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Thread: Aizu-han bujutsu

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    Default Aizu-han bujutsu

    Have the aizu lost all of their martial traditions? I heard of an older ryu called koyama ryu that may have been practiced. It would be strange that none of the teachings remain.
    Erin O'Neill

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 14th June 2014 at 06:02.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    I heard there was a branch of Asayama Ichiden-ryu in Aizu-han, but there is no actual proof.

    From the pamphlet Ueno Takashi Sensei 20th Anniversary Memorial Service. it states,

    Our Asayama Ichiden Ry was sg bujutsu before the Meiji Era. The 12th generation Tanaka Tamotsu belonged to a family whose lineage came from an Aizu-han retainer, Tanaka Gensai (who founded the Aizuhan school Nisshin-kan), and Tanaka Tosa, who committed suicide by hara-kiri on behalf of the Lord Matsudaira [Katamori] at the time of the Boshin War. He is also a descendant of the family who succeeded to the 12th generation of Shin Mus Hayashizaki Ry Iaijutsu and the 9th generation of Muraku Ry Iaijutsu. Although Asayama Ichiden Ry seemed to be handed down to the Aizu-han retainer (the Tanaka Family), there is no actual proof because many of the traditions of the Aizu were lost during the Boshin War. Our Asayama Ichiden Ry was handed down together with Hayashizaki Ry Iai. Shin Mus Hayashizaki Ry Iaijutsu, which was handed down to Shinj-han, had no densho of its own and was handed down with Muraku Ry. Fifty-six forms still exist today.
    [Fixed typo - "Katamoriko" to "Katamori". NS]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 27th June 2003 at 00:30.
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

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    Default Update - Shinmyo-ryu & Mizuno shinto-ryu

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    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 14th June 2014 at 06:02.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 14th June 2014 at 06:02.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott View Post
    Hey,

    I did some topical research while I was in Fukushima a few years ago, and walked out with a few notes. I didn't see any specific references to YSR in Aizu, but I did find an interesting anecdote involving Yagyu shinkage-ryu and Ono-ha itto-ryu. The only problem is, it is hard to tell where it took place, when, and who won the match. The book is about Aizu, but there are references to the Edo area as it pertained to instructors from Aizu visiting/teaching there. My guess from the context is this happened in Aizu though (my translation w/ notes in brackets):



    They only list one Ono-ha itto-ryu dojo in Aizu (Yonedai near Aizu Wakamatsu-jo), and this story was right after the listing. So it sounds like Okada Sohaku was a senior in OIR from this dojo in Aizu - or was an Aizu clansmen who studied OIR in Edo under Ono Tadaaki, but I'm not sure if Yagyu Gyobu spent any time in Aizu. Can't find much on either one of them.

    Regards,
    That is AWESOME. I've always said that there is several dissertations' worth of research in who dueled whom, what they had trained in, who won, and how.

    Anyway it sounds to me like the issue of ryu vs ryu was the secondary concern here. The YSR swordsman may or may not have been a valuable challenge because of the school he represented and his lineage and or personal history may have been what made him respectable. Okada was clearly fighting for the honor of his clan and not his ryu; the fact that he had trained in Ono-ha Itto ryu under Tadaaki was, however, possibly what gave him a chance.

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 14th June 2014 at 06:02.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott View Post

    Yagyū Gyōbu [柳生刑部; Real name = Yagyū Tomonori 柳生左門. He was a half-brother of Yagyū Jubei] and Okada Sohaku [岡田素伯] from Ono-ha Itto-ryu engaged in a sword bout. Okada had studied under Ono Jiroemon Tadaaki, and was ordered to challenge Yagyū by a superior. If Okada were to win it would raise the reputation of the Aizu clan [the outcome is not clear].
    Very interesting story. I've been told by an exponent of the school that, in general, Yagyu instructors were forbidden to engage in duels, as any loss that they suffered would reflect poorly on the Shogunate. Clearly there are a few exceptions to that rule; Jigen Ryu has a story about a duel that their founder fought with certain Yagyu practitioners, and Jubei himself seems to have engaged in a few authorized matches.
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 14th June 2014 at 06:03.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott View Post
    Rumor is that Tadaaki informally played around with Yagyu Jubei on the sly and won, and that Jubei then trained a bit with Tadaaki in order to learn his strong points.
    Extremely interesting story.

    I think that an observation of Yagyu Shinkage and Ono-ha Itto yields some very interesting similarities (not the type of similarities you get from schools that have the same origin, but more like some cross-pollination has gone on).
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DDATFUS View Post
    Extremely interesting story.

    I think that an observation of Yagyu Shinkage and Ono-ha Itto yields some very interesting similarities (not the type of similarities you get from schools that have the same origin, but more like some cross-pollination has gone on).
    It is really hard to ignore the fact that both schools' primary teaching is that a good straight cut beats anything else.

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 14th June 2014 at 06:03.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Oh yeah! I was just reminded of the fact that Ono Tadaaki was a generation older than Jubei. In that light, the fact the Jubei put his sword down before starting is a remarkable feat of restraint.

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    per Encyclopedia of Japanese Martial Arts by David A. Hall,

    Ono Jiroemon Tadaaki - (? - 1628)
    Yagyu Munenori (1571 - 1646)

    Yagyu Jubei (1606-1650)

    It was perhaps youthful impetuousness that led him to square off against Tadaaki in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott View Post

    I don't know what level of confidence others give stories such as this, but the inclusion of specific details is usually a good sign that the story is based on actual events.
    While I cannot say anything in regards to the Ono and Jubei story, I will say that my work with original Japanese source materials generally leads me to the opposite conclusion. In general if there is a highly detailed story concerning the meeting of two famous people who are not usually associated with each other, it usually means that someone, somewhere, probably fairly recently has made up or embellished the story. Before the war there were numerous fictional "historical" works written like this. I have one about Hayashizaki Jinsuke traveling around Japan and meeting all his famous supposed students, including what they worked on when they met and discussions they had. Fun reading, historically nonsense, but the book presents itself more like history.

    Another somewhat well known example of this from my own tradition involves the story of Katayama Hoki-no-Kami Hisayasu and Takeuchi Hisamori being brothers as introduced in Watatani's "Nihon Kengo 100-sen". From memory it introduces a story of Katayama going to visit his older brother Takeuchi for the new year and a discussion starts concerning Hisayasu's use of a longer than average sword. It ends up with Katayama drawing and resheathing his sword on horseback and then Takeuchi attempting to do the same thing. While he could draw it, he could not resheath it and had to throw it into some grass and dismount while admitting defeat. The story sounds good, there are nice details and all, but it is almost certainly fiction. There was a rather large age-gap between Hisayasu and Hisamori making it extremely unlikely that they were brothers. The Katayama family documents clearly state that there is a connection between the two families, but it is more complex and distant than the two being brothers. In addition, in my experience, period historical documents in Japanese generally do not use a story telling narrative structure such as the ones you see here.

    Again, I can't say anything about the Ono and Yagyu story, but whenever I see so much detail in one of these stories that one could shoot a scene for a TV show based off of it, warning lights tend to go off for me.

    For what it is worth,
    Rennis
    Rennis Buchner

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