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Thread: chiba sensei vs Wang shu Jin!

  1. #1
    chris davis 200 Guest

    Talking chiba sensei vs Wang shu Jin!

    Hi guys

    here are 2 accounts of the same incident. neither of then writen by me.

    I find them quite interesting. I love hearing of old challanges!


    First, as told by Chiba sensei, in interview:

    Q: ...As we are talking about challenges would you mind telling me about your confrontation with Mr Wang, the Tai Chi Master from China?

    Chiba: Who told you about this ... Mr Cottier perhaps?

    Q: Perhaps I'd better not tell ...

    Chiba: (Laughter) O.K. then. I was in a big demonstration of Martial Arts in Tokyo in the early 1960's, and Tai Chi Chuan was being shown by Mr Wang. He was from Taiwan and he was very big indeed. He became quite famous later in Japan. Well, at the end of his display he had a number of Karateka line up in front of him, and each of them punched him in the belly. It had no effect on him. I was not impressed. I would have done something else (Sensei demonstrated a groin kick and face punch whilst saying this). So, anyway two of my private students were also studying Tai Chi under Mr Wang, and they were very impressed with him. They invited me to come along and see him. Eventually I accepted and went to watch his class. At the dojo my students introduced us, and he politely asked me to show some Aikido.
    Even though his words were warm it was still a challenge! Well, we faced each other, and Master Wang made something like Sumo posture with his hands outstretched. I stood and waited for an opening. This went on for some minutes until he moved forward to push me.
    So I met him, made Tai Sabaki (body evasion) and took his wrist with Kote Gaeshi, (wrist crush/reversal) ... his wrist made a loud snapping noise as I applied it. Even though I applied Kote Gaeshi strongly and injured him, he did not go down. Master Wang snatched >his wrist from me, and challenged me immediately. So this time he pushed me with both hands in the belly, and threw me quite a distance across the room. I landed, but I also did not go down. It was an amazing throw. My students then came between us, and that was that.




    Now, as told by some of the Westerners there at the time (Terry Dobson).

    Wang started teaching in the grounds of Meiji shrine, and somewhere along the line a group of non-Japanese around Donn Draeger started training with him. Draeger learned some pa-kua, Wang would also show some Hsing I, but mostly he taught TAIJIQUAN. Among this group was Terry Dobson, who was a live-in student of Morihei Ueshiba of aikido. Terry's direct senior was Chiba. Wang was doing demos in Japanese martial arts demonstrations and as Ken Cottier put it, "here you'd have all these startched Japanese in their crisp kiekko gi and their crisp snappy movements and then out would come this fat Chinaman in grey flannel slacks and suspenders and he'd start doing impossible slow TAIJIQUAN and he'd turn around and this ass as big as the moon would waft across the stage and then he'd challenge all comers to have a go at him and the young karate boys would be rabid and he'd let them punch his stomach or kick him in the groin and he'd just laugh it off but heaven help you if you tried to punch his head. He made it clear that that was out of bounds, and if you broke the rules, then he'd become, shall we say, active."

    Terry stated to me, (I'm quoting as best as I can remember) "the uchi-deshi at honbu, particularly Chiba, started giving me a raft of **** that I was being disloyal to O-sensei by studying with Wang, and I asked O-sensei, and he said, 'sure, do what you want' but they wouldn't let up so I said, "why don't you come and check him out for yourself." So Draeger and me took Chiba, Saotome and Tamura. Well, we walked in, and Wang scopes out Chiba right away, like he knows who has the attitude here, takes one look, and says, 'come here boy.' Seriously, Wang's over sixty, paid lots of dues, is a religious leader and all, and here comes these punks, as far as he's concerned, in their twenties, copping an attitude. So Wang lets Chiba punch him in the stomach. Nothing. Chiba tries again. Nothing. Well, now Chiba loses his temper, half turns away, and then tries to sucker punch him, thinking it's timing. This time Wang sucks the fist into his belly and then drops, he gives it back, Chiba's arm goes shooting back behind his ear, and he's shaking his wrist in pain. Wang then let Chiba kick him in the groin. Nothing. So Chiba loses it, grabs Wang's wrist and puts a nikkyo or kote-gaeshi on it, some wrist lock. I don't know what Wang did, it was too fast, but Chiba slams on the floor and Wang's doing something to him with one hand and he's screaming in pain. Finally Wang lets him up and says, "You've got a little chi, why don't you come back when you acquire more?" Then he turns to Tamura and Saotome, who were standing there with their backs against the wall, and says, "you want to try." They both shake their heads and we all went home. They never gave me **** about Wang again. . . . Far as I'm concerned, Chiba lost his chance at salvation right there. He should have quit everything and sat at Wang's feet."




    Whichever account you believe, great stories!

    I do think that it is interesting to note the vast difference in the accounts. It makes me wonder what other things stated by reputable men can be either made up or misinterprited.

    Had anyone heard of this incident before?? Does anyone have other versions of events?

    cheers
    Chris


  2. #2
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    I've read the first account but the second is new to me. Where did you find it? Both so biased and don't know which one is true...

    Stan
    .

    Dojo Chief Crash Test Dummy

  3. #3
    chris davis 200 Guest

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    I got the other one from a site somewhere - not much help i know!

    will try to source the URL.

    Yeh they are both bias arnt they - but quite entertaining.

    cheers
    chris

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    Since I've met and talked with, as well as trained with the teller of the second version, I trust that source more. If you do a search on Ellis Amdur and Chiba Sensei in google on the newsgroups, you'll find the account in rec.martial-arts.

    Yeah, I monitored myself once in how I told a story from 20 years ago...it wasn't intentional, but different times and audiances did make a difference. I bet if someone had a tape recording for each story I've told, we'd all have a good laugh. Well, maybe *I* wouldn't be laughing...

    Ron (probably be blushing) Tisdale

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    There is very old saying form Himalaya:

    Any aikidoka will always loose against TAIJIQUAN fighter.

    AikiChorus: Can Mr Wang do a tenkan against the bullets????? nia nia niaaaa...

    There is nothing new under the sun:
    Very know american GrandMaster/SuperSoke R.Sacharnowski can do much better then Mr Wang - you can not only hit him to the stomach, kick him in the groin BUT also kick him in his head!!! Now even american children can do it:

    regardz

    Szczepan Janczuk

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    szczepan,

    How lovely, A photo montage of all the thing you love. Really very sweet.
    Doug Walker
    Completely cut off both heads,
    Let a single sword stand against the cold sky!

  7. #7
    Guts Guest

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    I'd go with Wang Shu Jin too. I've read to many accounts of Wang being a "human tank" to think the first account is true. A really fascinating master actually, info is scarce but Robert Smith wrote about him in a few of his books.

  8. #8
    Guts Guest

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    Just found some vids of Wang for anyone interested.

    http://taichi-chuan.com/eng/news_main3.html

  9. #9
    chris davis 200 Guest

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    Woohhooo

    I have been looking for vids of Wang shu jin for some time - Thankyou very much!!!


  10. #10
    A. M. Jauregui Guest

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    Damn, he is one big boy. I think that it would have been more equal of a match if Morihei Ueshiba (might have been too old) took on Wnag Shu Ji. Don’t let anyone tell you that size does not help when coupled with skill.

  11. #11
    Guts Guest

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    He is a big mamma jamma. When he gets that body moving...he looks like he'll just run through whatevers in front. I've read that he had a favorite move where he'd grab your arms and bounce you off his stomach like a ping pong ball. Rumor is he KOed Hung I Hsiang with that move, and Hung wasn't exactly a light weight in size or skill (240lbs, 4th or 5th lineage holder in a few arts....I think he had an honoary 9th Dan from some some Budo federation based on his performance in Japan).

    I think Sensei Ueshiba or Sensei Tohei would have been a good match for Wang. Maybe.

  12. #12
    chris davis 200 Guest

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    here is BK frantzis' account of studying with wang. Bear in mind that at this stage in his life Mr Frantzis was a 3rd dan black belt in Gojo Karate and a subject of the special Gojo Ryu Research group.

    he really was a good karate ka.

    but .....

    I was nineteen then, a recognized young karate champion, and had brought with me a traditional gift of respect for Wang: a substantial amount of high-quality ginseng. At our initial meeting, Wang did not hesitate to express his low regard for karate, telling me in no uncertain terms that, "karate is only fit for fighting old women and children." As karate had been a large part of my life and my passion at the time, this off-hand remark insulted me to the core. I was forced to swallow my indignation, though. In our ensuing sparring, Wang defeated me thoroughly on every occasion,
    tapping me lightly at will all over my body to demonstrate his easy circumvention of my defenses. Despite my best efforts and despite Wang’s enormous girth, his ba gua chang enabled him to effortlessly evade all my blows and end up behind me at will.
    To graphically show me there was much to learn, he allowed me, after several days of study with him, to strike him with full power anywhere on his body. I put all the force at my command into these strikes, but they might as well have been the blows of a three-year-old. I kicked him in the knees and groin without effect, hit him in the neck and elbowed his ribs. Like many ba gua masters, he had the ability to absorb blows without injury. When I kicked him in the shin, my foot hurt long afterward. When I drove my fist into his belly, it felt as if the blow had broken my wrist. Wang would often tap me on the head during sparring just to demonstrate how easy it would have been for him to demolish me. One time, in fact, he tapped me lightly on the head, dropping me to the ground instantly. I sat there in utter surprise, feeling as if I had just been jolted by a high-voltage electrical current.
    After a while, I could tell he was getting bored with my low level of skill and my inability to hurt him. Sometimes, he would grab me with his arms and bounce me three or four times back and forth off his stomach like a yo-yo, my feet flying in the air. Then Wang would snap me back. I later heard that, as a young man in challenge matches on the Mainland, Wang had actually broken opponents’ spines in this manner. Years later, I learned from another teacher that the only defense against this technique was to turn sideways so your hip bone and not your stomach made contact with his formidable belly. Otherwise, you were finished.
    Well enough said really.

    As far as O sensei vs wang - i would say that this would never even occur - the two of them would be too enlightened to attempt or be sucked into such a battle.

    But it would have been fun to watch if they had!!!

    cheers
    Chris

  13. #13
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    Default Great stories.

    The only thing is, how any Tai Chi or Aikido people have this skill? Or can pass it on? Is their anybody today out there with these skills? I would love to see them in person.

    The one thing that really strikes me is that you can see common threads in most martial arts. In the tai chi vids, I saw a few moves that look familiar, kokyu ho like.


    Paul
    --------------------------
    Paul C. Norton



    They were conquerers, and for that you want only brute force---nothing to boast of, when you have it, since your strength is just an accident arrising from the weakness of others." Joseph Conrad Heart of Darkness

  14. #14
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    I specifically saw what looked like the sokomen step...but it seemed that so much of what he did was internal...I can't be sure where his weight was without actually feeling him. By all accounts, he was marvelous at what he did. I think you'd be very lucky to find someone of that skill level to teach you.

    Ron Tisdale

  15. #15
    Guts Guest

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    There are sopme very good internal martial arts teachers out there today. I never met one who is like Wang, but I've met one or two with some impressive skill. One of these who I met told me that as far as he was concerned, Tai Chi was dead and Hsing I and Ba Gua were dying. He said that martial arts got civilized, and a lot of people talked instead of fought.

    Keep your eyes open, you'll find someone who can do some of this stuff.

    Back to Wang. I'm not sure if he passed his skill on. I read one account of Wang and his students that was interesting. the author said Wang would just complete;ly mahnadle him, but his students couldn't do anything remotely similar. In fact, they weren't very strong. The author ended up attributing this to Wangs own practice of standing zen, that he had learned from Wang Xian Zhai (another bad mamma jamma I would like to see vids of).

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