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  1. #16
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    You have yet to support your position (it is obvious you have a position) with anything other than what amounts to a game of "kill the carrier." Good show, old boy! Just the sort of knee-jerk reaction I expected. You're a credit to your teachers.
    Eric Baluja

    Fukai kiri teme mo motenai kaku reru daizan.

  2. #17
    Todd Stephens Guest

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    Originally posted by Garth
    What I'm talking about is the dakentaijutsu that starts with Seion, Suisha, Suiyoku and broken down into the sections Shoden, Chuden, Sabaki Okuden and Moguri Gata etc. The techniques that are on the Kukishin Web Site are more similar to Takagi Yoshin Ryu forms such as Do Gaeshi, Koto, and Kata Muna Dori, and it makes no mention to these dakentaijutsu forms.

    There is actually a very good reason for why the taijutsu kata in the Kukishin Ryu look like the TYR kata--they are the TYR kata. If you read the Kuki family website, you will find reference to a competition between the head of the Kukishin Ryu and the Takagi Yoshin Ryu. After the competition, it was decided that the jutaijutsu forms of TYR were superior to the taijutsu of KSR, while the bojutsu of KSR was superior to that of TYR. As a result, the two schools incorporated the superior techniques of the other.

    As I understand it, Kukishin Ryu was passed along the soke line within the school's lineage, while Kukishinden Ryu Happo Bikenjutsu was passed along the shihanke lineage. This is one possible reason why Yakushimaru Kurando is not listed as the originator of Kukishinden Ryu Happo Bikenjutsu. Because of this split, the original yoroi kumiuchi techniques of KSR are preserved in Kukishinden Ryu, while Kukishin Ryu adopted the TYR techniques.

    Interestingly enough, Takamatsu sensei was responsible for restoring the family arts back to the Kuki family, and although he might not have been taught Kukishin Ryu, he was the inheritor of both Kukishinden Ryu and Takagi Yoshin Ryu. As a result, he was able to give back the entire curriculum of Kukishin Ryu to the Kuki family by teaching the weapon arts of Kukishinden Ryu and the jutaijutsu of Takagi Yoshin Ryu.



    _____________
    Todd Stephens

  3. #18
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    Question Re: questions

    Originally posted by Garth
    I have my suspicions that the school originates from Shinden Tatara Ryu, as the three hanbo kamae , katayaburi, munen muso and otonashi are in fact Shinden tatara ryu according to Tanemuras Hanbo book.
    Gary Arthur
    Dear Mr. Arthur,

    Which book by Tanemura sensei are you referring to? Is Tanemura sensei's hanbojutsu book available now? May I ask where you obtained it?

    Thank you.

    Sincerely,

    Kevin T. Tanemura

  4. #19
    Garth Guest

    Default Kukishin Hanbo book

    the hanbo book, hidensho (secret book) was something that was put about in the genbukan many years ago. I dont know if it is available anymore. It is quite interesting from the point of view that it includes what seems to be beginning techniques from possibly two branches or sections of Kukishin Ryu.
    Gary Arthur

  5. #20
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    1/ The art that is known as Kukishin Ryu, and I,m talking about the dakentaijutsu here. Is it really Kukishin Ryu or something Takamatsu sensei made up. I believe at one time he may have called this Kijin or Kishin Chosui Ryu. Chosui being a nick name he once had. I have my suspicions that the school originates from Shinden Tatara Ryu, as the three hanbo kamae , katayaburi, munen muso and otonashi are in fact Shinden tatara ryu according to Tanemuras Hanbo book. The kamae for kukishin are gongi, kangi etc being 5 in all.
    The Dakentaijutsu part of Kijin Chosui Ryu was founded by Urabe Sukune Kanesada this he passed to Izumo Kanja who was also the founder of Kukishinden ryu Dakentaijutsu. According to Tanemura Sensei, Takamatsu Toshitsugu especially adjusted Kukishin-ryu bo-jutsu and jujutsu from Tenshin Tatara Kangi-den bo-jutsu, Kusshoragi-den daken-taijutsu, Hontai Takagi Yoshin ryu and others.This he probably put into Kukishinden Happo hikenjutsu?.
    In Ueno Takashi Sensei`s memorial book there is a letter written by Takamatsu Sensei to Ueno Takashi Sensei explaining the relationship between the Amatsu Tatara, Kijin Chosui ryu and Kukishin ryu.

    All these arts are related to the Amatsu Tatara, So I don`t think Takamatsu Sensei made it up as such, but collected together the traditions of the Nakatomi/Kuki family and put them together when Kuki Takaharu permitted Takamatsu Sensei to copy the Kuki Archives. As you know there are many branches of the Kuki arts this makes research a little bit more difficult. A good source for info Is Takatsuka Sensei`s Kukishinden site.

    yours
    Brian Carpenter
    Dojo Cho
    GWNBF/KJJR UK KOMORI DOJO
    WORLD MATE MEMBER

  6. #21
    Garth Guest

    Default Gyokko Ryu

    In saying that the gyokko ryu has not been heard of before Takamatsu Sensei, is'nt it true that the famous ninja Sandayu Momochi was an expert in Gyokko Ryu and Koto ryu. I have even heard it said that if one masters both of these schools then one is truely a martial arts master. Is it also possible that Momochi was an expert in Togakure Ryu. Is it also possible that at this time Gyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu were part of the Togakure ryu System. What do others think about this.
    Is it also possible that in the past Ninja simply studied whatever systems of combat they could and included them in one system. When I started to study Ninjutsu back in 1985 I simply understood like everyone else that it was Togakure Ryu we were studying. Then slowly we heard about the other schools. I think I'm right in saying that in the early days the schools of Gikan Ryu, Kumogakure Ryu, and Gyokushin ryu were not heard of. From six schools there became nine and now we have also Asayama Ichiden and Bokuden Ryu. Tanemura Sensei is master of even more. In the old days when ninja were operating and studying and using these warrior systems every day, they only masters two to three arts at best. Yet today we have Umpteen arts. Surely we will never get anygood at one thing. Jack of all trades and master of none.
    I also believe that Takamatsu sensei was a bit of a historian and that he research from an old scroll he found the techniques and strategies of Kumogakure Ryu.
    Is it also possible that Gyokushin Ryu is an earlier name for Gyokko ryu. Gyokko Ryu is also called Tama Tora Ryu incidently according to the Sato Kimbei Website.
    Gary Arthur

  7. #22
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    Sorry to go off topic a little bit.
    Gary, are you the same Gary Arther that I met at the Fumon Tanaka Seminar a few years back? If so are you still with the Genbukan?

    yours
    Brian Carpenter
    Dojo Cho
    GWNBF/KJJR UK KOMORI DOJO
    WORLD MATE MEMBER

  8. #23
    Garth Guest

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    Brian Carpenter
    I could be and no I am no longer in the Genbukan although I have great respect for Tanemura Sensei. My reasons for leaving Genbukan is that one of my students who I believed was a good friend became a Genbukan Group leader by going to see another Genbukan Instructor. This person then set up a dojo in the same small town as myself. This person then went to speak individually to my students and said to them that if they left me he would get them graded higher. Many of my students left me except two beginning students who are now black belts in their own right and one still trains with the Genbukan. I had no problem with this until I visited Brighton to train with a high ranking Genbukan instructor and I was asked if I had seen this person with knives being carried whilst dressed up in a ninja suit. I was also approached by a Judo instructor in my own town and told that he had seen people in black suits with swords and knives practising in the fields at the back of his house. Knowing this I paid attention to this area and one day I saw this person and his students walk back from the woods through a school playing field with knives, swords and wearing black gis with Genbukan patches. This was communicated to Sensei but nothing was done. Not wanting to be tared with the same brush, especially if the press and the police got hold of it I felt I had to leave. This person later joined the Fuma Ryu. But unfortunately having left Tanemura Sensei I did not feel that it was respectful for me to rejoin or right and proper for me to rejoin.

  9. #24
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    Smile

    I could be and no I am no longer in the Genbukan although I have great respect for Tanemura Sensei.
    At the time of the Fumon Tanaka seminar I was then in the Bujinkan and we trained together at the seminar.

    yours
    Brian Carpenter
    Dojo Cho
    GWNBF/KJJR UK KOMORI DOJO
    WORLD MATE MEMBER

  10. #25
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    But unfortunately having left Tanemura Sensei I did not feel that it was respectful for me to rejoin or right and proper for me to rejoin.

    Why don`t you contact Sensei personally about rejoining. Tanemura Sensei is a very understanding person. I`m sure, as long as you yourself have not done anything to disrepect Sensei or the Genbukan, that Sensei would be ok about the situation.

    yours
    Brian Carpenter
    Dojo Cho
    GWNBF/KJJR UK KOMORI DOJO
    WORLD MATE MEMBER

  11. #26
    kaiser_soze Guest

    Default ninjutsu

    you're right about the ninja scam of the 80's prepetrated by hays and larry beaver

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