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Thread: Training in another art before beginning ninpo training: good, bad, or ...?

  1. #1
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    Question Training in another art before beginning ninpo training: good, bad, or ...?

    As of now, I have not yet trained in any martial art. I've been hoping to begin training in ninpo (probably Bujinkan, because it's currently the most accessible transportation-wise for me) since last year, but I couldn't find any dojo close enough for me to attend. I made a phone call to the San Antonio Bujinkan Dojo, but apparently it is no longer active (I received a "disconnected or no longer in service" recording).

    I probably won't be able to begin ninpo training until summer at the earliest (transportation issues).

    So what I was wondering was this: would it be helpful or harmful (or neither) to begin studying a different system until it becomes possible for me to train in ninpo/taijutsu? Currently there are two martial art schools close enough for me to attend: a Kuk Sool Won school, and a Kenpo school affiliated with the National Chinese Kenpo Karate Association.

    I know that the martial art styles are quite different, but I wondered if it would help to have at least some martial arts experience (even just a few months) before beginning to learn ninpo. On the other hand, I'm not sure I want to begin training in another art if it will end up hindering my learning of ninpo (possibly conflicting principles, contradictory habits, etc.). Or it could be that a few months training in another style would be too short a time to have a significant effect on my habits and thus would be neither helpful nor harmful as far as learning ninpo is concerned. I really don't know.

    Any opinions or thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.

    Thank you very much,

    M. Tom

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    Some training is better than no training...I know this probably is not the answer you were looking for but it's true. I'm pretty sure everybody on the forum would agree.
    It's very common. Most people that I train with have at one time or another (or are currently) trained in other martial art styles.

    Hope this helps you out, good luck
    Respectfully,
    Tony Casella

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    Default Re: Training in another art before beginning ninpo training: good, bad, or ...?

    Originally posted by mtom1234
    Or it could be that a few months training in another style would be too short a time to have a significant effect on my habits and thus would be neither helpful nor harmful as far as learning ninpo is concerned. I really don't know.
    If you honestly know that your goal is to study a ninpo art, my opinion is that you should wait until you can achieve that goal.

    Some may believe otherwise, but I feel that taking classes for too long in the systems you mentioned may be a hindrance to your goal of learning taijutsu.

  4. #4
    Karyu Guest

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    I have to agree with the above post. I had several years of karate, kung-fu, and tang-soo-do behind me when I started taijutsu, and I can honestly say that it was a tremendous hinderance when I began training in the Bujinkan. It took me six months alone just to learn how to relax and move naturally and I still feel that even now, two and a half years later, I could have progressed much farther with my taijutsu had I not had to "unlearn" my previous martial arts knowledge.

  5. #5
    Rokushakubo Guest

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    I had 3 years or so of modern jujitsu training before starting in the Bujinkan. I didn't find that much problem in making the change - especially when my instructor showed us the weaknesses in our JJ techniques!

    Having said that, in 1998 I left training in the Bujinkan for reasons too long to go into here. When I returned in May of last year, the way we were being taught was very different. As my instructor continued to learn, he adapted the way he taught. For members of the club, the change had been gradual so they probably barely noticed it. For me though, after a four year gap, the change was immense! I took me a long time to get used to the new methods and I still find myself slipping into old habits.

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    Originally posted by Rokushakubo
    I had 3 years or so of modern jujitsu training before starting in the Bujinkan. I didn't find that much problem in making the change - especially when my instructor showed us the weaknesses in our JJ techniques!
    Jujutsu is a lot more similar to taijutsu than kuk sool won or kenpo.

    All of the Japanese jujutsu-type and aikido-type guys we've gotten into our dojo are a lot better suited to taijutsu than any of the tae kwon do, karate, and even judo guys we've had.

    In many of these other martial arts, the schools often teach an emphasis on being strong, rigid and fast. All of those things are fine and good abilities to have in taijutsu, but only if you first learn to do things weakly, softly and slowly.

    If you start out martial arts with strong, rigid, and fast training, you are training your body (muscle memory) in a way that is counter-productive to learning taijutsu. You will end up having to un-learn a lot of body movements you programmed yourself to have.

    I'm not trying to bash these other martial arts. What they do is suited to the way that they approach fighting.

    I am just saying that the way that they approach things is different enough from taijutsu to actually be an obstacle to learning taijutsu.

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    Everybody has made good points...I can tell you that when i started training I had tons of habits to adjust around the arts I have studied. If you come from a striking art, you will have a harder time adjusting to the BBT way of striking...same goes for a judo/Bjj practitioner, you tend to want to grab and throw or go to the ground before possibly controlling your opponent to be used as a shield or something. Whichever art you come from you will have some habits you are going to have to adjust around....Don't get me wrong after doing BBT and you get somewhat an understanding of the basic movements you can begin to add moves from other arts, but don't do it from the begining of your training...wait till you have some time in..Good luck in whatever you end up doing!!!
    Henry Infante
    Budo Tenchi Dojo
    World Institute for Security Enhancement

  8. #8
    Rokushakubo Guest

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    Jujutsu is a lot more similar to taijutsu than kuk sool won or kenpo.
    True to a certain extent. Traditional Jujutsu is similar to taijutsu, but the modern jujutsu I was doing while at school was very much competition orientated, and was pretty much a mixture of judo and karate (we even had a karate instructor at the club at one time).

    All of the Japanese jujutsu-type and aikido-type guys we've gotten into our dojo are a lot better suited to taijutsu than any of the tae kwon do, karate, and even judo guys we've had.
    I don't think we have ever had any ex-traditional jujutsu or ex-aikido people join our club, but we have currently got two ex-karate guys. Both of them have remarkable ukemi!

    I would say that a few months training in another martial art would be beneficial - it would get you used to people attacking you and build up strength and flexibility. You wouldn't probably learn enough in a few months to damage your learning of taijutsu - in my opinion, it is a good idea to train in other arts, or at least observe them to get a good idea of how a trained martial artist moves and fights.

    You never know, if you take up a different martial art, you might like it and decide not to bother with taijutsu.

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    mtom1234 if you wish to train in taijutsu, then look for an Aikido school in your area.

    Both are similar in budo techniques, but the names are different. Plus it will give you a good idea of how movement is within a japanese budo system.

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    Cool

    I have to agree with what some posts are saying about certain martial arts effecting your later training in BBT. I have seen a few people come into our Dojo from systems such as TKD, Karate, Boxing etc.. and most times (not all) it is hard for them to break certain habits they attained from these previous systems.

    I think martial arts can described like learning languages. You will always have your first language, but when you learn a new one, it will be hard to pronounce it properly due to the speaking habits of the first one. Therefore you develop accents. Same with the martial arts. (Not always the case however).

    In my situation, after studying Bujinkan for a while (which I still do) I started learning from other systems as well. I currently cross train in Pekiti-Tirsia Kali, Arnis/Escrima, Silat and most recently shoot fighting. I take what I learned from my first language (Bujinkan ) and apply it to these new ones in hopes of become a little more flavorfull in my developments of becoming a better fighter.

    BBT gave me a good basis on flow and relaxation, which in turn helped me excel further in these other arts.

    I know from experience that I am going to get bashed because I am a Bujinkan member and I am cross training in multiple martial arts. According some people I have talked to, "Bujinkan is all you need." Not all of them however. But hey its what I like to do.
    He who comes to destroy, shall he himself be destroyed - Burned to the ground - And the Pitbulls never look back!

    Colin Tranborg
    PTK Saskatchewan Pitbulls.

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    the winjutsu source page has an article by soke about the whole previous art experience thing.



    "I have trained myself and instructed others in Kihon Happo (basic eight rules) and felt that those who have had previous training in Karate, Judo, Aikido, Kung Fu, and other fighting techniques tend to stay with those forms and have trouble learning Budo Taijutsu from a "blank slate." The fighting forms stay with the student even though he starts the training of Budo Taijutsu. When do the previous learned techniques disappear? I think it is up to a person's individual talent. The phenomenon is just like a dialect disappearing after one lives in a different part of the country.

    No matter how hard one tries, he will never be a professional announcer if he speaks in dialect. The same can be said for Budo. I also studied various martial arts such as Judo, Karate, Aikido, old-style Budo, and Chinese Budo. In other words. until I encountered Takamatsu Sensei, I was a Budoka (martial artist) with many dialects. One day I began to wonder why and when did I lose those "dialects?" I realized that it was after I lost all my muscle tone after five years of illness.

    Discovery of your own dialect is one way of improving Budo. When one reaches a certain degree of skill, he comes up against the "wall," something he has trouble overcoming. This is the so-called dialect of Taijutsu (body technique).

    I want to write about how to train yourself when you reach a higher rank during Budo training. I would like to use a Cat Competition as an example. I have had lots of experience in the competition because my wife served as judge of the World Cat Club and I was also vice chairman of the club.

    Suppose five top cats are chosen out of hundreds of cats. All of them are wonderful and beautiful, but that alone cannot be judged. With no other way to judge which cat is more beautiful then another, the judges start to look for faults. The one with the most faults drops to fifth, the next, fourth, then third, and so on. The one with the least faults becomes Grand Champion.

    Bugei is the same way. If one reaches to a higher rank, he need only eliminate his faults. It may sound easy, but eliminating faults is very difficult to accomplish, because we tend to think we are faultless. Faults can be translated into something different in Budo. They can be suki (unguarded points), or carelessness, presumption, arrogance, etc. - they all become our fault. No fault, zero condition is the best. I am ZERO. I joke that the Soke (GrandMaster) has no Dan. Zero, no fault - that is the target of Bufu Ikkan (living through the martial winds). "

    - Adapted from Tetsuzan
    Dean Eichler der Zweite
    Bujinkan Keiko Dojo
    Owner www.korisuya.com Ninjutsu tools

  12. #12
    kimq Guest

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    I don't think starting one martial art with the intent of eventually studying BBT is a good idea. I've trained with too many people from other arts who try out the school I attend.

    I've seen the hurdles they must cross - hurdles that complete martial newbies do not have. These hurdles slow those with previous experience in the initial phases of their BBT training.

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    Dear all,

    I wish I had a good base in judo before i started ninpo. I believe there are arts who can help us in our taijutsu training. When someone who has a good foundation is judo throws you with eg a koshi nage you can feel the difference. When someone who has a good foundation in Hakko ryu jujutsu aplies a wrist lock like ura kote gyaku you can feel the difference too.
    Sometimes parents ask what their kids should do before joining the taijutsu classes (if there are none for kids). I allways direct them to judo.
    I think taijutsu has a more "round" feeling than most karate do styles.
    I also think (but that's annother discussion) that we both need the "hard" and "soft" approach to be complete.

    Sincerely yours,
    Marc Coppens
    Genbukan Tenzan dojo - Belgium
    www.tenzandojo.org

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    Any training is better that no training at all. I would say find an art similar to the one which is your final goal. That way you will be learning techniques and muscle memory thay is similar to your eventual goal.

    Stanley Neptune

  15. #15
    Chiburi Guest

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    I started with Shotokan Karate-do, from which I eventually progressed to Taijutsu...and look what I've become!
    However, as Kim said already, I don't think it's good to start an other martial art with the intention of doing it 'till you can start training Taijutsu. Although I believe it's good to train in several martial arts -- and not only Budo -- during one's "career", I don't think the experience gained during what, 3 or 4 months in an other art is going to help you with Taijutsu. In the contrary, it is more likely that you'll be confused by it. Plus, I somehow feel it's not polite towards the teacher and the other art since you'll not be putting your heart in the training, in other words your full effort to learning the "in the meantime" martial art.

    Trust me, I'm still young and stupid, and once I too felt that something similar to what you're thinking about was a good idea...(in case you're older than me, well, lol)

    But I'm happy you're thinking about starting training Taijutsu, and I wish you well.

    Cheers,

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