Tozando Iaito questions

[Vanexel711]

Hi everyone,
I just started iaido and am currently debating between 3 iaitos which are made by Tozando...

KA-25 Higo Koshirae Basic
KA-105 Higo Koshirae Standard
KA-15 Standard Iaito

If anyone has any reviews or testimonials of these iaito I would really appreciate it. Most importantly I am concerned about their durability and longevity.

Thank you,
Kareem Dimashkie

[kabutoki]

hello,
i own a blade from the sme smith who does the blades for tozando and i really love it. it´s a mixture of several standard baldes tozando offers, that means it´s got the blade from one and the fittings and tsuka from another one. because of that i can´t really say anything detailed but in general all tozando blades are good but as in all quality products, you may expect more if you pay more.
from my point of view their blades are always worth beeing bought. of course this does not that mean other suppliers have less quality.

karsten

[A. Bakken]

I have tried various Tozando models, that other people in my dojo have bought. I'm not too happy about their lighter models, as the blades tend to be a little floppy if too thin. Of the models you mentioned, I would go with the KA-105 (nicer fittings). Talk to your sensei first, to get input on tsuka and blade length, etc. Mr. Yamamoto of Tozando is very helpful, and there are some useful customizing options (if you want a slightly longer tsuka, for instance). If you just buy an iaito without analyzing your needs properly, chances are that you'll want/need to get a new one soon. One good iaito is worth more than two mediocre ones.

[A. Bakken]

Originally posted by Vanexel711
Most importantly I am concerned about their durability and longevity.

I forgot to address that point of your post. The main factor here is in the hands of the user (literally). Proper and sensible use will get you a lot of mileage out of most iaito. However, if you do a lot of forced noto and nukitsuke, you can ruin the koiguichi (the "mouth" of the scabbard) in no time. It's a reasonable assumption that your second iaito will last about twice as long as your first one...

If you try to get extra durability by getting an extra thick iaito such as the Dotanuki, you'll be paying the price through aching muscles and joints.

[DCPan]

Originally posted by Vanexel711
Hi everyone,
I just started iaido and am currently debating between 3 iaitos which are made by Tozando...

KA-25 Higo Koshirae Basic
KA-105 Higo Koshirae Standard
KA-15 Standard Iaito

Well, first, both the KA-15 and KA-105 are Zinc-Aluminum blades whereas the KA-25 is Zinc-Berylium.

I had a KA-105. Relative to the KA-25, which my friend had, the KA-105 had less of a curvature, and overall, the whole blade is thinner and narrower. Even the saya is tapered, which felt funny.

If you have small hands, you may like the KA-105. Personally, I felt that the tsuka was too small and thin and also more round than oval.

However, of the three blades, I do feel that the fittings are put together best on the KA-105...it's put on a lot tighter. The balance is also best on the KA-105.

See, KA-15 and KA-25 is made by one company while KA-105 is made by another...so the craftsmanship in putting the parts together is not the same.

If you want a blade that doesn't flex or wobble as much, KA-25 is your pick.

KA-105 does feel more lively and responsive in the 3 blades you listed.

I wouldn't consider the KA-15 because you'll wind up wanting to upgrade later....The KA-15 is simply too flimsy...then again, depending on the budget, I may just go for another choice altogether...such as the Silver-inlaid Koto Koshirae on sale at their site right now, though I take the Uryu tsuba option over the three they gave you on the sight.

Also, as an FYI, if you like parts from different blades, Mr. Yamamoto and customize one for you from their different models. I got a custom job that didn't cost any more than the models listed on their site.

Your thoughts may vary

[Vanexel711]

A special thank you goes out to DC Pan, A. Bakken, and kabutoki for helping me with my decision. Your knowledge on the matter was more than helpful.

Kareem Dimashkie

[Martyn van Halm]

I don't know if you made your choice, but I've a KA-45 that satisfies my needs more than sufficiently. If you want more info, sent me a PM.

[Kelly Knight]

I have owned both a KA-15 (presently) and a KA-25 (sold it). Both have been excellent entry-level iaito and I have no regrets purchasing either one. You can certainly do a lot worse, for the money. If you have more money, buy the best you can afford. I have NO money and these iaito more than exceeded my expectations.

I would also add that neither of these iaito are "flimsy", nor has anybody that has ever handled either my KA-15 or KA-25 commented on such a quality. I have no idea why people say they are flimsy - maybe I just got lucky and got one from a good batch.

Kelly Knight

[DCPan]

Originally posted by Kelly Knight
I would also add that neither of these iaito are "flimsy", nor has anybody that has ever handled either my KA-15 or KA-25 commented on such a quality. I have no idea why people say they are flimsy -

Perhaps flimsy is not the best word. The KA-15 simply has more flex in the blade. If you OVERPOWER on the kiri-o-roshi, you can watch that kensen vibrate like strings of a guitar...notice I didn't say it's a problem when you do stuff with good technique. Then again, we are talking about an entry level blade usually used by BEGINNERS...

As for KA-25, I never said THAT was flimsy

Also, it depends on the size.

The KA-15 2.35 shaku blade will vibrate with ease. The 2.45 version is a little thicker in cross-section and will not vibrate as much.

Your experience may vary.

[Kelly Knight]

I disagree. The previous KA-25 that I had was 2.5 shaku. My current KA-15 is a 2.45. They will not flex no matter what. I have never seen nor felt either flex. Regardless of the quality of the technique.

On the flip side, I have heard the flimsy critique many times, from several people. I have not heard those comments coming from someone who has owned such an iaito for any length of time. And, unfortunately, such comments often come from those with very little experience handling them. As I said, your mileage may vary.

If someone should choose to purchase either the KA-15 or the KA-25, they MUST realize that they are purchasing just about the most inexpensive "real" iaito that money can buy - life ain't perfect. The balance and weight isn't perfect, the workmanship is, well, workable and the fittings aren't by any means pretty. With the permission of his or her sensei, though, they can enable a person to practice in a more realistic manner than without, for a cost that makes that possible.

Bottom line: if this is all you can afford and it's between some ridiculous wallhanger and the KA-15 or 25, do yourself a favor and buy one knowing that it will get you started and you can ALWAYS move up to a better one later, when you hit the lottery.

The equipment I use, as long as it is safe and acceptable to my sensei DOES NOT matter - (years and years of) training does. In my eyes, that's the difference between a dedicated practitioner and a wannabe. I could care less if they have a super-duper platinum, diamond-encrusted tsuba. If their technique and timing sucks, nothing will help that other than practice, practice and more practice.

I think an arguement could be made concerning making the arts as accessible to everyone, be they flush or otherwise, too. Inexpensive equipment makes that possible to a person that is just starting and who may not be able to afford a $500+ iaito (maybe not ever), for example.

Please excuse my tone. I'm just a bit sick of people knocking a product that I have had such good luck with.

Kelly Knight

[Vanexel711]

Thanks again, fellas...it's good to get all sides (positive and negative) when making a purchase such as this one. You all have been very helpful.

Kareem

[DCPan]

Originally posted by Kelly Knight
I disagree. The previous KA-25 that I had was 2.5 shaku. My current KA-15 is a 2.45. They will not flex no matter what. I have never seen nor felt either flex. Regardless of the quality of the technique.

Well, it's not that hard to make the blade flex a little bit. I just took my blade (2.4 shaku, berylium) off the rack and did it again. I don't know why you don't feel it. Only two ripples down the blade, but I can feel it.

Originally posted by Kelly Knight
I have not heard those comments coming from someone who has owned such an iaito for any length of time.

That's not as important as what your frame of reference is.

If you own said blade for an extended length of time, but have no other blades of similar dimension (i.e. not comparing a 2.6 to a 2.35) to compare with, you really don't have a good basis of comparison for what is good or bad.

For example, it's like asking a kendo student who's only worn kote that has cow-hide palms. When someone ask against pros and cons of buying cow-hide vs. deer-hide, how valuable would that person's insight be?

Originally posted by Kelly Knight
And, unfortunately, such comments often come from those with very little experience handling them.

[SNIP]

Please excuse my tone. I'm just a bit sick of people knocking a product that I have had such good luck with.

Convenient. I need to learn to be rude in the beginning and just apologize for it in the end.

Why not question why you are taking it so personally?

Originally posted by Kelly Knight
it will get you started and you can ALWAYS move up to a better one later, when you hit the lottery.

KA-25's normal price is 38000
KA-15's normal price is 25000

Price difference is 13000yen which is roughly US$107 dollars.

Considering that an iaito will last you 20+ years if you don't mess with it by being stupid, why spend the money to buy the KA-15 then move up to something else when you can earn the money for the price difference with one or two weekends of seasonal work at the local store (book, grocery, clothing, target, whatever) if you are concerned about the cost?

If you wait for the yearly Tozando sale, the price difference between KA-15 and KA-25 would be negligible.

I would NOT recommend anyone to buy the KA-15 when they can buy the KA-25 with a little more effort.

Buying two swords is always more expensive than buying one.

[tddeangelo]

I have experienced the phenomenon of Tozando blades vibrating after a cut. For that very reason, I really wrote off Tozando's stuff when purchasing my iaito. After purchasing my iaito (which I love), I got a chance to once again pick up the Tozando I had tried several months prior.

It felt like a different sword.

The vibration was gone. The "cheapness" I felt in it was gone. What was different? My technique improved a bit. Not a lot, but enough to show in how I swung the blade. And the blade handled much more comfortably for me.

In retrospect, would I go through Tozando? I might. The Toppei Koshirae model I tried had MUCH too small a tsuka for my taste (both in length and in width, although the katatemaki wrap didn't help that much). Others are better, I'm told, and I'm also told that Tozando will play with tsuka size a little bit at the buyer's request.

I think it really comes down to personal taste. If the Tozando floats your boat, buy it. You will no more likely be disappointed with it than any other iaito you buy without handling it first. If it doesn't do it for you in the long run, sell it or give it to a more junior student and find something more to your liking.

Ya gotta start somewhere!

Regards,

[Martyn van Halm]

I've bought my KA-45 new [when they had a sale at tozando] and it came to 387euro.

In our dojo some beginners buy used iaito from other members of the dojo who want to upgrade. I myself used the 'dojo'-iaito, which was reasonably well-maintained but 'flimsy'[in the definition stated above] with a damaged saya and a tsuka that was wrapped in tape, until I felt the time was right to buy my own.

Some beginners buy iai-to without even knowing the kata by heart - in my opinion one shouldn't be swinging a iaito when you're still looking at other pupils for the order of movements within a kata, but this is my instructor's call - while I've bought mine after doing iai for eight years. Granted, that's quite late, but I didn''t figure I was 'worthy' of a iaito when I still had trouble swinging the dojo-iaito around [yes, I'm a slow learner].

I'm not someone who is materialistic - I treat my weapon like my motorcycle. A well-maintained blade is better than a revered one with a rotten mekugi... The KA-45 feels good and I think I'll be using it for quite some years. Even if I upgrade eventually [probably to a shinken] I'll most likely keep it to take with me on travels [I heard quite a few stories about iai-to getting lost in transit].

[DCPan]

Originally posted by tddeangelo
The Toppei Koshirae model I tried had MUCH too small a tsuka for my taste (both in length and in width, although the katatemaki wrap didn't help that much).

Yeah...it seems like a common complaint for the Minosaka #100 series.
The Higo #105 that I had and sold after using it for a couple of months had the same problem.

Also, Toppei is one of the higher end models...I'd personally love to try one out for a while. I was amused by your earlier thread when you thought it felt "cheap"

I'm still trying to figure out how they stick that higo-hairyu menuki on it without it falling off...however, I just don't see myself liking katate-maki.

Having the blade vibrate isn't necessarily a bad thing...it will tell you that you are swinging "too hard with bad hasuji"