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Thread: Nihon Heiho Kobukai/ Yoshimine Yasuo

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    Default Seven Wonders/Questions of Daitoryu

    I got into HKD - Daitoryu lineage debate in other MA forum and stumble upon this page. Unfortunately the site is in Japanese but this is very intersting site so I post it here. If you have interest in history this page is worth translating.

    http://www.budoshop.co.jp/Yoshimine%...003/030502.htm

    http://www.budoshop.co.jp/Yoshimine%...0zokudaito.htm

    Mind you, it require knowledge not just in Japanese but also in old terms of Japanese budo. So you need someone like Cordy to do it for you.

    As of my take on this page, it seems that it is absolute waste on both side to get involved in HKD-Daitoryu lineage debate.

    Lineage = Send Money This Way
    -Youji Hajime.

    Engrish does not mine strong point

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    Opps, sorry. Got wrong name. I meant someone like Hyaku (Hyakutake Collin)
    -Youji Hajime.

    Engrish does not mine strong point

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    Lightbulb

    Funny how time changes things. Some years back when I was first investigating the tradition ascribed to Jang In Mok I got no end of grief from Hapkido folks who had no idea who he was but swore a connection between Choi and Takeda. Now the Choi advocates are talking about how Jang In Moks certificate proves that Choi could have actually taken DRAJJ. Well, no kidding. Thats never been the problem. The problem is how much, when and from whom.

    BTW: As I have reported before according to various reports there was no real love lost between Choi and Jang, though nobody seems to know what the basis of the antagonism was.

    Closing thought. I'm no expert on Japanese tradition, but if there is a connection between Choi and Takeda, by rights shouldn't all of the people who are practicing Hapkido have to clear their rank and their revenues though the DRAJJ people under Sensei Kondo? Just a thought.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  4. #4
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    Closing thought. I'm no expert on Japanese tradition, but if there is a connection between Choi and Takeda, by rights shouldn't all of the people who are practicing Hapkido have to clear their rank and their revenues though the DRAJJ people under Sensei Kondo? Just a thought.


    That's a good thought. At least I don't think anyone has ever brought this up before, at least not to my knowledge.

    Damn, that makes so much sense I had to add another sentence.


    Mark

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    O.K. guys, I thought I might do grand attempt to translate the entire page in one shot but if I do that way, I won't even get to do it first paragraph given my temparament.

    Moderator promised me to let me update my translation so I will do partial translation of the link I posted first then expand my translation.

    To ensure that nothing of my opinion will get in, I will not add explanation to my translation. I will do that in separate comment.
    -Youji Hajime.

    Engrish does not mine strong point

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    Seven Wonders of Daito-ryu

    Now, I have been keep making useless rants so I will get back to my initial intention and write something serious.

    Now, our renowned Daito-ryu aikijujitu has seven unresolved enigma. So let me name this "Seven Wonders of Daitoryu. It is equal or even better than Seven Wonders of the World.

    Wonder 1 - Who is the real founder?

    Wonder 2 - How Aiki was created?

    Wonder 3 - What was the entire system like?

    Wonder 4 - Why the content of Transmision book do not match the actual transmission?

    Wonder 5 - Where has the vast instruction fees has disappeared to?

    Wonder 6 - How good was Soukaku, really?

    Wonder 7 - Who was the real successor?

    Hmmm, I won't be able to sleep again (This is so old.). You can find where underground train go in but this won't be the same. So let examint these together.

    Wonder 1 - Who is the real founder?

    Even Now, as everyone know, any Daitoryu related writing would grandly state the story that "Daitoryu was founded by Shinra Saburou Minamot Yoshimitu, Transimitted by Takeda Family of Kai to Aizu Han (Clan), preserved as secret palace arts (Oshikiuchi) by high ranking samurai, and revealed to the world first time by Takeda Sokaku". However, as a definite historical fact, evidence in relation to Oshikiuchi being practice in Aizu feudal province does not exist so far. As far as historical investigation goes, To deny something which has existed is difficult but, in reverse, to state the existence of something which didn’t exist can be done infinitely. For what I hear, there are some people who even fabricate entire Transmission Book so there are always better players. Aren't these people really desparate for credibility, are they? I can’t understand this kind of thinking. But let put aside these rather unrealistic/outrageous story. Firstly, the issue of whether Daitoryu had existed before Takeda Sokaku, at this present point, the possibility of existence is close to zero. Styles which had been practiced in Aizu Feudal Province at the time of Bakumatu (The End of Shogunate) has been made public by detailed research of Mr Ken Takahash and name of Daitory or Oshikiuchi is nowhere to be seen. But it is probable that style which became the basis of Daitoryu has existed. Shihan Kinbei Satou of Daiwo do, while he was alive, has proposed hypothesis that Asayama Ichiden ryu became the basis of Daitoryu, and certainly as gyaku-waza have parts which is similar, this hypothesis has some validity.

    Those Takeda Sokaku studied under, if one list in order of learning, are Soukichi Takeda the father (Staff, Sumo), Souemon Takeda, the grandfather (Jujitu), Dengoro Kurokouch (experts in various styles), Touma Shibutani (Onoha Itto Ryu), Kenkichi Sakakibara (Jiki Shinkage ryu), Shyunzou Momoi (Kagami Shinmeich Ryu), Gonemon Sakai (Honshin Kyouchi ryu Kensou Jutu ), and Tanomo Saigou (Rename himself to Chikatoku Hoshina after restoration, Mizoguchi ha Itto ryu, others unknown). Now, the jujitu taught by grandfater is not known. After quite while, when Sokaku started to live in Hokkaido, Rinzou Itabashi, a old fried from the same province came to visit, saw Soukaku’s aiki techniques and said, “It’s different from Yawara you have been doing previously”, Sokaku is said to have replied “this I learned from Hoshina-san (Chikatoku Hoshina)”. Presumably, “Yawara you have been doing” referred to the Jujitu taught by his grandfather, does it? And, it may be possible that he has learned some sort of jujitu from Dengoro Kurokouchi. If that is the case, to think it simply, it follows that these jujitu style ought to be regarded as separate from current Daitoryu and “Techniques/Skills taught by Hoshina” is what is regarded as Daitoryu, doesn’t it but it is actually quite subtle matter.

    First, the time previously mentioned person of Rinzou Itabashi visited was 1915 and at this year people like Koutarou Yoshida or Morihei Ueshiba entered the gate of the school. And in previous year, Munenori Kougi Sakawa (at the time 12 years old) entered the gate, and to judge from the techniques of these people, it seems that Sokaku has stopped teaching the techniques in accordance with the Transmission Book. If techniques seen by Mr Sakabashi are such, It cannot be the case that said “Technique taught by Hoshina” = Daitory. If techniques written in Transmission Book is not the one taught by Chikatoku Hoshina, Daitoryu cannot be discussed with chikatoku Hoshina alone.

    On the side note, Munenori Sakawa proposed rather most appropriate theory by saying “I think, in actuarity, Takeda Sensei made it (Daitoryu). If you see the photograph of Tanomo Saigou, one can’t possible think he done aiki. Those who trained and those who didn’t show difference even in the way they sit. May be learned few kata but still I think Takeda Sensei invented it. Something this difficult cannot possibly be transmitted from the past.” . The reason why this theory is the most appropriate, to explain it in order, firstly, it seems that Daitoryu had not been established as a style at the time of Soukaku. Now to explain what does it meant to be established as a style, as far as Japan is concerned, at first, it means that kata containing the transmission of battlefield skills has been complied as teaching method. On the other hand, in case of Sokaku, he only taught the sequence of techniques. Kata in Koryu start from Reihou (sequence of paying respect), approach each other from a far, apply a technique as they enter maai (distance), and end with Zanshin so initial Reihou to Zanshi are set to be kata, but in actuality, the movement before the application of technique is important and with this one train the feeling of maai or metuke (eyeing) and such, but the content Soukaku taught lack this part for some reason. (At least, Daitoryu not having Reihou or Shitugyou (Translator, or Shitukou is definite due to the testimony of Munenori Sakawa). Current mode of demonstration kata are created later, just in case.

    Plus, jujitu which has been transmitted to Meiji Era though Edo period, always transmit teaching of Ogusoku (or Kogaisoku). This is reminant of Armoured grappling but Daitoryu completely lack the idea of Ogusoku. Even those style which was created during Meiji Era, such as Shin Kage ryu Jujitu still kept kata containing the transmission of battlefield skills and is quite obvious that it has succeded the Ogusoku teaching of Tenshin Shinyou ryu. However, not only Daitoryu complete lack this, it even has technique such as Shinou Nage which goes against the technical logic of Ogusoku. Now, you are not going to tell me that Shomenuchi (Frontal chop) presuppose frontal katana strike and atemi (strike) to side rib means strike between the crevice of amour so it is Ogusoku, are you? The basis of Ogusoku and Armoured grappling is Wakizashi (short sword/Long knife) combat. (This is common sence of Kobudou). To add side note, “Te toki” technique to free the hand which has been gripped come from the Ogusoku concept (as originally it was technique to free the gripped Wakizashi then cut). But in technique of Ryote tori (Both hand being gripped) in Daitoryu is completely different concept and it somehow more natural to consider it as to transferring the skill of central breakthrough when you have sword. (I will explain this further in latter part).

    To add one more, one could point out that, at the time Sokaku was teaching, technique had no name. Sokaku was illiterate so had great difficulty reading and writing so all the Transmission Book was done by an amanuensis. Then what did this person(s) who wrote it for Sokaku copied from? If Soukaku received Daitoryu from Kintoku Hoshina, then as a matter of course, writing mode and content of the Transmission Book had to be based on the Transmission book given by Kintoku Hoshina but it is difficult to think this way. Rather it is more natural to think that it was oral dictation of Sokaku. To say further, it is said that Sokaku wrote Daitoryu in kanji then made it to be read as “Yamato-ryu” but at about 1915, following the advice of Kotaro Yoshida, he made it to be read as Daitoryu, and this is another evidece of not being established as a style.

    Another matter which is mysterious in Daitoryu’s Transmission book is its line of lineage. Line of lineage listed at the end of the Transmission book shows, Emperor Seiwa - Prince Sadasumi - Minamot Tunemoto – Mitunaka – Yorinobu – Yoriyoshi – Yoshimitu (Shinra Saburou) – Takeda Yoshikiyo – Nobuyoshi – (10 generations) Nobumitu – Nobuyoshi – Kunitugu – (10th generation decendants) – Takeda Souuemon – Takeda Sokaku but then where the number 36th line of succession claimed by previous Soke Tokimune come from? For example, in “Encycropedia of Bugei ryu” , from Takeda Nobumitu to Nobutuna, seven generations are abbreviated, and from Takeda Nobushige, three generations are abbreviated, from there, the name Takeda Nobutora – Ohigashi (read as Daitou) Hisanosuke are added to reach Kunitugu, from Kunitugu to Gonzaemon, then abbreviation of 12 generation to connect to Takeda Souumemon. If you add all of this, it is actually 36th generations so it’s all makes sence, does it? Hey hey, wait a minute. If that is the case, it doesn’t match the previously listed line of lineage in the transmission book. Plus, the name Ohigashi Hisanosuke appeared, in fact, appeared after Showa era (1925-1989) and even the existence of this person is under suspicion. It is quite obvious that line of lineage in the transmission book has been borrowed by Soukaku from his own family line of lineage, i.e. from Seiwa Genji through Takeda clan of Kai to his generation. The reason for the absence of Saigou Tanomo’s or Hoshina Kintoku’s names seem to be this.

    In turn, theory was proposed that Daitoryu was actually transmitted from Sokaku’s grandfather Souuemon, then adding Oshikiuchi which was taught by Hoshina Kintoku, Soukaku newly changed Daitoryu Jujitu to Daitoryu Aiki Jiujitu. But this theory is not right either. Because if this is true, why the lineage list left by Sokaku lack any writing of his grandfather? For the record, I was allowed to check the lineage list, all preserved in the house of current Soke, Takeda Masanobu Shihan, but in start, it say monjin (inside gate student) of Onoha Itto ryu Shibuya Touma, Takeda Sokaku and there is nothing written about anything before that. As far as it can be seen from this, it only show that Sokaku received Transmission Licence (Menkyo) of Onoha Itto ryu from Shibuya Touma, another licence from Hoshina Kintoku. Then, it turn out that only lincence (menkyo) Soukaku obtained is from two of Shibuya Touma and Hoshina Kintoku. In such case, this will completely contradict the previously listed lineage line in the transmission book.

    When what is the thing which Sokaku learned from Hoshina Kintoku? The note left by Previous Soke Tokimune contains writing of Kumitachi (Translator, Kumi-Cross Tachi-Sword, don’t know what that mean) but this is definitely taught by Hoshina Kintoku. And it may be possible that he learnt jujutu technique which became the basis of inspiration for Daitoryu. Techniques such as Shihou Nage or Yonkajyou cannot be seen in other styles but how these thing came about, I will write in other article. Anyway, it is quite definite basically to consider the actual founder to be Takeda Sokaku.
    -Youji Hajime.

    Engrish does not mine strong point

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    Wonder 2 coming next.

    I still think this should be a separate thread because it got nothing to do with HKD and because all the trolling/spaming this thread has generated.
    Last edited by Vapour; 29th August 2003 at 02:17.
    -Youji Hajime.

    Engrish does not mine strong point

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    Mr. Hajime,

    You are spending a great deal of time and effort to translate these pages. I'd like to ask you why? Who is the author, and why do you think that the information is so important?

    I ask because the section you've posted is poorly researched and does not seem to contain any original research that has not already been published in English all over the place. It is also full or romaji spelling errors and mistranslations - so many that it would take a very long time to correct them all. I don't mean any offense to Hyakutake-san if he is the one helping you, as I'm sure he is a capable translater. For example, how the kanji for "Chikanori" end up being pronounced that way is beyond me, since the kanji used by all the Japanese sources I've seen all read "Chikatoku".

    There are actually a number of Japanese texts on Daito ryu that would provide us all with much more valuable information than the unsubstantiated opinions of whoever wrote this webpage. Why not spend your time working on these instead?

    Just curious - no offense intended,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Originally posted by Nathan Scott
    Mr. Hajime,

    You are spending a great deal of time and effort to translate these pages. I'd like to ask you why? Who is the author, and why do you think that the information is so important?

    I ask because the section you've posted is poorly researched and does not seem to contain any original research that has not already been published in English all over the place. It is also full or romaji spelling errors and mistranslations - so many that it would take a very long time to correct them all. I don't mean any offense to Hyakutake-san if he is the one helping you, as I'm sure he is a capable translater. For example, how the kanji for "Chikanori" end up being pronounced that way is beyond me, since the kanji used by all the Japanese sources I've seen all read "Chikatoku".

    There are actually a number of Japanese texts on Daito ryu that would provide us all with much more valuable information than the unsubstantiated opinions of whoever wrote this webpage. Why not spend your time working on these instead?

    Just curious - no offense intended,
    Firstly I don't live in Japan. Secondly, hyakutake is away teaching abroad at the moment so I tried it myself. Because I have no trouble understanding Japanese, my translation is quite fast as long as I don't care much about my English.

    Thirdly it is my first draft of translation and it is pretty much impossible to get correct pronoucination of Japanese name from kanji alone as we have multiple pronounciation for each kanji. As I said, if I tried to produce perfect work, it would never be done because I can't be bothered to do research of correct name of people which is related to Daitoryu which would take ages. I will certainly appreciate any correction to my English. By the way, I made an attempt to keep the sequence of sentence the same with Japanese and that wasn't easy I tell you.

    Forthly, he mention a specific historic research of known koryu styles practiced in Aizu han, which is very useful if you want to dig deeper. Fifthly, he mentione that he was allowed to check the entire line of transmission in the transmission book under permission from one of Daitoryu Soke. Provided that he is no liar, he is certainly someone of proper background. To add more, he deliberately kept the tone of his writing light hearted but his discussion was quite technical (well at least to me) so saying his writing is poorly research is not fair in my view. O.K. may be my poor English made his writing look far worse than it is.

    Who is the author. He seems to be a writer who write for number of martial arts magazine. There are few other writing by him in the site and he seem to know far more about koryu than average member of Ebudo which is not suprising as he has access to Japanese material. Anyway, just check his site. As of whether he is a troll or not, I can't say as I haven't seen what content in which he engage in martial arts debate.

    Why do I think that is important. Well, this Daitoryu origin being not koryu is quite new to me. As far as I know this "theory" hasn't been much known in English side of internet. As of this HKD debate is concerend, why many of daitoryu people assert line that there are no evidence of Choi doing Daitoryu and any of HKD's claim has no substance while that is the exact same thing the official line of Daitoryu seem to be doing. (Of course, if someone present with confirmation of evidence of existence of Daitoryu, I will apologise). All the threads I have seen of this HKD-Daitoryu debate, not even a single person mentioned the fact that Daitoryu's official history is in as much shaky ground as HKD's one. Plus, if you can read Wonder two, he speculate on the orign of aiki to be from weapon training. That was quite insigtful thing for me as I practice taijiquan where I train staff and broadsword.

    Now if you think that withoug any evidences, any assertion is meaningless and likely to be fabrication, then.

    HKD - False claim about link to Daitoryu. Probably based on Aikido

    Aikido - False claim about the founder "inventing" the arts. Possible McDonald version of Daitoryu with "Peace Love and Harmony.

    Daitoryu - False claim about the art being centuries old and the blood line of lineage going back to the imperial family. The Founder charging extorionate amount of money out of the lineage he falsely invented.

    P.S. I'm a blue belt in Ki aikido btw. If you have any link which provide us all with much more valuable information please post it here.
    -Youji Hajime.

    Engrish does not mine strong point

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    Lightbulb

    Dear Vapour:

    As a veteran of more HKD Origins discsussions than I really want to admit to I can probably support your contention in spirit if not in letter. But that will put you on a slippery slope that I don't think anyone really wants to discuss. After all, how many arts that are practiced genuinely qualify as "martial" (military) arts? There are a few rare exceptions like the TSKSR ( and even their lineage is suppose to have a couple of weak spots). But most are derivations from arts or are synthesized reconstructions.

    Now, I don't make this observation to troll, or antagonize anyone, or deprecate anyones' chosen art. What I am saying is that if you start down that road asking all arts to pony-up with solid documentation to support some of their claims, you will have a pretty quiet discussion group.

    There is also one other issue that concerns me about this particular approach. Once one has demonstrated what I have stated to be true, it often opens the door for some folks to play fast-&-loose with traditions. Their rationale seems to be that such practice as starting your own art but invoking greater age and lineage than you deserve is a well-known Oriental dynamic. Then, of course, its on to assuming titles like "soke" and "shihan" and using terms like "ryu" and "keishi" (sp).

    IMVHO I think we should let the Japanese decide what constructs they want to lend credence to and which they don't. Remember, there are still Americans who believe such things as "draw-downs" between cowboys were common events and that Confederate soldiers can still be seen along the tree line at Gettysburg. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

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    Default Japanese L-Fitzgerald

    Mr. Hajime,

    This reply will be tough to keep short, but I'll try my best.

    I didn't say that you lived in Japan. As far as translating quickly and not caring about the translation, I'm not sure how to reply to that. Suffice it to say that this is a very unique approach to the "art" of translation. Unfortunately, the translation is so flawed that it is very hard for even me to understand, and I am very familiar with all the subjects being discussed. Some of the names I only figured out because I've seen them mis-translated before, and had to look up the kanji to figure it out previously.

    If it makes you feel any better, I've done a fair bit of translation as well, and can sympathize with you in regards to figuring out the intended readings of kanji. However, that is what translation work is all about. A faulty translation is as bad or worse than no translation, since it will simply spread misinformation to other cultures that will be repeated for years to come. Personally, I usually will run my translations by a native speaker at some point, or work in conjunction with a native speaker. They communicate the idea or specialty words to me (most of which I already know), and I select the most appropriate English using my experience and a number of expensive jiten.

    As I said, I'd be willing to spend a half-day or so correcting the translation errors in this piece, but my time is limited, and if I'm going to spend a half day on something it will need to be research that is "more valuable".

    There have been some discussion of the various Koryu practiced in the Aizu-han. Some of it has been documented here:

    Aizu-han extant bujutsu

    I have more information in my notes,k but here is quite a bit that has not been translated yet, but is available in Japanese. Also, I believe it is Mori Sensei from DR Takumakai that has made researching the Aizu clan a hobby of his. I'd love to see him publish some of his research.

    Fifthly, he mentione that he was allowed to check the entire line of transmission in the transmission book under permission from one of Daitoryu Soke.
    If you mean that eimeiroku and shareiroku of Takeda Sokaku, much of it has been published in Japanese. A listing of the more important names in the various eimeiroku is posted on Kondo Sensei's webpage:

    http://member.nifty.ne.jp/daito-ryu/eimei.html

    Also, 2 or 3 of the eimeiroku are not accounted for, so there is no "complete" listing.

    Also, there has been only one Daito ryu "Soke", and that was Tokimune.

    However, if the author of this webpage, which for some reason you still haven't provided us with (the information is worthless without the name of who wrote it), has done some original research, we'd all be interested to read it.

    I'm sorry you don't agree that the text you have translated is poorly researched. In spite of the translation, the opinions and information is clearly superficial, and his "discoveries" and theories are not exactly ground breaking. As someone who HAS researched Daito ryu to some degree, you'll have to take my word for it.

    Who is the author. He seems to be a writer who write for number of martial arts magazine.
    Which magazine and which author? If you mean Hiden Magazine, there are a few authors that write about DR there, and much of it is not authoratative.

    There are few other writing by him in the site and he seem to know far more about koryu than average member of Ebudo which is not suprising as he has access to Japanese material.
    You might be surprised at the level of experience and knowledge some contributors on this site have. Not to imply that I am one of them, but I have a pretty large number of Japanese language budo books, and access to a very large private library full of Japanese and Chinese books and artifacts.

    Do you really think that only Japanese have access to Japanese materials?!?

    Why do I think that is important. Well, this Daitoryu origin being not koryu is quite new to me.
    Daito ryu - Gendai or Koryu?

    Just about EVERY koryu art makes some claim to have origins coming from either tengu, yamabushi or some kind of "divine inspiration". But even the majority of exponents of these arts who are of mature age do not really believe these stories. They are simply part of the tradition, legend and lore of the art. On the other hand, like in the case of Daito ryu, it is *possible* that some amount of inspiration or transmission was passed down from centuries ago, but even Kondo Sensei (who is head of the mainline of DR) admits that Takeda Sokaku *created* the name Daito ryu for his art, which is said to be a compilation of the Takeda family art, the Aizu Oshikiuchi, and Sokaku's own experience. Whether you or anyone else believes this or not is not really all that important to the members of Daito ryu. This is simply part of their oral tradition. If some of it can be proved wrong, I suspect Daito ryu people would like to know about it. Otherwise, take it for what it is.

    Sometime between 1875 and 1912, Sokaku had been using the name "Yamato ryu", which is not a different name, but rather an alternate reading of Daito ryu. I'm surprised you wouldn't know that being fluent in Japanese, since the kanji for Dai is very common, and well known phrases like "Yamato Damashii" use this kanji with that reading.

    Anyway, after 1912, he started to use the name Daito ryu. But just because the name changed doesn't mean the transmission is necessarily gendai.

    As far as I know this "theory" hasn't been much known in English side of internet.
    It's not a theory. I've rarely read or heard of anyone in Daito ryu claiming that the art was Koryu. I'm not sure they really care how old it really is, to be honest.

    As of this HKD debate is concerened, why many of daitoryu people assert line that there are no evidence of Choi doing Daitoryu and any of HKD's claim has no substance while that is the exact same thing the official line of Daitoryu seem to be doing.
    First of all, your references to HKD and Daito ryu in your first post and later posts is why I put this thread here.

    Secondly, you have a point to a degree. But there is documented evidence and physical evidence to support Daito ryu's claim up to Takeda Sokaku. Everything ealier than Sokaku is unsupported tradition, though much of it does make sense.

    Conversely, there is NO evidence at all that Choi ever met Sokaku or trained in Daito ryu. None at all, outside of some vague similarities in the curriculum. Sokaku and Jigoro Kano were probably the two most influential and famous jujutsu exponents in the Meiji and Taisho periods in Japan. It's not surprising that someone of that period might have heard of them and wanted to claim a connection.

    Origin of Daito ryu

    Plus, if you can read Wonder two, he speculate on the orign of aiki to be from weapon training.
    This is actually also somewhat well known. Sokaku specialized in weapons until about 1875. Arts prior to this time mostly used some version of the term "aiki" in their weapon arts. If this mystery author has any research on the subject in his "wonder 2" section, that also may as well be interesting to read. But everyone has opinions, and this fact does not mean that everyone wants to hear them! Educated opinions are usually welcome though.

    Daitoryu - False claim about the art being centuries old and the blood line of lineage going back to the imperial family.
    Again, I haven't really read or heard of anyone IN Daito ryu that has tried to strongly sell the public this story. The "legend" has been publisized, but it has not been presented as documented fact. Take if for what it is worth.

    The Founder charging extorionate amount of money out of the lineage he falsely invented.
    Actually, the founder (may have) charged a lot of money for what he could do, not so much what his claimed lineage was (though he is of Takeda/Minamoto lineage). Sokaku was famous for his skills, not his claims.

    P.S. I'm a blue belt in Ki aikido btw. If you have any link which provide us all with much more valuable information please post it here.
    Congratulations on your blue belt. I never got one.

    More information can be found here:

    http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/foru...?s=&forumid=13

    Why don't ya give that forum search engine a whack, read around a bit, then translate for us any information your mystery author has written that has NOT been covered on this site. We'd be interested in reading it. I'd also be happy to point you towards some more authoratative Japanese sources for you to translate if you are looking to spend time on such things. Good translations are always welcome.

    Regards,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    I'm bit drunk at the moment so if I step out of line I apologise.

    For the mystery author just go to the home page of the site. Here you go

    http://www.budoshop.co.jp/bh-index2003.html

    But why din't you use delete keys on http?. It is on the right hand side of your keyboard.

    As I say, I found this site interesting. I certainly grant you that there probably are far better research available in Japanese. But isn't it bit pointless to bring this up in a *English* *internet* forum.

    I link an internet site which is in Japanese which had quite concise summary of topic of Daitoryu which I find it informative which I translated. Then you come up with lines that "those argument/research is nothing new if you have access to Japanese material". Dahh.

    Firstly, as far as English interent forum goes, if it is not accessible by interent and not in English, isn't it bit pointless to point that out unless you actually provide the link or trnalstate teh content? You stated that there are better Japanese material. This seem to imply that these materials are not in internet, then what is the point of comparing it when the mateiral I pulled are accesible through internet.

    As of your criticism of my translation, which I accept is valid but I specifically made it clear I will just give a shot and I will update it so you criticisng the point which I made in the first place. What are you trying to get at? Are you saying I'm too correct in my initial statement that I give a shot?

    All you said is that my translation is bad (which I pretty much implied in the first place) then say that there are better Japanese material (which seems to imply that these material are not avialable in English espeically in internet), then say that these argument is old in Japan (which seems to imply that it is not old as far as non Japanese world is concerened). At least it wasn't old to me and quite few aikido and hapkido people I come across wouldn't have a clue).

    Now, even though I accept many of your criticisms, your critisim is bit too obious boardering on pointless. I just can't fail to notice that you somehow did not debate any actual topic which has been raised by this article. And I have slight feeling that you are beating around the bush. Even though you said that his work is poorly researched, you never referred to single line in his argument and or stated that you disagree with him on particular point or what he stated is factually incorrect.

    Another thing, I don't have to point out the imporatnce of going for the source material in historical research. He state that he actually examined the actual Densho and stated what he saw. I think the information he provided deserve some credit but you still say theare are better info and this is nothing new.

    In my experience, this happen, when someone don't really like what they hear but can't find the fault in the argument so they decided to attack something which is totally obvious and beyone debate.

    To be honest, I have seen extremly similar line in HKD/TKD trolling.
    "Master **** never denied their link to Choi" or "General Choi never denied he learned karate." "Who care about lineage. "

    I guess 7W of Daitoryu don't deserve a separate thread but belong firmly in HKD-Daitoryu thread.

    Btw, if you can edit my awful translation, I certainly appreciate it.
    Last edited by Vapour; 30th August 2003 at 05:00.
    -Youji Hajime.

    Engrish does not mine strong point

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    Originally posted by glad2bhere
    Dear Vapour:

    As a veteran of more HKD Origins discsussions than I really want to admit to I can probably support your contention in spirit if not in letter. But that will put you on a slippery slope that I don't think anyone really wants to discuss. After all, how many arts that are practiced genuinely qualify as "martial" (military) arts? There are a few rare exceptions like the TSKSR ( and even their lineage is suppose to have a couple of weak spots). But most are derivations from arts or are synthesized reconstructions.

    Now, I don't make this observation to troll, or antagonize anyone, or deprecate anyones' chosen art. What I am saying is that if you start down that road asking all arts to pony-up with solid documentation to support some of their claims, you will have a pretty quiet discussion group.

    There is also one other issue that concerns me about this particular approach. Once one has demonstrated what I have stated to be true, it often opens the door for some folks to play fast-&-loose with traditions. Their rationale seems to be that such practice as starting your own art but invoking greater age and lineage than you deserve is a well-known Oriental dynamic. Then, of course, its on to assuming titles like "soke" and "shihan" and using terms like "ryu" and "keishi" (sp).

    IMVHO I think we should let the Japanese decide what constructs they want to lend credence to and which they don't. Remember, there are still Americans who believe such things as "draw-downs" between cowboys were common events and that Confederate soldiers can still be seen along the tree line at Gettysburg. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    If you can't show it, shouldn't one remain silent. I thought steping out from this line is a slippery slope.

    As far as observing HKD-Daitoryu line, I pretty much consider that HKD claim to be fabrication. I also read the interview of Choi in which he not only claim to be the chief instructor of Daitoryu and the leader of the demonstration team of Sokaku's Hawai trip, but also to be an martial arts instructor of Japanese royal family. I thought that was boardering on absurd.

    Then I come across a site which show that Daitoryu's claim is as much shaky ground as HKD and this never seemed to be mentioned by Daitoryu people when they troll with HKD people.

    So either they are not aware of this which is what I naively assumed when I posted the link, or they know it but decided not to mention it which doesn't speak well of their honesty in debate.

    Now when I put this link up, suddenly I get a guy telling me that this is so well known stuff and, in fact, senior people actually are honest and acknowledge this despite the fact that the official line is still Daitoryu is nearly millenium old while at the same time mocking TKD/HKD is 2000 years old line. I'm having a dejavu. I saw a similar line when some people mock HKD's official claim about 2000 years line then a HKD guy came up and say that his grad master never denied the link to Choi. I even get mocked for being a blue belt newb while as far as historical examination goes, there are little point in rank seniority.

    Hello? Am I alone in feeling that this lineage debate is absolute pile of dung.
    Last edited by Vapour; 30th August 2003 at 05:52.
    -Youji Hajime.

    Engrish does not mine strong point

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    Jesus. You know what, go ahead and post all your translations here if you want. I won't criticize it any further or offer any comments of corrections. Have fun.

    What I said before was that the information you've translated, and the questions the mystery author of the aritcle asks, have already been addressed IN ENGLISH. Not Japanese. English. If you actually look at the links that I took the time to include to you in my last post, you would know this.

    But you obviously have some kind of agenda, so go ahead with your campaign and we'll sit it out and see where it goes. If it ends up having nothing to do with Korean Arts, I'll move this to a new thread.

    The host of the budoshop page these translations are coming from is a "researcher of classical martial arts" named Yoshimine Yasuo. The individual essays on his site are not signed, so I guess it is safe to assume that he is the mystery writer of the whole site, including this one, if anyone else cares. I can't find much on him on the web in English or Japanese, so who knows.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Dear Nathan:

    I guess I'm with you. Past experience has taught me that these discussions won't actually go anywhere --- maybe in circles--- but who am I to get in the way of another persons' project? As you say, lets' let the project move ahead and see what turns up?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

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