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Thread: Just my opinion

  1. #106
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Steve McGovern
    Let mer educate you on something here, to be a kahuna is not something you decide to be. You just are one, you are born one, it is like being of royal descent.[/QUOTE}
    Chris this is where I got that idea. Being Royalty is a title given by man. I take it by your statement that beign Kahuna is granted by a greater spiritual authority? If that is the case then who but those of equal or greater spiritual status within that culture could truly identify that same spirit within another?
    You do a lot of reaching and assuming. I never said it was granted by a higher spiritual power. It is something that is passed on through a family, just like it is in royalty. This makes it very easy to know if someone is a fraud. Got it?

    You wrote that Hawaiian culture has no interest to you, so you may not be able to comprehend just what is going on and how little respect your Uncle David is accorded. If you are going to offer your opinions it would help if you actually knew what you were talking about.

    I mean you are the guy earlier in this thread that quoted Joseph Swartz as a Japanese historian and you were not even aware that Joseph is a 19 or 20 year old kid that speaks very little Japanese and has a blue belt in tae kwon do. I actually know the guy.
    Christopher Moon

  2. #107
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    Originally posted by Steve McGovern
    Phil- As for Master Saito Sr. The next time he visits I will certainly ask him. What's he going to do, kick me out of the school? The last time he visited I was off the coast of Afganistan and couldn't quite make it back to pose the questions.




    Cheers
    I could have sworn Afghanistan is a land locked country. Now that I know otherwise from Steve maybe I should go check out the surf. How big were the waves rolling in Steve?

    Think Mark Saito Sr. will jump on this opportunity and sell beach front property in Kabul?
    Christopher Moon

  3. #108
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    If you want people to take your claims seriously, PROVE THEM.
    Unlike some, we can honestly say we're trying.

    No one has any reason to believe your claims UNTIL you prove them.
    Oh Christ, we're not holding you at gun point and telling you to believe anything. I am very sorry if you got this impression. It would be nice if we could talk a little about martial arts without blatant harassment though. Is not being singled out as some kind of "second class martial artist" a bit too much to ask?

    If you can't or won't prove your claims, don't get upset when people DON'T believe you.
    See above.

    Your word isn't good enough -- because your word is a claim and claims cannot be believed until proven.
    If only digging up evidence for you folks paid well, huh?

    Look, you are predisposed to not believe us. It's true. I don't hold it against you or anyone else. I can see why you would be this way, and it does not bother me. We're not members of the untouchably holy, all singing, all dancing, x-kans. Therefore, I have come to the conclusion that even if I was to come up with further evidence, I'd still be wasting my time. That's just my personal opinion, but I can see your point, why can't you see mine?

    In any case, the evidence is being pulled up, little by little. It's certainly not a fast process. In fact, it's incredibly slow.

    Even after you believe you've proven your claims, people still might not accept you.
    What a jaw dropper...

    If you can't grasp any of these points, you're going to spend all your time involved with the martial arts as a whining crybaby who doesn't understand why people don't accept his claims.
    Yeah, we've really been up to some muckraking lately! Don Roley stalking every martial related thread Steve has been on (including this one) had nothing to do with any of this. Having the audacity to discuss martial arts and not expecting to be sat at the back of the proverbial bus? How dare us. We should certainly be ashamed of ourselves.

    I'll say it again. I am willing to accept that we have reached a big dead end on this discussion, and to put it to rest for the time being. Move on to more productive things. However, I cannot (nor Steve) do this when "certain people" continue to provoke the same pointless discussion over and over.

    Anyway, I need another energy drink...

  4. #109
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    Being Royalty is a title given by man
    I was under the impression that this is more a title gained by chance of birth.

    On the subject of the 'cheese-smelling foreigner' remark, I read that article some time ago, and took it to be a somewhat humourous and tongue-in-cheek description of a very real Japanese view of outsiders, and more a jab at the Japanese themselves than the gaijin. 'Buta-Kusai' (butter stinkers) is a term used quite often in Japan.
    David F. Craik

  5. #110
    Don Roley Guest

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    Originally posted by TenguAteMyPuppy
    Oh Christ, we're not holding you at gun point and telling you to believe anything. I am very sorry if you got this impression. It would be nice if we could talk a little about martial arts without blatant harassment though. Is not being singled out as some kind of "second class martial artist" a bit too much to ask?

    Nobody is sticking a gun to your head and forcing you to post on these frums as if you were a tradition that had ties to Japan. As long as you do, then you can expect people to ask you how you are qualified to comment on the subject. It is the same treatment that Ashida Kim, Konigun, Frank Dux, etc gets. If you don't like being treated as if you were as cheesy as Yo Sato, etc, then stop using their tactics, quit whining and get the proof from Saito instead of always saying it is in progress.


    Originally posted by TenguAteMyPuppy
    We're not members of the untouchably holy, all singing, all dancing, x-kans. Therefore, I have come to the conclusion that even if I was to come up with further evidence, I'd still be wasting my time.

    I have heard that from the Konigun, "Eddie" and recently from David Schultz. Whenever people can't seem to provide proof for their claims, they start making noises that the listener will never accept it anyways.


    Originally posted by TenguAteMyPuppy
    Don Roley stalking every martial related thread Steve has been on (including this one) had nothing to do with any of this.
    Oh, you do not think that this thread about how we should or should not accept any art that can not prove a link to Japan at face value to be related? Again, if you guys want to post as if you were an art that actually existed prior to the popularity of disco music, there will always be people asking you to prove it. Make comments about dogs, politics or things like that and you are on equal ground. But talk like you are a Japanese art and you had best be prepared to prove that it was not all created by Mark Satio sr.

  6. #111
    TenguAteMyPuppy Guest

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    Nobody is sticking a gun to your head and forcing you to post on these frums as if you were a tradition that had ties to Japan. As long as you do, then you can expect people to ask you how you are qualified to comment on the subject. It is the same treatment that Ashida Kim, Konigun, Frank Dux, etc gets. If you don't like being treated as if you were as cheesy as Yo Sato, etc, then stop using their tactics, quit whining and get the proof from Saito instead of always saying it is in progress.
    So, basically what you are saying is that you will continue to stalk and harass us, because it is your belief we are as bad as the other names you've mentioned? Hmm, maybe I'll talk to Mr. Lindsey about this. He was certainly keen on the Bujinkan/Juko Kai rants. I wonder how he would feel about another continual mud slinging content, courtesy of Mr. Roley's devotion to "expose" people he does not agree with?

    I have heard that from the Konigun, "Eddie" and recently from David Schultz. Whenever people can't seem to provide proof for their claims, they start making noises that the listener will never accept it anyways.
    Don, you wouldn't accept it. You know you wouldn't accept it.

    Also, we are not Konigun, Eddie, or David Schultz. I'm sure fitting people into little categories is convenient for you, but please don't waste our time any more than you already do by constantly bringing it up.

    Oh, you do not think that this thread about how we should or should not accept any art that can not prove a link to Japan at face value to be related?
    I think you could have kept your mouth shut and avoided the provocation of this entire discussion.

    Again, if you guys want to post as if you were an art that actually existed prior to the popularity of disco music, there will always be people asking you to prove it.
    That's nice. I think it's fairly simple to draw a line between a question and hounding someone for answer they do not currently have though.

    Make comments about dogs, politics or things like that and you are on equal ground. But talk like you are a Japanese art and you had best be prepared to prove that it was not all created by Mark Satio sr.
    So, I ask again, basically you are telling us we are not free to post our thoughts on martial arts without your own brand of repetitive harassment?

  7. #112
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    Time for me to step in here. First of all, I would not put the Saito-ryu folks in the same boat as Yo Sato, whose real name is Jason Hamilton, or Duncan et al. The Saito folks do have a bit more maturity than these others, in terms of education to say the least.

    It really seems to boil down to this:

    They claim that they teach a traditional form of ninjutsu. They have no proof of this lineage extending past their family. That is it.


    Without proof, what may help is to have someone outside of their tradition examine their martial art and try to classify it in relationship to Japanese budo, Chinese, etc. I thought that Karl Friday did this at one time?

    Anyhow, this thread is just about dead, so get in your last words please....
    John Lindsey

    Oderint, dum metuant-Let them hate, so long as they fear.

  8. #113
    Don Roley Guest

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    Originally posted by TenguAteMyPuppy
    So, basically what you are saying is that you will continue to stalk and harass us, because it is your belief we are as bad as the other names you've mentioned?
    Beleif? No, it is not a matter of belief- you guys can not show any more proof to a link to Japan than Ashida Kim, Frank Dux and the others I mentioned. So when you post here, expect to be treated just like they were. You credentials will be questioned.

    Originally posted by TenguAteMyPuppy
    Don, you wouldn't accept it. You know you wouldn't accept it.
    You seem so sure of that. I know I would accept any legitimate proof. But you do not want to prove anything and are now trying to whine and complain that it would not be accepted anyways.

    Originally posted by TenguAteMyPuppy
    Also, we are not Konigun, Eddie, or David Schultz.
    You act like them. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck....

    Again, the link to Japan and proof that Mark Saito sr had the training he claims to have recieved is a very, very low standard. The fact that you can't provide it and whine, attack and change the subject is very telling. Instead of insulting people, you should just go out and get the proof. Or go to a message board with a lower standard than here.

  9. #114
    Don Roley Guest

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    Originally posted by John Lindsey
    They claim that they teach a traditional form of ninjutsu. They have no proof of this lineage extending past their family. That is it.
    Actually, the line stops at one guy called Mark Saito sr who is still iving. No proof has been shown that he actually recieved any sort of training in ninjitsu from his family. If he could, I would say that it is a family thing. But it looks like just one guy who created the art himself.



    Originally posted by John Lindsey
    Without proof, what may help is to have someone outside of their tradition examine their martial art and try to classify it in relationship to Japanese budo, Chinese, etc. I thought that Karl Friday did this at one time?
    Yes, he did opinion that the art was created by Mark Saito sr and had no link to Japan. The Saito ryu claims that he has not seen all the proof they have and can not make an informed opinion without it. The thing is, they have so far refused to show any sort of proof to anyone like him. You can kind of say the same thing about Ashida Kim. Has any one of us seen his scrolls or talked to his teacher?

  10. #115
    TenguAteMyPuppy Guest

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    Last reply (I think):

    Beleif? No, it is not a matter of belief- you guys can not show any more proof to a link to Japan than Ashida Kim, Frank Dux and the others I mentioned. So when you post here, expect to be treated just like they were. You credentials will be questioned.
    You seem like you're familiar with logical fallacies (or was that my good man Phil?). In any case, you should know that the absence of evidence does not render the claim false. The Art is not "guilty until proven innocent," as you believe, and you would have others believe. In case you hadn't noticed, that concept is both discredited and outdated by, oh... I don't know. A few centuries, maybe?

    You seem so sure of that. I know I would accept any legitimate proof. But you do not want to prove anything and are now trying to whine and complain that it would not be accepted anyways.
    Whatever evidence we have presented so far as not even got so much as a nod from you. You have never even expressed the mere possibility that Mr. Saito is not some evil fraud. I find it very hard to believe you would accept any evidence what-so-ever. You are set in your way of thinking, and you do not plan to change it. This is simple, and I am completely at a loss as to why you just cannot admit it.

    You act like them. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck....
    If only the world were that simple for the rest of us.

    Again, the link to Japan and proof that Mark Saito sr had the training he claims to have recieved is a very, very low standard. The fact that you can't provide it and whine, attack and change the subject is very telling.
    Don, we don't have it to provide yet. Don't you get it? It's still being researched. If you find something suspicious about that, well I'm sorry. I don't exactly have a news wire sitting here, feeding me reports about this stuff. Even if I did, I wouldn't be sending them to you like you were on some kind of mailing list. I'd be compiling them so I had a conclusive and coherent piece of work.

    Though I know you'd prefer I feed you the details piece by piece, it makes it easier for you to pick at them like some kind of imaginary scab.

    Instead of insulting people,
    Hey, Kettle! This is the Pot, and yo ass is black.

    you should just go out and get the proof.
    Yes, that's what we're doing, but unless you care to buy several of us plane tickets and hotel reservations in Fukushima, Japan, we're only limited to what is available in the states. Logically, that is very little.

    Or go to a message board with a lower standard than here.
    ...or you could just shut up about this and stop ruining threads with this crap? I don't know. Just a suggestion. That is about as blunt as I can get without a firm slap on the wrist. Might be a bit much for you to follow though.

  11. #116
    TenguAteMyPuppy Guest

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    Yes, he did opinion that the art was created by Mark Saito sr and had no link to Japan.
    Karl Friday thinks your beloved Bujinkan is full of it too. Remember?

    Ah, conveniently forgot about that, I see. Interesting...

  12. #117
    TenguAteMyPuppy Guest

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    The interesting part of Saito Ryu is Steve and his other types from this school. They are unabashedly loyal to their school and do not stop to take a breath when defending it. They really are Master e-debaters.


    I have been arguing (mostly politics and philosophy) on the internet for 6 years or so now. God knows I regret wasting that many hours arguing this crap too. Believe me, martial flame wars were a relief. Mr. Roley is stubborn, but he doesn't even make the top 10 list. I remember one individual in particular who was in the habit of taking a true beating every time he got online. His tactic is very common, but he was truly a master in his own demented way. I believe he had deep psychological issues which the internet only complicated (greatly).

    As I was saying, he would be backed into a corner on something, which was not uncommon. Abortion, race, economics, it didn't really matter. At some point, he would just go apes#%t and start calling people these simply terrible insults. By terrible, I mean they were terribly unfunny, but he thought he was a true comedian. After people pointed out his obvious attempts to derail the discussion, or simply stopped replying, he would firmly defend that he had "won" the debate either right then, or at some later point.

    He may still be around the net. I believe he goes by the name "Shiite or Shinola." Strike up an argument with the guy. You will be utterly stunned at how pathetic he is.

  13. #118
    Don Roley Guest

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    Originally posted by TenguAteMyPuppy
    You seem like you're familiar with logical fallacies (or was that my good man Phil?). In any case, you should know that the absence of evidence does not render the claim false. The Art is not "guilty until proven innocent," as you believe, and you would have others believe. In case you hadn't noticed, that concept is both discredited and outdated by, oh... I don't know. A few centuries, maybe?

    No, the concept is that people making claims have the responsibility to prove those claims. Thus if I claim/ accuse you of being a child molester, then I have to prove it. By the same token, if you claim to be studying an art that has links to Japan, you have to prove it, it is not anyone elses responsibilty to prove it is not.


    Originally posted by TenguAteMyPuppy
    Whatever evidence we have presented so far as not even got so much as a nod from you. You have never even expressed the mere possibility that Mr. Saito is not some evil fraud. I find it very hard to believe you would accept any evidence what-so-ever. You are set in your way of thinking, and you do not plan to change it. This is simple, and I am completely at a loss as to why you just cannot admit it.

    I have asked for some sort of proof or a link for the art prior to Mark Saito sr. None has been produced. A lot of fluff, a lot of screaming and a lot of attempts to change the conversation. But no proof that the art existed before Mark Saito sr. Some of you have pointed to the fact that he is Asian as some sort of proof. That is not enough for me or others. I exposed Kazuo Saito and he was born in Japan. The mere fact that Mark Saito has relatives from Japan does not prove that he learned anything from them. If you provide proof that he did, not only I, but many others will be satisfied. In the mean time, you seem intent on saying that you have provided the proof we have asked for and that we are too closed- minded to accept it. That is not the truth and you know it.

    Originally posted by TenguAteMyPuppy
    Don, we don't have it to provide yet. Don't you get it?

    And we do not have to accept you as anything more than another Frank Dux/ Ron Duncan/ Ashida Kim wanna be until you prove a link to Japan. Don't you get it? Or are you still intent on being treated as if you were an actualy Japanese art instead of something created by Mark Saito sr?

    Originally posted by TenguAteMyPuppy
    ...or you could just shut up about this and stop ruining threads with this crap? I don't know. Just a suggestion. That is about as blunt as I can get without a firm slap on the wrist. Might be a bit much for you to follow though.
    Temper temper. Another alternative might be that you could stop trying to post on matters where your credentials will be questioned like on a message board devoted to Japanese arts. And your diatribe sounds a bit like the guy you described when you said,

    "I remember one individual in particular who was in the habit of taking a true beating every time he got online. His tactic is very common, but he was truly a master in his own demented way. I believe he had deep psychological issues which the internet only complicated (greatly).

    As I was saying, he would be backed into a corner on something, which was not uncommon. Abortion, race, economics, it didn't really matter. At some point, he would just go apes#%t and start calling people these simply terrible insults."

    I have not insulted you other than pointing out facts. You may not like having it pointed out that you have no more proof than Frank Dux, but that is merely descriptive and not on the level of your comment about how you would not like a slice of me since you don't like swine. Your tone is that of a little boy throwing a tantrum because no one will believe him. Again, that is merely descriptive.

    You want to be treated as something other than another Ashida Kim wanna be? Then stop acting like him and do what he can not- show some proof your art existed prior to the age of disco and was taught in Japan.

  14. #119
    TenguAteMyPuppy Guest

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    No, the concept is that people making claims have the responsibility to prove those claims. Thus if I claim/ accuse you of being a child molester, then I have to prove it. By the same token, if you claim to be studying an art that has links to Japan, you have to prove it, it is not anyone elses responsibilty to prove it is not.
    You know, I've made my own share of strange analogies in my time on E-Budo, but...

    Nevermind.

    I've already replied to this. If you didn't get it the first time (or at least the tenth), tough.

    I have asked for some sort of proof or a link for the art prior to Mark Saito sr. None has been produced.
    None that satisfy you. Which is, in case you hadn't noticed, because you already believe we are a bunch of evil frauds, or something to that effect.

    A lot of fluff,
    An opinion.

    a lot of screaming
    I believe we can thank you for that.

    and a lot of attempts to change the conversation.
    If there has been any attempt to "change the subject" on our part, it is because you have nothing more to say on the subject, whether you realize it or not. You are the epitome of a broken record. We have replied, in great depth, to everything you have asked, and to the best of our abilities. You just keep saying the same thing, over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and it doesn't ever seem to end. So excuse us if we commit the horrible error of bringing other relevant issues (none of which you bother to reply to) into the debate. Or even worse, actually try to put the thread(s) you have derailed and ruined back on track.

    But no proof that the art existed before Mark Saito sr. Some of you have pointed to the fact that he is Asian as some sort of proof. That is not enough for me or others. I exposed Kazuo Saito and he was born in Japan. The mere fact that Mark Saito has relatives from Japan does not prove that he learned anything from them. If you provide proof that he did, not only I, but many others will be satisfied. In the mean time, you seem intent on saying that you have provided the proof we have asked for and that we are too closed- minded to accept it. That is not the truth and you know it.
    I've replied to this several times. I feel no further need to constantly repeat myself (unlike you, Mr. Roley).

    And we do not have to accept you as anything more than another Frank Dux/ Ron Duncan/ Ashida Kim
    No, Don. Get it straight. You are not the collective voice of E-Budo. You do not speak for the 9,500 other members of this message board. Please correct this in the future.

    wanna be until you prove a link to Japan. Don't you get it? Or are you still intent on being treated as if you were an actualy Japanese art instead of something created by Mark Saito sr?
    Disagreement with someone =|= Right to harassment on a public message board. This is very simple.

    Temper temper. Another alternative might be that you could stop trying to post on matters where your credentials will be questioned like on a message board devoted to Japanese arts.
    No temper. I was just being to the point.

    This is a public message board. Work on that. I have nothing further to say on this.

    And your diatribe sounds a bit like the guy you described when you said
    Why do you even try? Hmmm? You've got nothing on me, and if you are delusional enough to believe I am acting in such a manner, I encourage you to find this individual and observe his behavior for yourself before making such an accusation, and/or find another hobby.

    I am far from being backed into any corners as well.

    I have not insulted you other than pointing out facts.
    Ok, if I may actually release a bit of temper here. That is BULLS#&T!.

    ...and you have not pointed out any "facts" yet either. Please stop labelling your opinions as "fact." Look up "fact" in a dictionary if you do not understand the difference.

    You may not like having it pointed out that you have no more proof than Frank Dux,
    I believe we have "a bit" more evidence than Mr. Dux. Let's start with the issue of credibility. Where have you caught Mr. Saito or Mr. Phelps lying about... well... anything? Not including your opinion that he is lying about his background in the martial arts?

    but that is merely descriptive and not on the level of your comment about how you would not like a slice of me since you don't like swine. Your tone is that of a little boy throwing a tantrum because no one will believe him. Again, that is merely descriptive.
    Don, you obviously lack both a sense of sarcasm and facetiousness. Perhaps that, coupled with a zeal to throw your own (in this case, aptly named) tantrums when someone dares to disagree with you, is why you seem to think we are so overwhelmingly angry, evil and out to get you. Then again, I have other theories...

    Question (feel free not to respond. Wouldn't want you thinking "off topic"): Have you ever been diagnosed obsessive/compulsive?

    Perhaps asking that is a bit excessive. Like I said, feel free not to answer.

    I am not angry with you, nor am I out to get you. I do not have a particularly high opinion of you, this is true. However, that is of your own doing, and has little to do with your opinion of Saito Ninjitsu.

    After all, if I had a low opinion of everyone who disagreed with me on something, I would be in some serious trouble and probably not on E-Budo.

    You want to be treated as something other than another Ashida Kim wanna be? Then stop acting like him and do what he can not- show some proof your art existed prior to the age of disco and was taught in Japan.
    All those who feel supporters of Saito Ninjitsu are acting like Ashida Kim(ites), please raise your hands...

    *eyes crowd*

    Most interesting.

    I confess, you're the target of a few of my jokes, Mr. Roley. Not many, but a few. All of them in good humor, with some of my own personal opinions bleeding through (those opinions having been solely formed from the way you conduct yourself both in debates with myself, and with others). It's my attempt to keep some of this discussion light hearted. However, we are a very far cry from the name calling Ashida Kim is so "not quite famous, but highly made fun of" for. I think others will agree.

    (If really need further proof, I fully encourage a visit to the Ashida Kim message board! I am not responsible for any lost IQ points though.)
    Last edited by TenguAteMyPuppy; 14th September 2003 at 22:31.

  15. #120
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    Originally posted by TenguAteMyPuppy
    None that satisfy you. Which is, in case you hadn't noticed, because you already believe we are a bunch of evil frauds, or something to that effect.
    For the benefit of those of us who might have missed the bit of proof you have presented previously could you post it again? I believe that one of the easiest ways to provide a little bit of acceptable proof is to give us the name of the maternal grandmother Saito Sr. studied under; I think Steve mentioned the name of his paternal grandfather but that doesn't tell us anything. It should be pretty easy to get the name; I mean wouldn't Saito Jr. know his great-grandfathers name? I'm assuming Saito Sr is still alive so why hasn't anyone just called him up and asked? I could call my instructor in Japan and he would be quite happy to talk about his family. If it is so hard to get any kind of information like this that should be raising a red flag.
    Nicholas Steele

    Any errors or omissions are strictly the responsibility of those from whom I've plagerised.

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