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View Poll Results: Strength and Stamina building exercise during class time.

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  • Strength building exercise plays a central role of every karate class.

    17 42.50%
  • Strength building exercise is something we do in karate class just sometimes. (for example, so we know how to do it at home on our own if we feel the need)

    11 27.50%
  • Strength building exercise is something we only do as negetive reinforcement when Sensei is PO'd

    0 0%
  • Take it the gym! Besides the necesssary need to warm the muscles and stretch out class time is for real karate training which is punchin and kicking.

    12 30.00%
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Thread: Training routines

  1. #1
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    Question Training routines

    How long does a typical karate class run days?

    How much time do karate guys spend on PT (exercise, push-ups ab work, you know strength and endurance building thingys that don't involve doing a punch or a kick) in a typical Karate class these days?

    Do you view your in class physical exercise routines

    (A) physical readiness training which is crucial or an integral part of your karate training

    (B) a quick warming up or limbering process that prepares your muscles and joints for the real training that is about follow.

    (C) Something else.

    (D) Physical exercise?, Whats that?
    Ed Boyd

  2. #2
    Gene Williams Guest

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    My classes have the reputation of being rough, but I really don't think they are that bad. I feel that I owe the students' physical conditioning something, plus I feel they need to learn to ignore minor discomfort. Here is a typical senior class: Students are expected to hit the makiwara before class (I have shown them the routine I like). We begin with 30 jumping jacks, 30 situps, and 30 knuckle pushups, then go to about ten minutes of stretching. The first 30 minutes of class is non-stop basics in place or up and down the floor. I want everyone breathing hard and sweaty. We then usually move to group kata, some with my counting cadence, some where I start the group but they do the kata at their own pace. I make very short, to the point corrections after the first repetition, usually addressing the whole group. This also runs for about 30 minutes. Next is partner work, which may be sanbon kumite, ippon kumite, or kata bunkai (not rigid, by the numbers bunkai). The last 30 minutes I usually allow seniors to take as free time to train whatever they want, but if they get lazy, I call them back together and do more kata. I walk around the dojo and make corrections, teach new kata, or just harass seniors. We do not use the mats except for really high falls. You won't have mats on the street My rule is: minor injuries are ignored, moderate ones are endured, and major ones are properly treated. Some nights I will completely change the routine and do mostly kobudo or partner work. I also have a 1000 punch class which everyone hates and which reminds me I haven't done that one in a while Once in a while I will have everyone sit seiza along the wall and call them out one by one and call out a kata for them to do. Sometimes I will do a kata for the class. We do not waste time with point sparring...ever! Beginner's class...God help them. Once they know the basics, it is repetition, repetition, repetition. I have no trouble weeding out those who are not serious, and I never have to say a word. Gene

  3. #3
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    Default routines

    I like to definitley work up a sweat. Class time is mostly technical time. You will build a sweat doing randori, drills, etc, put it is very technique specific. The supplementary stuff should be done after class time. You need to be good technically and in shape. I will provide the technique with some good work out, but the rest is up to you. Don't get me wrong, I will help with that, too, but not during "class time". That separates the hardcore students from the casual ones. I trained in one particular BJJ school for a while where everyday it was almost a race to see who made it to the buckett. We were in good shape no doubt but technically weak. I got to my instructors school, and though we definitley work up the sweat, I learned more technically in one day than I had in months at the previous school. I ran into a few others from that school that changed to others for the same reason.
    Manny Salazar
    Submisson Sabaki

  4. #4
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    Default

    Ok this was our brown and black belt class tonight it went from 7:00-9:00

    1. We started with 10 minutes of intensive cardio including push ups and crunches

    2. We then did stretching for 15 minutes

    3. Sanchin dai itchi and sanchin dai ni about 6 times I lost count

    4. Kihon

    5. Siyunchin broken down into little sections we did each section over and over again then put it all together

    6. kakia ussing different bunkai from diffrent kata (we did kakia for about 30 minutes)

    yours in shugyo
    Ben Wallace

  5. #5
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    Default Workout plan

    I don't teach karate now, but here is the training plan we use in our taijutsu classes.

    Movement drills to warm up (would be basics and line drills in karate)
    - includes kamae work
    - tobi drills
    - basic sanshin kata (solo movements)

    Standing partner drills (usually without throws) (ippon kumite in karate maybe)
    - set kihon drills
    - henka or variations on kihon drills

    Ukemi drills (warmup for nagewaza kihon)
    - forward/backward rolls
    - shikko
    - side rolls
    - flowing roll drills (taihenjutsu)
    - cartwheels and other tumbling (intermediate students and up)

    Kihon Happo Torite (nage waza or advanced ippon kumite)
    - Inside wrist reversal
    - Outside wrist reversal
    - Elbow entanglement
    - Shoulder lock (oni kudaki=demon crusher)
    - Ganseki nage (sort of O goshi and taiotoshi with elbow break)
    - Henka on above basics with different entries and attacks

    Kihon Happo Torite can be exchanged for a special technical lesson of some sort (special topic). Movement drills can be exchanged for some pad or bag work. Class ends with a light stretch and sometimes some physical exercises (particularly for beginners)

    We do supply an inordinate amount of info on physical training outside the dojo. What type of exercise cycles to follow, what type of exercises to choose, when, and why, etc. How to build up to various goals (such as running, you don't just start running). However, we don't spend a lot of time on pushups, situps, etc. in class. The workouts can be tough enough on their own when they flow well. Classes are one and one-half hours long.
    Glenn R. Manry

    ---Iaijutsu, don't forget the doorman.

  6. #6
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    Default

    I'll vouch for Williams Sensei's class. Its top notch and quite educational. I don't remember NOT sweating in class. Even in the winter. I would also like to add that I was lucky lucky enough to experience the 1000 Punch class as a whitebelt in a room full of blackbelts. Driving a manual trans. truck was a bit difficult the next day.

  7. #7
    Gene Williams Guest

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    Hi Matt, Sign your real name after your post. Forum rules. Glad you are on board. Hope Japan is good and that you are training somewhere. Come back to us when you get home. Sensei (Gene)

  8. #8
    Bustillo, A. Guest

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    Beginning of class...

    100 push-ups, 500 sit-ups, 500 squats and then a short three mile jog.
    Just kidding.

    After NOT bowing to a picture of a senior citizen on the wall...
    a couple of minutes of easy jump rope, or a couple of rounds of half-speed shadowfighting.

    And then, to the crux of the matter. Depending on the level of the students, like Gene, basic drills first. Yet, more often than not, class time consists of Thai pad drills, mitts, bag work and sparring drills. Towards the end of class, a few supplementary conditioning and tougherning exercises.

    An important note. About ten years ago, on the suggestion and advice of Mr.It's All Good Hector G.--Don Wilson knows him, James Warring knows him and so does Royce--on the hard sparring days, I made it a point to have it at the beginning of class, not at the end.

  9. #9
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    Default it's all good

    Kahuna! I hope y'all doin' good up thea. We still do that today. When we have the sparring days, a light shadow kick box or jump rope to get the body warm, sparring, and then the bag or whatever. Body conditioning was always done last. After all that, we would go on a nice run, ending up at Amelia Park at the hill, where we did sprints up and down the hill, and finished the run back to the gym. Whew!
    Manny Salazar
    Submisson Sabaki

  10. #10
    Bustillo, A. Guest

    Default Re: it's all good

    Originally posted by Goju Man
    Kahuna! I hope y'all doin' good up thea. We still do that today.
    Thanks Manny,

    Doin' just fine 'round dese(these) here pawts(parts).
    When I mentioned 'ten years ago and the hard sparring towards the beginning of class' I meant to say that , I implemented that during that time and continue to do so today.

  11. #11
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    Default

    I don't have much to add...

    I can't lead the warm-ups due to injuries and my brown belts just don't quite get the heart rate up high enough,

    Classes are much the same as what's been said but

    we kick evey day, 20x each leg x 5 kicks. Every class. We also have a tradition that we do 10 crunchies for every person on the floor. Average is 120-150. Visit nights from another dojo in the Institute is hell! I'm still able to take a full power kick or punch to the abs and survive, and so far so good, most punches from kyu grades to the solar plexus. Score big sensei points with those!

    But on the whole, I don't believe we have the time (2 hrs) to do justice to aerobic and strength training so we go for a toneing of the muscles with enought stretching so we stay loose and don't pop tendons. Weight lifting and running is outside of class.
    "Fear, not compassion, restrains the wicked."

  12. #12
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    Default Sports training

    Something to keep in mind is that technical work should be done first, and ideally during different workouts, then endurance work. This is particularly true if the techniques are pretty new for the fighter or if it has been some time since they were reviewed in detail.

    At least this is what I have read and trained for some time. I have been to a lot of dojo where the people were overtrained. Somebody always had injuries in the room, and people were always getting hurt. This is usually a sign that the athletes are overtrained and their rest phase is not sufficient.

    My TKD instructor had his school on a major highway, upon going to college and training outdoors with my Kyokushin friend from Japan, I figured out that we were: a)overtrained b) suffering from oxygen deprevation from car fumes (I could smell them plain as day in the dojo when I went home for the summer c)doing things in an order than promoted injury because it was calling for techical work after the fatique level was too high. I was in better shape, doing less, when I was training in Kyokushin because the training was smarter.

    That is not to say that occassionally a fighter can't learn from the experience of being able to perform technically while very fatiqued, but if it is standard practice, then it is begging for repetitive injury or some type of serious injury.

    Just my thoughts and experiences on the matter.
    Glenn R. Manry

    ---Iaijutsu, don't forget the doorman.

  13. #13
    hector gomez Guest

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    Ed,

    Great thread,I think all of us are always looking for a better training method or routine that could help us achieve a better conditioned body inorder to wistand the streses that we put on it.

    In judo and karate class,the mentality has always been to train physical conditioning first before doing any kumite or randori as being tired is something the body needs to get use too and what better way than to kumite/randori when one is tired,besides in jiujitsu one should learn to roll without depending so much on stenghth.

    In boxing & kickboxing it's another story, due to the seriousness and probabilty of recieving head blows(something we all want to avoid)it is the norm to spar at the begininng of the workout as the mind and the body is sharp,fresh and alert,therefore recieving head blows is minimized somewhat. fighting right after body conditioning when one is tired & slugish is not advised in hard contact sports.


    Today things are different than in the past,even the non profesional athlete wants some type of advantage when they head off to class.so alot of practicioners train on the off days in weightlifting,conditioniing routines,roadwork,plyometrics etc.

    Old guys like me are usually sitting around on the off days moping and complaing about the lack of recovery time.





    Hector Gomez

  14. #14
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    Default recovery time

    Old guys like me are usually sitting around on the off days moping and complaing about the lack of recovery time.
    Recovery? It seems like I never recover anymore!
    we kick evey day, 20x each leg x 5 kicks. Every class. We also have a tradition that we do 10 crunchies for every person on the floor.
    That sounds like a rough one. Performing kicking drills in repetitions is a nice way to get cardio and technical training at the same time. Crunches? ARRRRGGGHHHH!! I hate doing those! It's funny, I love to run and do cardio plenty, but I've always hated ab work. I know they are necessary and do them but they hurt!
    Manny Salazar
    Submisson Sabaki

  15. #15
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    Exclamation I am surprised by the vote.

    I am kind of surprised by how the poll is running. I guess I kind of figured that my experiences were the experiences of most people and that #1 would have been the runaway winner. Our classes are very structured and conducted in phases. This is something which has carried over from our Goju-Kai roots. We no longer do Goju-kai karate but some habits have remained.

    The first phase is a short opening short ceremony where we do some bowing. As Kahuna suggested we even bowed to a couple of pictures of some senior citizens. We bow to sensei and then bow to each other.

    The second phase we get up and bow to the instructor who leads our warm-ups after he announced the beginning of Junbi Undo ( This is the part where we do a lot of PT). We always start class with about 20 to 40 minutes of hard physical exercise. Tons of push-ups and variations on the push up and tons of ab work. Well just lots of stuff. I forget the item count judging from the responses so far you would all probably think I was BSing you anyway. At the end of the exercise portion fearless leader would announces the end of Junbi Undo and we bow again. Then on to the third phase of class.

    My view was that the strength training is part of Karate and canít be separated. We never had all the hand injuries that people talk about all the time. I can recall only one case of possible boxers break and that came when two guys went hit each other with seiken tsuki and hit each other in the fist. Maybe it wasnít even a break but he got this goose egg looking knot on the back of his hand behind the 2 small fingers. He iced it and was out commission for about a week but never got it cast. Must not of been broken I guess but it sure hurt like hell because the man was pretty tough and the impact still made him do a happy dance. But you follow our program and I believe that in a year you are going to have strong hands and strong wrist.

    Most the push ups exercises are done on vertical fist arms in close, the same arm position as in hikite (chamber). The only ones that arenít done one the fist are the ones done on the fingers tips, the back of the wrist push ups ( those suck), and my one of my personal favorites, the 4 count push ups done at a SLOW cadence on the palms with hands out wide (count 1) go all the way down (count 2) half way up ( count 3) rock side to side (count 4) all the way back up. Lots of cool variations on the pushup Maybe its time from a push thread

    Maybe the emphasis on strength training as an element of karate training is just a Goju thing. Take our Sanchin kata it is one big isometric workout ( with or without the funny breathing). The Sanchin kata pattern is the one kata pattern that I have trouble demonstrating because I forget when I am supposed to turn in the formal form. This is because we work the pattern up and down the gym floor and we donít turn until sensei calls for mawatte (turn around).

    Interesting ideas about doing the technical aspects of class first and the strength training last. I donít know if I would like that or not but you all make good points. Some I have never heard before. There is something about the fighting through the adversity the leaves of warm and fuzzy feeling in your heart after class is done. Nonetheless I am learnng a lot so far from this thread. Thanks for your participation.

    Gambatte Kudasai
    Ed Boyd

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