and found it to be a very interesting topic.I would like to add a new angle or twist on my beliefs on why the gracies developed Newaza(groundfighting) to a high level and why this became their main focus.


    It's called the "Latino Macho culture",unlike the society of feudal japan were samurais fought with weapons on horseback to death
    or even in the urban cities of the USA were gangs are prevelant and warfare is usualy administered thru guns,knives or surprised assaults.


    The latin macho culture,settles disputes between two people a little different and this might have been a contributing factor in how and why bjj focused more on groundfighting.Most disputes end up being a pride test of manhood in most south american countries as both drawing a weapon or getting outside assistance would be frowned upon as a cowardness act and very much looked down upon.


    Of course this does not apply to all instances as brazil especially today has it's own amount of urban crime just like any other major US city but back in the day of carlos/helios and even carlson eras of the 40 & 50s a fight or challenge was taken as a test of manhood and mostly contested with almost no rules and definitely with no interruptions until someone surrendered.

    Fights in most South american countries between two combatants are usually allowed to continue with no interuption usualy ending up on the ground until there is a clear winner.That is not the case here in this country as most people jump in to help or try to stop the assault and weapons are fair play.


    The emphasis on ground fighting in these mano a mano scenarios with no weapons involved and with mostly no outside interference from society to halt a dispute or challenge forced the gracies to develop a great effective ground attack ,Under these conditions the high percentage ratio of a fight ending on the ground was very high and the gracies made this their forte.

    Hector Gomez


    PS:This is not a fact just my opinion.

  3. #63
    Hissho Guest

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    Hector -

    I would only ask, then, what about the newaza matches against the Fusen-ryu, spreading the fame of the "newaza of the Kansai?"

    Or the early JJ matches which were decided by osaekomi and submission rather than throws?

    Much of this arose in Japan prior to and independently of any development of a groundfighting emphasis in Brazil - prior even to Maeda's going to Brazil.

    Also, what of Kosen Judo?

    I think the emphasis on newaza comes from a focus on challenge match style fighting, PARTICULARLY when you have smaller fighters contesting against larger fighters of some skill. This seems to me to dovetail into your comments on mano a mano fights over honor in the Latin cultural context - they are "challenge match" style fighting.

    It is easier for the smaller man with greater skills to defeat a larger man on the ground, especially if there is a strength deficit on the part of the smaller and a skill deficit on the part of the larger - notably, submission skills. Much easier than it is standing. This seems to have been a factor with Yukio Tani as much as with Helio Gracie (and later Royce against wrestlers like Ken Shamrock and Dan Severn). The Gracies in general are not large men, so it makes sense that they stayed with such a system.

    It was when wrestlers started learning how to defeat submissions and capitalize on ground and pound that this has started to change - and incidentally bring newaza back to more combative roots - submissions are not as all-important for actual fighting.

    With Kosen Judo they wanted lesser skilled newer guys to have a better chance at hanging in team competitions against other schools - by drawing rather than fighting only for ippon - since newaza is learned relatively quickly this is possible. As you know I'm sure, a six monther with hard training could at the very least be effectively defensive for the time of a match against someone with a lot more experience - if that was all they wanted to do.

    My .02, whatever its worth.

    Kit LeBlanc

  4. #64
    hector gomez Guest

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    Kit,

    Excellent point, I agree totally on the fusen-ryu,JJ matches,maeda and kosen judo all being there way before BJJ.I was simply trying to make a direct line connection as to how the culture and society of south america"In this case Rio" could have provided a breeding ground for the development of their groundfighting art to continue to develop.


    Example,take a innocent Cuban teenage baseball game in Cuba and have a
    altercation develop on the field between two players,9 times out of 10
    this dispute will be settled later in a open field with everyone gathered around as witnessess,including Sr. authority.

    Only when things have been completely "settled"(meaning a real a#$%w whooping has ocurred) will anyone step in to prevent a maiming or killing.Try settling things like that in a suburban American city park in the Usa............It will not happen,authority is going to either break it up,opponents are going to pull a gun,bat knife or have friends jump in to save them.


    This is not the case in most latin american countries as brazil back in the day adhered to this macho protocol which could have been a great breeding ground for the continuation and development of having groundfighting play a big role in the outcome of most dissputes.


    Hector Gomez
    Last edited by hector gomez; 28th April 2003 at 16:30.

  5. #65
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    Default Spanner 2

    I'd like to throw another spanner in the works here ...

    It is repeatedly stated that many fights end up on the ground and therefore BJJ is the best etc etc. I wonder ...

    Having done quite a lot of Judo myself, it is certainly not easy to get your opponent on the ground. Of late I have been watching NHB / Pride / K1 on cable and when people go down it is mostly because they were purposefully taken down by those who like to fight on the ground. This is not really a case of a fight "ending up" on the ground by accident - rather, it is a ground fighting specialist drawing the stand-up fighter into his own territory. Simply, good tactics. Nowadays I see that many top fighters are more resistant to being taken down - they have learned to avoid it to keep the fight at their own level (standing up).

    Many police arrests end up on the ground. It's true. It's safer to put the hand-cuffs on that way. Again, a purposeful tactic.

    Think about boxing, 100% of KOs end up on the ground. It's true! Also, the guy left standing does not follow him down to the ground, but continues to punch him from a standing position until the ref stops it. OK, so in boxing they are not supposed to fight on the ground... But there are similar scenes in those NHB / Pride / K1 fights I am seeing. Look at Judo, many wins come from standing positions. Some people favour ne-waza but the fact is that Judo has both tachi-waza and ne-waza, yet most people prefer to fight from tachi-waza - that must mean something. OK, so the rules between BJJ and Judo differ so it's not easy to compare...

    Where are the stats that say most fights end up on the ground? I have seen quite a few fights (school-days / pubs / streets - not me!) and most ended after a short scuffle. Occasionally, they go down, but it is not the norm by any means.

    BJJ is excellent stuff and a great compliment to any art, even Judo, nay, especially Judo. Hell, it is Judo! Get me one o' those T-Shirts!

    Rupert Atkinson
    Last edited by rupert; 29th April 2003 at 01:27.

  6. #66
    Hissho Guest

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    The stats came from LAPD, based on their 1988 arrests. The rough percentage was that 63% of arrests with altercations (i.e. where there was an actual fight, not just minor resistance) they ended up with both officer and suspect on the ground and the officer finishing with a joint lock and cuffing.

    And to the contrary, it is very normal for civilian fights to go to the ground. I dont think there are statistics for it, (you can't apply the PD statistics to civilian altercations) and I dont think as many go to the ground because it is not an arrest situation. But handle enough fight calls and see enough video capture of real fights and you will see that it is not uncommon at all for at least one person to go to the ground, often with the other person standing over them and stomping, kicking and hitting them, or sitting on them and striking them.

    Most civilian "fights" are pushing and shoving, chest bumping kinda things. Not a fight in my book. Or somebody gets some licks in and the whole thing gets broken up by the bouncers, or bystanders, or buddies.

    In serious altercations where one or more people are intent on actually hurting someone, in my experience there seems to be more of a tendency for the thing to go to the ground and be finished there.

    Kit LeBlanc

  7. #67
    Mekugi Guest

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    Hey again!!

    Raining here...couldn't be happier. Hope you're staying safe out there
    Originally posted by Hissho

    "Also, what of Kosen Judo?

    I think the emphasis on newaza comes from a focus on challenge match style fighting, PARTICULARLY when you have smaller fighters contesting against larger fighters of some skill. This seems to me to dovetail into your comments on mano a mano fights over honor in the Latin cultural context - they are "challenge match" style fighting."


    Kit LeBlanc [/B]
    .

    As a point of interest (I agree with your point of view, this is a subset), while working on the translation for the Kosen Judo tapes put out by Quest with my GF, the newaza matches were originally fought as "groups". It would be Highschool 6 against say, the Kansai Commercial Highschool (The school that Hirata Kanae was the captian of before WWII took out the Kosen school matches.) Kind of like wrestling meets in the west. Off the subject but interesting.
    Also, they would win by lottery at the event of a draw.

    Interesting little factoid.
    Also:
    With Kosen Judo they wanted lesser skilled newer guys to have a better chance at hanging in team competitions against other schools - by drawing rather than fighting only for ippon - since newaza is learned relatively quickly this is possible. As you know I'm sure, a six monther with hard training could at the very least be effectively defensive for the time of a match against someone with a lot more experience - if that was all they wanted to do.
    That is for sure. These kosen students (highschool and university) would sit up late at night thinking of ways that they could win a match by two Waza Ari or by a draw, then hoping for the lottery in their favor. It was simply impractical for them to try anything other than that because they would be overpowered in a sense of tachi waza, which was (perhaps still is) considered something you are either naturally talented at or you have to learn through endless hours of repitition. By that time, your schools name was drug through the mud and your students (who were only there for a short time) have graduated. Also, they came to realize that a submission was a way they -could- win without the bother of a full ippon from a throw- which was a lot harder/more work to do for a little guy. Shime waza- for instance; namely sankaku jime- which is one of their most famous trademark techniques, was used a great deal it seems.

    -Russ
    Last edited by Mekugi; 29th April 2003 at 23:34.

  8. #68
    MarkF Guest

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    As far as Maeda teaching then Jujutsu. This is most likely do to the fact that Maeda was doing things the the Kodokan may not have liked and since he added some other material he used the term jujutsu to distance himself. Mochizuki Minoru did something similar (he wrote a book on his martial practices and called it JUJUTSU)


    Maeda taught Kodokan Judo. That he called it "Jiu Jitsu" makes no difference, it was judo. The Kodokan may or may not have liked Maeda, I do not know, but it wasn't so with Jigoro Kano. Kano graded him twice while he was in Brazil (middle grades). Everyone called it Jiu Jitsu at that time and is why the Brazilins called it Jiu Jitsu. The reasons for his "field promotions" is said to be due to his teaching and spreading the art of Kodokan Judo.

    The point made by calling it Brazilian Judo is just fine, but you won't find judoka of Brazil calling it that then or now, but it certainly has its roots in Judo.

    Wasn't it Rorion Gracie who went into a judo dojo and asked to work out, but when he barely touched his partner and dropped to the floor immediately a few times, he was asked to leave by the teacher who said "This is not Judo." It may have been another Gracie, as it happened in modern times, but I am fairly sure it was Rorion. If I am wrong, please correct me.

    According to a letter Rorion wrote to the WHOFSC when he was "honored" as the "Soke" of Gracie Jujutsu, he wrote to advise them: "Please stop calling it Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. What I practice is Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. It is my academy which is called Gracie Jiu Jitsu Academy and is copyrighted, but it is still Brazilian Jiu Jitsu." It may be slightly paraphrased but it was published on their web site (the WHOFSC's).

    As Maeda wasn't there all that long it is probably the reason groundwork was the basis for BJJ (relatively easy to learn and as stated here shouldn't take very long to learn the basics), and he probably did not teach any rules of Judo shiai at that time so submission only could very well go back that far but after Maeda left. The interesting thing about Carlos Gracie is that in his two books written in the 1940s, are almost exclusively concerning nage-waza.

    There are the chronicles of Sarah Mayer, who was at the Kodokan when a bust was unveiled of Maeda, and by two of the leading newaza specialists of the time. You can find her letters/journals at http://EJMAS.com . This unveiling is toward the last of her Journals.

  9. #69
    MarkF Guest

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    I like the tee-shirt idea as I had something in mind for another...

    "Only judoka..."


    Mark

  10. #70
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    Other things to keep in mind when considering all this is the influence that Vale Tudo and capoeira had on the development of Brazilian jiujitsu. For example, sensible folks do not try to outkick capoeirista. Thus, going to the ground makes a lot of sense in that context. Meanwhile, Vale Tudo has a lot more in common with US and Australian professional boxing than it does with judo, which for its own historical reasons evolved in a direction closer to US high school (and later, Olympic) wrestling.

    Anyway, while a throw is a throw, whether judo, wrestling, sambo, or BJJ, the context is different, and that does make some difference in how, when, and why a technique is used or not used.

  11. #71
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    Maeda taught Kodokan Judo. That he called it "Jiu Jitsu" makes no difference, it was judo. The Kodokan may or may not have liked Maeda, I do not know, but it wasn't so with Jigoro Kano. Kano graded him twice while he was in Brazil (middle grades). Everyone called it Jiu Jitsu at that time and is why the Brazilins called it Jiu Jitsu. The reasons for his "field promotions" is said to be due to his teaching and spreading the art of Kodokan Judo.
    I agree that Maeda taught the Gracies Kodokan Judo. But I don't think he called it Jiu Jitsu because everyone called it that. There are several references to JUDO, eventhought Judo was sometimes called Kano Jujutsu. And many Japanese called the Brazialians JUDOKA. This is just a thought.

    You're also right that most of the Gracies books deal more with Standing techniques instead of groundwork. Helio himself has said that since so many pple first saw BJJ in competition, where they do a lot of groundwork, they thing it all about the ground. He says very few schools are teaching what true BJJ Self Defense is, which is staying on your feet and putting the other guy down. In GRAPPLING magazine it highlights parts of Royce and Renzo's Self Defence book and you see very little ground work most of it look like Judo Goshinjutsu.
    LeTerian Bradley

    There are no excuses on the mat, in the cage, or on the battlefeild! Train wisely!

  12. #72
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    Default Japanese go to Brasil in 1908

    of all places a book on Aikido a friend gave me last month examines this issue at length. Japanese moving to Brazil in 1908 bringing their MA and other culture with them. BJJ = Basically Japanese Judo ... but cool details and history are explored.

    Very fun read in general. Highly researched and surprisingly well written.

    Aikido in Japan and The Way Less Traveled

    author does/did BJJ and Judo too apparently...

  13. #73
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    I would certainly consider Bjj to be Juijutsu. It is a Brazilian form of a Japanese martial art. It definitely isn't traditional Japanese Juijutsu, but there shouldn't be an issue with considering Bjj a modern form of Juijutsu.

    As for Judo vs. Bjj, I think the two styles have diverged to the point where calling Bjj "Brazilian Judo" would be a big ridiculous at this point. The two are quite different from each other.

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    Since this thread started around 12-13 years ago, here's for me the final answer: BRAZILIAN JIU-JITSU IS NOT JUJUTSU!! BJJ cannot be classified as a ryuha, nor it can never be considered part of the bujutsu bugei system.

    Brazilian Jiu-jitsu stems from the line of Traditional Judo (original Kodokan Judo), not the 1925-present/contemporary Judo of today. BJJ are sister arts of both Kosen Judo, and Russian Sambo. Why? Because all 3 arts stem from their Mother art, which is the traditional Kodokan Judo started in 1882 and perfected during the 20th century. Also, BJJ cannot be jiujitsu because the martial art stems from Budo, NOT Bujutsu!! If we were to consider BJJ as jujutsu, we must consider the ramifications of what this martial art do. Evidently speaking, BJJ does not posses the same characteristics of any of ryuha of the old Jujutsu practised by Bushin/Samurai warriors from Edo to Tokugawa periods.

    Therefore, this topic should be concluded like this: Brazilian jiu-jitsu is a part of traditional Kodokan Judo and is not an authentic jujutsu-ryu. Case close.
    Last edited by The Judo Researcher; 29th July 2015 at 03:46.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingbedlam View Post
    Bjj a modern form of Juijutsu.
    - But that's the issue! Modern 'form' of jujutsu does not exist! Whether it is from Atemi/French-style, Small-circle, Kyushu, or even Gracie/Brazilian jiu-jitsu, these arts were formed out from the ideas of Budo and they represent the change of what the Meiji-era flourished.

    In essence, Jigoro Kano was right in quashing people's opinion naming his system "Kano jujutsu" and rather, he officially named it to Kodokan Judo!

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