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Thread: Are all the Japanese shihan 14th dan?

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    Default Are all the Japanese shihan 14th dan?

    This may seem a silly question, but are all the Japanese Bujinkan shihan (e.g. Nagato-sensei, Noguchi-sensei and others) all 14th dan?

    I've heard that not all of them are, but this could be wrong.

    I know that the Budo is important not the rank etc etc. etc, but it seems odd that Europeans and Americans who have only been training since the 1980s and who don't live in Japan can outrank Japanese practitioners who have done it since the 1960s and live in Japan and presumably see Hatsumi-sensei much more often.
    ----------------
    Braden Nicols

  2. #2
    Moko Guest

    Default Rank

    Last time I trained with Seno-Sensei he had a Godan patch on. Well it was still on by a couple of threads but it was mostly off. I don't think he's too concerned with it. He did seem happy that he had been training with Soke for 38 years though.

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    Default Re: Rank

    Originally posted by Moko
    He did seem happy that he had been training with Soke for 38 years though.
    I would be as well


    38 years - that is scary.
    ----------------
    Braden Nicols

  4. #4
    kimq Guest

    Default Re: Are all the Japanese shihan 14th dan?

    Originally posted by Bradenn
    I know that the Budo is important not the rank etc etc. etc, but it seems odd that Europeans and Americans who have only been training since the 1980s and who don't live in Japan can outrank Japanese practitioners who have done it since the 1960s and live in Japan and presumably see Hatsumi-sensei much more often.
    I suggest, given the above, that perhaps it's not about rank. It would seem that sometimes we have to read between the lines. Just because something isn't said outright doesn't mean that it's not a part of the statement.

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    Default Re: Are all the Japanese shihan 14th dan?

    Originally posted by Bradenn
    This may seem a silly question, but are all the Japanese Bujinkan shihan (e.g. Nagato-sensei, Noguchi-sensei and others) all 14th dan?
    To my knowledge, no, they are not all 14th dan. But who really cares?

    I know that the Budo is important not the rank etc etc. etc, but it seems odd that Europeans and Americans who have only been training since the 1980s and who don't live in Japan can outrank Japanese practitioners who have done it since the 1960s and live in Japan and presumably see Hatsumi-sensei much more often.
    So does that mean that the 14th dan Foreigners shouldn't train with a Japanese 12th dan? Hmmm..... Is this indicative of the types of quandaries we face at all "levels" in our training? Hmmm.... Is this a test of whether people are guided by rank or guided by Budo? Hmmm....

    I know it is hard for many to wrap their brains around, but creating this type of quandary for people is one of Hatsumi-sensei's greatest gifts! LOL!

    Those who are able to figure this point out go furthest in the art, imo....

    -ben
    Benjamin Cole

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    Default Re: Re: Are all the Japanese shihan 14th dan?

    Originally posted by bencole

    To my knowledge, no, they are not all 14th dan. But who really cares?

    So does that mean that the 14th dan Foreigners shouldn't train with a Japanese 12th dan? Hmmm..... Is this indicative of the types of quandaries we face at all "levels" in our training? Hmmm.... Is this a test of whether people are guided by rank or guided by Budo? Hmmm....

    I know it is hard for many to wrap their brains around, but creating this type of quandary for people is one of Hatsumi-sensei's greatest gifts! LOL!

    Those who are able to figure this point out go furthest in the art, imo....

    -ben
    Well, rank is no big deal for me. There are white belts who can teach me a thing or two and I'm not too proud to learn from them.

    But, I confess this particular issue IS hard to wrap my brain around.
    For example, are 12 dan Japanese not allowed to perform the Godan test?
    ----------------
    Braden Nicols

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    Default I wouldn't want a 14th dan

    I just realised that I wouldn't want a 14th dan.

    In an English translation of one of Hatsumi-sensei's books (maybe Ninja Submission or Sengoku Ninpo Zukan, I can't remember) I remember reading that the Godan test may only be performed by the soke of Togakure Ryu and that if anyone else did it they would suffer the wrath of heaven.

    Apparently 14th dans have performed the sakki test at Tai Kai or Daikomyosai, so I wouldn't want to be in their shoes

    I mean it's like opening Tutankhamen's tomb or the Ark of the Covenant.
    ----------------
    Braden Nicols

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    Default Re: Re: Rank

    Originally posted by Bradenn


    I would be as well


    38 years - that is scary.
    DAAAMN!
    Jason Chambers
    Owner,
    Tatsujin Photography & Design

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    Default Re: I wouldn't want a 14th dan

    Originally posted by Bradenn
    I just realised that I wouldn't want a 14th dan.

    In an English translation of one of Hatsumi-sensei's books (maybe Ninja Submission or Sengoku Ninpo Zukan, I can't remember) I remember reading that the Godan test may only be performed by the soke of Togakure Ryu and that if anyone else did it they would suffer the wrath of heaven.

    Apparently 14th dans have performed the sakki test at Tai Kai or Daikomyosai, so I wouldn't want to be in their shoes

    I mean it's like opening Tutankhamen's tomb or the Ark of the Covenant.
    Hatsumi has allowed the 14th dans to perform the sakki test as part of their training. I do not think Hatsumi would willingly put his students in the way of 'heaven's wrath' Well, most of them anyway.

    Syd Sked

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    Default Re: Re: I wouldn't want a 14th dan

    Originally posted by studious_ninja


    Hatsumi has allowed the 14th dans to perform the sakki test as part of their training. I do not think Hatsumi would willingly put his students in the way of 'heaven's wrath' Well, most of them anyway.

    Syd Sked
    I dont know. I have this image from the start of Monty Python in my head.

    The big foot coming down from heaven

    this is the image of the new sakki test I am told
    Paul Richardson - Shidoshi
    Bujinkan Lincoln Dojo

  11. #11
    Rodgers Guest

    Default Kudos to Mr Cole

    Benjamin Cole, I find your posts interesting, it's not strictly what you say, but often what you don't say. Do you by any chance keep a journal of words that interest you?

    -Benjamin Rodgers

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    So what makes the Godan test so special now that 14 dan are giving it? I'll be honest I am not at all proud to tell people that there are 14 dans in this art! I used to believe that the Godan was a special connection between you and Hatsumi..not you and Hoban or Sveneric( I just picked those two names out of the blue ). I know I will never take the Godan test unless it is from Hatsumi or the next Soke, not from the get-along gang of shihans.
    Henry Infante
    Budo Tenchi Dojo
    World Institute for Security Enhancement

  13. #13
    kimq Guest

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    Originally posted by yama-nagare
    get-along gang of shihans.

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    Originally posted by yama-nagare
    So what makes the Godan test so special now that 14 dan are giving it? I'll be honest I am not at all proud to tell people that there are 14 dans in this art! I used to believe that the Godan was a special connection between you and Hatsumi..not you and Hoban or Sveneric( I just picked those two names out of the blue ). I know I will never take the Godan test unless it is from Hatsumi or the next Soke, not from the get-along gang of shihans.
    What if Hatsumi is not around when you reach the level where you are able to take the godan test? What if there is no next Soke? There is the thought that because the 14th dans are starting to learn to give the godan test that Hatsumi has no plans to appoint a lone successor.

    Syd Sked

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    Default

    Damn, are you guys really that concerned with getting ranked by Hatsumi?

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