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Thread: Just my opinion

  1. #91
    Steve McGovern Guest

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    Phil- Your post as it pertains to my position. When one says time and againg that they are working on supporting data and when that research is concluded the information will be broughtforth, is it not to be considered rude and pointless to keep up the same old tired argument?

    Does that disqualify one from partcipating in any other discussions that have nothing to do with the previous situation? By the attitude of some here in ebudo you would sure think so.

    Phil, I'm sure, as a writer, you just sitdown and scribble out whatever comes to mind without doing the research to qualify your positional statements. Not from what I've read so far.

    So I'm working on "A" as it pertains to the Saito art therefore, by your definition, I have the right to "be upset". I'm not upset though, maybe just a little tired of iterating myself. As to my teacher's background, people can do their own research. I've already provided the means to that end.

    And here's a box of tissues for you who need them.

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    Originally posted by John Lindsey
    [B]Steve, the worst place to read about Bujinkan history is from a Bujinkan website, unless you go to their official one. I never heard of Takamatsu Sensei being a body guard as such, though a Chinese friend of his was, and was killed later on.
    In one of Hatsumi sensei's books I thought he described a two hour battle between Takamatsu and a guy that turned out to be the emperor's bodyguard.
    Nicholas Steele

    Any errors or omissions are strictly the responsibility of those from whom I've plagerised.

  3. #93
    Steve McGovern Guest

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    No, he was said to have been a Shaolin Monk who had twice previously challenged him (Takamatsu) to a dual. Afterwhich it was stated that the two became good friends. I think that is the same person John Lindsey mentioned in his last post.

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    Originally posted by Steve McGovern
    [B]OK, let me see if I can put this simply.

    . Takamatsu learned from his uncle. Oh wait a minute, he's dead too (mhrip)!
    Yes, but his uncle is also recognized as a legitimate teacher by other people and organizations such as the Kuki family, so even without Takamatsu alive his background in Japan has outside verification, which actually strengthens the case for the bujinkan arts.

    ...What I see is this. Takamatsu's China story is unverifiable. Sure he may or may not have visited China but even you must admit his bodyguard claim is more far fetched than anyone who has pretended to be a SEAL, SAS or what ever.
    I can't check the book right now (Essence of ninjutsu) but I thought Hatsumi sensei talks about Takamatsu fighting the emperor's bodyguard, not being his bodyguard, but I could be wrong, so don't quote me as an authority or take this as bujinkan gospel

    Another interesting thing I noticed when reading through this book was a picture of a scroll drawing and a caption by Hatsumi that stated the Chinese influences in style on your art. If I must scan the pic and passage I will. Does that invalidate your art? To me, no. Just alot of your arguments as to "style".
    If you check any of the histories for gyokko ryu you will find that they all go back to a Chinese immigrant, and that explains the influence on the bujinkan's taijutsu (some of the lower/longer kamae, and the circular movements).A Chinese source is also one of the three most common ideas for the origin of Japanese jujutsu. This isn't relevant to Togakure ryu if that's what you were implying.
    Nicholas Steele

    Any errors or omissions are strictly the responsibility of those from whom I've plagerised.

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    Originally posted by Steve McGovern
    OK, let me see if I can put this simply.



    Chris- I can agree with your statement as to haole testimonials. I personally am not into the Hawaiian thing so I do not know with whom Mark Jr, is studying under.

    As to scum trying to hijack a culture, It is my understanding that there are no full-blooded, truly Hawaiian inhabitants left in the Islands so anyone studying the old ways is a hijacker. If I am wrong in this, please correct me.

    I have never heard Uncle David state he was of Royal Blood or refered to him in such a way but who was it that choose him to preside as Ceremonial King over Hawaii's Statehood Ceremony? Certainly the Hawaiian Community would have had something to say about that! As to conversing with "people" you mention. How do I know it is not just sour pineapples on their part? From your post I can postulate that it is sensitive topic among the "Hawaiian" Community. As to his lineage chant, I take it you are a real kahuna and Hawiian Historian then and are qualified to decifer whatever this chant is? I will ask and see what I can do to get you contact info. I cannot promise you anything though since Uncle David is not my teacher.



    Cheers
    Actually you are wrong, OHA list some 2,200 "pure bloods". Let mer educate you on something here, to be a kahuna is not something you decide to be. You just are one, you are born one, it is like being of royal descent. These kind of folks nowadays are rare, that makes a it a little easier to smoke out the posers.

    Also a person does not have to be a kahuna to understand a chant, I kind of gather you don't know a whole lot about this. Anyone that can speak the langauge can understand it. I have learned quite a few chants over the years. The Kumulipo being one of my favorites.

    About statehood I recommend you do some reading about the various controveries. Anyone that was there presiding over anything was selected by haole folks. I will let you connect those dots. For some reason the words sell out and @$$ kisser come to mind.

    mahalo nui loa
    Christopher Moon

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    Originally posted by Steve McGovern
    No, he was said to have been a Shaolin Monk who had twice previously challenged him (Takamatsu) to a dual. Afterwhich it was stated that the two became good friends. I think that is the same person John Lindsey mentioned in his last post.
    No, that is not what the book Essence Of Ninjutsu says. On page 51 it says, "Hearing these facts, a Shaolin kung fu master, Choshiryu from the Santo province..."

    Now, the name is somewhat spelled different in another source, a translation from Tanemura sensei of Budoshuju, which I believe was a magazine or newspaper. It was an autobiography of Takamatsu sensei in which it states, "It was then that I met and fought Choshirio, a Shorinji boxer..."

    In the newsletter, Bujin (Volume 1, Number 1, March 1989), there was an interview of Hatsumi sensei by Koyama Ryotaro. In the newsletter Koyama states, "It was then, I learned from the Master [Takamatsu sensei], that he once had a match with a military man of over 30 kan (about 248 lbs.) in weight by the name Zhang Zi Liang who was a prominent expert of Shorinji Kenpo..."
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

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    Originally posted by Sharp Phil

    other than possessing a great deal of respect for Don Roley
    Phil,

    I happen to dig both you guys.
    Christopher Moon

  8. #98
    Steve McGovern Guest

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    Phil- So to whom or what unbiased, officially sanctioning authoritative body I am to present my findings? You? Don Roley? ebudo? I hardly think so. What is their timeframe for me to accomplish this task? When I finish I'll put it on the web.

    Its semantics Phil so let me restate I am working on it.

    Like I said before you people continually change your requirements.

    A) Support that claim when it is questioned. (Original)
    A) refrain from participating until he or she makes good on his or her promises (Change)
    B) Fail to support that claim when it is questioned (Original)
    B) participate while maintaining his or her promises to provide support, being mindful of the fact that one has no credibility that one does not earn. (Change)
    with the exception of (Change)

    Phil I don't get angry over this stuff. What would the point in that be. What you read into a post is your inference. I may become a bit more adament when I state that I am working and doing the research and one of my critics argues that I am doing no such thing. I will also use "mirrored" examples of my critics to make a point.
    Are they now mind readers as well? Its a bit like listening to that kid in the back of the car saying "are we there yet?" over and over again.

    George- I stand corrected as to the Chinese fighter. But by your post it appears the story is changing such as the difference in wha tHatsumi wrote in his book compaired to the newsletter.

    Chris wrote:Let mer educate you on something here, to be a kahuna is not something you decide to be. You just are one, you are born one, it is like being of royal descent. These kind of folks nowadays are rare, that makes a it a little easier to smoke out the posers
    Chris didn't you just contridict yourself? If you are not one then how are your able to "smoke out the posers"? It would appear that only that person claminng to be Kahuna (Keeper of the Secrets) can be judged by other Kahuna. So how many real Kahuna are left?
    As to everything else...sour pineapples.

  9. #99
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    Originally posted by Steve McGovern


    Chris didn't you just contridict yourself? If you are not one then how are your able to "smoke out the posers"? It would appear that only that person claminng to be Kahuna (Keeper of the Secrets) can be judged by other Kahuna. So how many real Kahuna are left?
    As to everything else...sour pineapples.
    Steve,

    At first I was suspicious that you quite did not know what you are talking about, now know without a doubt that you do not know what you are talking about. It takes a kahuna to know a kahuna?? Where did you get that silly idea from? I suppose to know that Prince Charles is royalty , I have to be royalty myself. I am waiting for your next line of "it takes a ninjer wannabe to kill a ninjer wannabe".

    As far as the sour pineapples. Check out a few books on Hawaiian culture activism. Maybe by David Malo, or even current like Mililani Trask. I can take the time to pm you a list of a dozen or so books and possibly you will not be so quick to write it off as "sour pineapples".
    I don't fault you for your ignorance, it is a Hawaiian thing and you would not understand.

    P.S. Pineapples are not native to Hawaii. They were brought over by haole folks in the 1860s for other haoles to eat. Became a big cash crop later in the century. That is how Mark Saito's grandfather ended up in Hawaii correct?
    Christopher Moon

  10. #100
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    Talking Never an IHOP around when you need one

    Waffling, anyone?
    William Tai

  11. #101
    Don Roley Guest

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    Originally posted by Sharp Phil
    When you finish, those who questioned you might accept your claims as having been supported. They will not, however, accept them until you prove them. What's so difficult to understand about that?
    This is a key thing. When proof is presented, we will accept it. But we will not accept proof until it is presented. That is not difficult to comprehend, is it? Merely saying that the research is being done does not satisfy us. Especially when we see that sources of information are being turned down and ignored. Wayne Muromoto offered to help- and was called a racist. Mark Saito sr is the best source to ask for proof of his personal training- and he is not being asked.

    It is natural to suspect that they are not serious about their research because they fear what will be uncovered. Thus their asking to be allowed to be treated as if they were an art that can prove links to Japan until their research can be finished is just a way of ignoring having to present proof. In the meantime they will comment on things and make statements like, "It dosen't not change the fact that He and my teacher both learned the art from Saito Sr. who learned the art from his grandfather" when there is not one bit of proof that the grandfather taught Mark Saito.

    Mark Saito sr is still alive and sometimes comes to Steve McGovern's area. If McGovern and the others were truely serious about finding out the truth, they would go to Saito and ask him for proof. No legitimate teacher should ahve a problem with being asked to back up their personal training history. Obviously, Saito does. If he can prove that he got the trainig he claims from his grandfather, and that his grandfather came from Japan, then we will have achieved a break through. Obviously we can not ask the grandfather, so we can give some benefit of the doubt in some respects.

    But Mark Satio sr is still in the same boat as Frank Dux, Ron Duncan, Ashida Kim, etc in that he makes claims about his personal history and he can not or will not back up. Until proof to the contrary is presented, then the Saito guys should not expect to be treated with any more respect than Yo Sato or Ron Collins.

  12. #102
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    Originally posted by Steve McGovern
    George- I stand corrected as to the Chinese fighter. But by your post it appears the story is changing such as the difference in wha tHatsumi wrote in his book compaired to the newsletter.
    The only difference is the way the name is spelled. One is the way Japanese would pronounce the kanji (ie Choshiryu or Choshirio), and the other is how it would be pronounced in Chinese (ie Zhang Zi Liang).
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

  13. #103
    Steve McGovern Guest

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    Phil- No I would never be so conceited as to state that there are deep pools wisdom in what I post on a thread. I'm not Don. However, I have always taken your points under consideration. As to you or anyone else beleiving or trusting my word, what have I lied about? I may have gotten some things incorrect as to BJK stuff or history/language but I have always acknowledged and thanked people for their corrections as I strive to better my knowledge in these areas. So if that makes me a bad guy then I guess I'm pure evil then.

    As to claims. The only claim I have made is that I would do, and I am doing research as to my arts history to substantiate the Saito art's claims. Not so much for my critics but for myself. From what I see in all these "fraud" posts I am the only one even making the effort. You talk about Ashida Kim, Frank Dux and others who have been proven as frauds by reporters and other writers. No such investigations have been done on Saito or Phelps. Why is that? If they are such frauds as many of you claim then shouldn't some of you contact someone in the business and root them out? Many of you are obviously so disturbed by their claims I would think you would jump at that opportunity.

    Neither Saito or Phelps have made calims as to having "Astral Ninja" or to have won fictious deathmatch tournaments. Saito's claim is that his art was/is a family art passed to him by his grandfather. He claims not to be "ninja" in the capacity of assassins and social cast. Saito Sr. had no reason to doubt its authenticity and question his grandfather about it. Why is that so hard to believe. Is it common in Japan to ask such things of one's parents and grandparents? To this day he currently collects no monitary benefits from anyone who has learned or teaches his art. So, please tell me how he fits into "Wayne's" Cult/Fraud catagory. I read the article often to see if I have missed anything.

    Phelps's information is easily verifiable. Call or write Harvard, Yale and Stanford Universities about his attendance and graduations. That must be much too hard for any of you to do. I had provided the PH# to Special Warfare Command BUDs/SEAL Training. Only one person did any sort of verification as to that claim. He still does not believe it though. So if (since many of his classmate are still on active duty and it may be a security issue) the SEALs will let me take a picture of Phelps's Graduating BUDs class I will do that as well. And herein lies the problem. None of you will accept any documentation I present (pertaining to Phelps) and I believe you will not verify any documentation I present. So, since you do have the means to obtain this information why not just do it and cut me out of the loop and verify it for your self. But this has all been brought forth before and "you" still haven't done the easy work.
    When you finish, those who questioned you might accept your claims as having been supported. They will not, however, accept them until you prove them. What's so difficult to understand about that?
    Phil you have qualified my point as to "when I finish". Those who questioned must either accept the claims or reject them. There is no "might".
    Its never been difficult for me to understand this point. However others in ebudo seem to have great difficulty with it.

    Don Roley wrote:If he can prove that he got the trainig he claims from his grandfather, and that his grandfather came from Japan, then we will have achieved a break through. Obviously we can not ask the grandfather, so we can give some benefit of the doubt in some respects.
    Oh this is interesting. Are you now saying that I have the benefit of the doubt? If so then I sincerely thank you. If not then here's a good example: I learned to play football (soccer) from my Grandfather who immigrated from Ireland in 1914. He is dead now but my father can attest to this training. So no one is to believe my claim to those football skills even though I can play the game well. Why should I have asked my Grandfather if he was actually teaching me football and if he had documentation to back it up? Same with Saito and his art. As to the second part of you statement. The immigration record is on file in Hawaii stating, and I'm paraphrasing, that on May 3rd 1904 Hanshichi Saito offically registered at the Office of Immigration and whose place of orgin is listed as Fukushima, Japan. Hmmm. I count two requirements met. Only one more to go.
    If Wayne is soooo generous why didn't he go look up the immigration record and comment on it after I annotated its existance months ago? All you have to do is stop by the office and ask to see it. However I will order a copy and post it on a web site when I receive it. So that leaves the Japan living/record link. This is the part that is in progress, in work, being done, etc., etc. As for Master Saito Sr. The next time he visits I will certainly ask him. What's he going to do, kick me out of the school? The last time he visited I was off the coast of Afganistan and couldn't quite make it back to pose the questions.

    Don wrote:This is a key thing. When proof is presented, we will accept it. But we will not accept proof until it is presented. That is not difficult to comprehend, is it? Merely saying that the research is being done does not satisfy us. Especially when we see that sources of information are being turned down and ignored. Wayne Muromoto offered to help- and was called a racist. Mark Saito sr is the best source to ask for proof of his personal training- and he is not being asked.
    Don I have already agreed with the proof statemets and I understand that work in progress does not satisfy your requirements. As far as turning down sources of information, what information does Wayne have about Saito Ryu? His offer was to translate and examine documentation I find not provide me with information. As to me calling him racist...Well as I said it is my perception that his "Stinking Cheese Smelling Foriegners" comment was racist. This lead to my "Wayne "I hate cheese smelling Gaijin" Muromoto statement. Though I left out the word "Stinking" and substituted the word Gaijin for Foriegners it still was not a quote by someone else. Additionally, another ebudo member stated that his "xenophobic Japanese" comment used in the same sentence would be considered more racist than what I mentioned. Since the entire statement was not written in quotations then the statement must belong to him. So I do not beleive I would receive an unbiased opinion from Wayne. I have that right.

    Now I hope none of you read anger or any other emotion into this post. I'm just sitting here listening to music and enjoying a cup of tea and typing

    Cheers

  14. #104
    Steve McGovern Guest

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    [QUOTE]Let mer educate you on something here, to be a kahuna is not something you decide to be. You just are one, you are born one, it is like being of royal descent.[/QUOTE}
    Chris this is where I got that idea. Being Royalty is a title given by man. I take it by your statement that beign Kahuna is granted by a greater spiritual authority? If that is the case then who but those of equal or greater spiritual status within that culture could truly identify that same spirit within another?

    You are right I know very little about Hawaiian stuff. Never cared about it. Mark Saito Jr. cares so go talk to him about it. I just say he has the right to persue his heritage in what ever fashion he wants. If you think he's a fraud, call him out on it. You have that right.
    To me Staunch Activism=sour pinapples (ok poi) and is always a disgruntled and tainted point of view by those who perceive that they are oppressed in some fashion. This is only my opinion.

  15. #105
    Don Roley Guest

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    Originally posted by Steve McGovern
    From what I see in all these "fraud" posts I am the only one even making the effort. You talk about Ashida Kim, Frank Dux and others who have been proven as frauds by reporters and other writers. No such investigations have been done on Saito or Phelps. Why is that?
    Fact, Karl Friday and Wayne Muromoto both saw and examined examples of Saito ryu and said that based on the evidence they saw, they beleived it was made up by Mark Saito sr and had no link to Japan. When Muromoto asked to see any proof, he was vilified. So no one who has said that the Saito ryu is not Japanese can say that they have seen all the documents you claim to have because you will not let anyone like them see it.

    We have had this conversation before.

    Originally posted by Steve McGovern
    Neither Saito or Phelps have made calims as to having "Astral Ninja" or to have won fictious deathmatch tournaments. Saito's claim is that his art was/is a family art passed to him by his grandfather.
    Actually, it is better and more accurate to say that Saito suddenly refvealed that he was the inheritor of a ninjitsu art started by Shaolin monks. That is just as funny as many claims out there. And Phelps and Saito claim to have training through dreams with each other. You are closer to the astral ninja type of stuff that you are making fun of.

    Oh yeah, and we are not primarilly interested in the deeds of Phelps- even though you keep bringing him up. However, I do know that he makes several bad mistakes in Japanese and claims that he is fluent in the language. Thus, I can pretty much tell that he makes false claims. Why waste time on his claims when the question should be directed as to whether Mark Saito sr had the training he claims he had. His personal training should not be hard to prove. Why bring in all this fluff and misdirection?

    Originally posted by Steve McGovern
    Oh this is interesting. Are you now saying that I have the benefit of the doubt? If so then I sincerely thank you. If not then here's a good example: I learned to play football (soccer) from my Grandfather who immigrated from Ireland in 1914. He is dead now but my father can attest to this training. So no one is to believe my claim to those football skills even though I can play the game well. Why should I have asked my Grandfather if he was actually teaching me football and if he had documentation to back it up? Same with Saito and his art.
    Ashida Kim's followers also say he is a great technicion. Mark Saito sr does not seem to be very skilled when you read the account of the time he tried to force a duel on Dan Angier. But the thing is, IF Saito actually had training from his grandfather he might not have questioned it, but he would have proof of it.

    Originally posted by Steve McGovern
    As to the second part of you statement. The immigration record is on file in Hawaii stating, and I'm paraphrasing, that on May 3rd 1904 Hanshichi Saito offically registered at the Office of Immigration and whose place of orgin is listed as Fukushima, Japan. Hmmm. I count two requirements met. Only one more to go.
    And how many times do you want me to say that merely having a relative from Japan does not mean that you learned a Japanese art from them- especially since it seems that Hanshichi Saito was his Paternal grandfather and not the maternal one he says he got hsi training from. You keep saying that a person named Saito married another person named Saito after that fact was pointed out, but I am sure that many people are suspicious considering the facts.

    To quickly sum up- any legitimate teacher should be able to prove his personal trainign history. Any Japanese art should have at least a mention in Japan. Mark Saito sr and his art can do neither. Neither can Ashida Kim, the Konigun or other frauds. So if it looks like a fraud and acts like a fraud- even uses the same excuses as a fraud- guess what? We are going to treat it like a fraud! So ask Mark Saito sr real quick if you want to be treated any better than other frauds.

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