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Thread: Yagyu Shinkage ryu heiho

  1. #1
    Sheridan Guest

    Question Yagyu Shinkage ryu heiho

    My question is about Yagyu Jubei. I have recently finished reading 'Lives of Master Swordsmen' by Makoto Sugawara. In it the author has a chapter dealing with each of the first three masters of that school. The name Yagyu Jubei is the one that I'm familiar with. The name is legend and has numerous fictitious characters modeled after this historical figure. (Ninja Scroll!) The author's chapter gives the historical name as Yagyu Mitsuyoshi, but refers to him as Yagyu Jubei twice. Once in the chapter about Yagyu Munenori his father, and once in the chapter on Ono Tadaaki.

    My question is this; where did the name Yagyu Jubei come from? Does it have something to do with the Kanji characters used to make up the name? Is it some sort of Yagyu Shinkage-ryu secret?


  2. #2
    Meik Skoss Guest

    Default Yagyu names

    Yagyu MitsuToshi (the Yagyu family pronounces that kanji as Toshi with a T, not a Y -- so MitsuYoshi, although a more common pronunciation, is how "outsiders" say the name) was the man who studied with/received a license from Kamiizumi Isenokami Nobu(Hide)tsuna and is considered the "founder" of what's come to be commonly known as Yagyu Shinkage-ryu.

    Yagyu Munenori was his second son and was recommended by his father to serve Tokugawa Ieyasu, the founder of the last martial government of Japan. He was both a teacher of swordsmanship and political advisor to Ieyasu and his son, Hidetada, the second Tokugawa shogun.

    Yagyu Jubei Mitsutoshi (not Mitsuyoshi) served Iemitsu, the third Tokugawa shogun as kenjutsu shinanyaku (instructor of swordsmanship) as well as (according to legend), a "spy" -- so that's how all those stories of Yagyu-ryu ninjutsu came to be. Really, though, it's better to think of Jubei as an undercover inspector of conditions throughout the country.

    Sugawara's book should be taken with a large dose of salt. A lot of the stories in the book are wrong in a number of details, if not in entirety. This can be expected when it comes to popular legends and so forth, so I wouldn't use it as a "source" of information. It's a fun read, but suspect.

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    Default Watanabe of Shinkage-ryu

    Just picked up a couple books real cheap at my local used book store. I always search their Martial Arts section, and sometimes get some good stuff (found one of Draeger's Budo/Bujutsu trilogy there once for $10!). So I noticed these books of Shinkage-ryu Sword Techniques Vols 1 and 2. At a glance, they looked interesting, so I grabbed 'em. Upon closer examination I became curious. Would this be Yagyu Shinkage ryu? Is this guy any good? Why is Shidachi an enormous mustachioed white guy? Why do I have so much trouble following the technique when there are approximately 362 pictures on each page? Seriously though, I was just curious if anyone knew anyhting about these books. Thanks!

    Nathan Sherrard

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    Red face

    Yes, it is Yagyu Shinkage Ryu.

    Check out http://shinkageryu.topcities.com/shinkageryu/index.html for some info on Watanabe. I would imagine that he is quite good.

    I hope Vol. 1 isn't too bad..I currently am awaiting(backordered) that one from Bugei..
    Last edited by Soulend; 12th June 2002 at 14:58.
    David F. Craik

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    Wink Shinkage Ryu books...

    Hi all,
    I have them both and thought that they were a tad too 'loose' to really get any ideas on the art, especially the history and lineages sections..more should have been written perhaps..Or not. It is a training manual afterall..
    That would also be the reason that you have a hard time following the Kata through the book..The book is only a basic introduction to the art and is not meant as a learning tool so much as to give a basic 'idea' of the Ryu's tactics and forms..A better one by the same author is 'Shinkage Ryu Nyumon' which covers Sangakuen no Tachi through a few other sections and has a little more history and information on the arts practises today..Although still quite clearly not meant as an instructional tool..
    A better 'Koryu' bet would be 'The Deity and the Sword' by Otake Risuke, a teacher of the Katori Shinto Ryu..I thought that the balance was better than in the Shinkage volumes and the books were more easily understood (For me anyway...).
    Good books, and worth having anyway.
    Abayo
    Ben Sharples.
    智は知恵、仁は思いやり、勇は勇気と説いています。

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    Default

    From Meik Skoss
    Minato Research has also published several books on both the Yagyu Shinkage-ryu and Katori Shinto-ryu. I don't think they are worth the money. The Katori Shinto-ryu books at least have qualified people demonstrating the techniques, but so what? As reference material, maybe they have some value. Assuming that you're actually training in the art, perhaps you'll understand what's in the three books of the set, but it's very doubtful. With regard to the Yagyu Shinkage-ryu books: no way! Save your money. (I'm not carping just because the author is the teacher of a different group from the one to which I belong. It's that the technique is terrible. Do you want to study bad posture or bad mechanics? Think about it.)
    http://koryu.com/library/mskoss5.html
    Perhaps an extreme viewpoint, but a viewpoint nonetheless.
    Doug Walker
    Completely cut off both heads,
    Let a single sword stand against the cold sky!

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    Default Where's Mr. Lowry when ya need him?

    I definately respect Meik's opinion..I didn't realize these were the books he was talking about though. Seems strange that a man (Watanabe) who has been training and teaching so long would display bad technique in his books. Oh well, as I've already plopped down my $30 for the first volume, guess I'll get to see firsthand soon enough.
    David F. Craik

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    Default

    "Where's Mr. Lowry when ya need him?"

    If I may quote the estimable Buckwheat, "Heah I is!"

    And once heah, why have I been summoned? Someone asked if anyone knew anything about Mr. Watanabe's books. That's a trifle broad, isn't it? Sure, I know about them, so do millions of others who've seen them in bookstores or have copies.
    Do you mean to ask if they are useful for teaching YSR? Oh, sure. Take your buddy and your copy into the basement and hold it with one hand and use your shinai with the other and have him do the same and work your way through the curriculum. What's the Japanese expression? Asameshi mae? You'll be done before breakfast.

    Now if that's all you wanted, excuse me; got to get back to my "Teach Yourself Neurosurgery" book.

    Cordially,
    Dave Lowry

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    Talking Thanks Dave !!!

    I was reading your response at work, and it made me laugh out loud thus earning me several dirty looks! (Working in a rat maze of cubicles destroys the sense of humor I guess!) Just had to say thanks very much for the laugh!

    Cheers,
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

  10. #10
    Henrik Jonsson Guest

    Default

    Originally posted by Dave Lowry
    Do you mean to ask if they are useful for teaching YSR? Oh, sure. Take your buddy and your copy into the basement and hold it with one hand and use your shinai with the other and have him do the same and work your way through the curriculum. What's the Japanese expression? Asameshi mae? You'll be done before breakfast.

    Now if that's all you wanted, excuse me; got to get back to my "Teach Yourself Neurosurgery" book.
    While good sarcasm is appreciated by even more than those who
    bought the book series, I believe the question was over
    Mr. Skoss quoted comment about Mr. Watanabe showing bad
    technique in the book.

    I have the most humble opinion on the planet, I assure you, but
    I do think there's a vast difference between the obviousness
    of not being able to learn a koryu martial art from a book,
    and the disappointment of the book's readers if the "teacher"
    displaying the techniques show off bad form or posture, as
    Mr. Skoss seem to imply. I believe the latter was the question.

    (How's that for too long a sentence? Even when being
    thorough, it's tough to get the point over the bough and
    through to the reader. ;-)

    Oughver and ought. :-)

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    Default

    Originally posted by Dave Lowry
    "Where's Mr. Lowry when ya need him?"

    If I may quote the estimable Buckwheat, "Heah I is!"

    And once heah, why have I been summoned? Someone asked if anyone knew anything about Mr. Watanabe's books. That's a trifle broad, isn't it? Sure, I know about them, so do millions of others who've seen them in bookstores or have copies.
    Do you mean to ask if they are useful for teaching YSR? Oh, sure. Take your buddy and your copy into the basement and hold it with one hand and use your shinai with the other and have him do the same and work your way through the curriculum. What's the Japanese expression? Asameshi mae? You'll be done before breakfast.

    Now if that's all you wanted, excuse me; got to get back to my "Teach Yourself Neurosurgery" book.
    I wasn't suggesting that one could teach themselves kenjutsu with a book. An article written by Mr. Skoss suggested that these books(if they are in fact the same ones Meik was talking about) displayed poor technique and bad posture. Since you are a respected YSR practicioner(and the only one I know of here in e-budoland) I figured you may be familiar with these books, and if you happened across the thread you could comment on the whether the techniques shown are poor or not, or even tell us something about Mr. Watanabe himself, as the originator of the thread asked "Who is this guy?".

    Actually, the remark with your name was an afterthought..along the lines of 'hmm, an expert would probably be able to answer these questions'. As I didn't accompany it with any kind of correspondence asking you to come on here and enlighten us, I didn't equate it with a summons. In short, I really didn't expect you to show up, having your hands full with other things like the aforementioned self-taught neurosurgery.

    Sorry to have somehow bothered you.
    David F. Craik

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    Default Mr. Lowry seems to have riled up some folks...

    I think Mr. Lowry's post was meant more lightheartedly than it was taken. Most of the sarcasm seems directed at my question "does anyone know anything about these books?" The obvious answer being the one he illustrated (but I must say, "millions" seems a bit optimistic, though I'm sure Mr. Watanabe wouldn't complain). Let me clarify; I am not a student of shinkage-ryu, nor am I interested in becoming one. I have already invested a fair amount of time in another koryu, and have no wish to persue something else. However, I do find it interesting to examine other styles, and see how they do things, purely for my own amusement and/or education. Are we to believe that you yourself, Mr. Lowry, own no books or videos that demonstrate arts other than those you have chosen to pursue? To put my question in the most blatant terms possible: The logic of the techniques in these books was not apparent to me. Even when seeing a style I don't practice myself, I am usually able to follow the logic of the techniques. I was particularly unimpressed by Mr. Watanabe's partner. However, the little information I could find points to pretty good credentials, so I came here to find out if I was looking at a good demonstration of shinkage-ryu or not. Not because I want to teach myself, but simply from a desire for personal edification. I hope this has cleared up any misunderstandings. Jeez.

    Nathan Sherrard

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    Default

    That's the problem with you Sherrard....always so damn vague. I suppose you now expect that Mr. Lowry will pull himself away from practicing neurosurgery in the basement on a willing (or probably not so willing) family member, and write you a detailed analysis of the books. Why don't you just ask for a simple opinion on whether or not the guy who wrote the books is credible. Even better yet, you could politely ask if anybody has an opinion. You might get slightly less sarcasm in the replies to your posts that way.
    Scott Irey
    Just another one of those "few peanuts short of a snickers bar" MJER guys.

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    Default Thanks, Mr. Irey!

    Scott Irey wrote:

    "Why don't you just ask for a simple opinion on whether or not the guy who wrote the books is credible. Even better yet, you could politely ask if anybody has an opinion. You might get slightly less sarcasm in the replies to your posts that way."

    As always, you give some great advice Mr. Irey. Truth to tell, I'm a little ashamed I didn't think of that myself to begin with. It seems so obvious now! I will certainly be more careful in the future.

    P.S. So, how is your name pronounced, anyway? It's like ee-ray, right?

    Nathan Sherrard

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    I received an e-mail from Mr. Lowry. I don't believe he will be commenting further here(in a public forum) on this subject, for very good reasons.

    That's it for me too,
    David F. Craik

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