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Thread: In Search Gankaku's History

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    Default In Search Gankaku's History

    Hello All,

    I have been searching many sites on the nest in regards to the kata "Gankaku" Some sites indicated that this was originaly known as "chinto". And chinto came from China. The japanese modfied and called Gankaku. supposively Chotoku Kyan taught this kata to Tatsou Shimaboku, thus I can assume that Isshinryu modified the chinto into gankaku ?

    My question are:

    Where did it really come from ?
    Who was the first okinawan to teach it ?
    When did this kata became known as "Gankaku" ?
    Who "modified" this ?
    Did it come from Shuri, Naha or Tomari ?
    What style primarily uses it?


    Sorry guys , I love this kata a lot and would like to have some knowledge about it.

    Thanks for those who resposes in advance !
    Prince Loeffler
    Shugyokan Dojo

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    Kyan taught a different chinto from that which became Gankaku. In the late 80's Hirokazu Kanazawa added this Kyan No Chinto to his curriculum, "shotokanized" it and named it Gankaku Sho.

    And, Prince, it was an Okinawan transplant to Japan that renamed Chinto to Gankaku. His name was Gichin Funakoshi. Other Japanese styles, like Shito Ryu, Wado Ryu, etc. still call Chinto, "Chinto".


    If you look at the Itosu line chinto from Shito Ryu or from the Shorinkan, it maps almost exactly with the Shotokan Gankaku.


    So, to answer some of your questions:

    Funakoshi renamed it.

    Shotokan is the school that practices Gankaku. Someone in the Shotokan line modified (changed stances) Itosu's chinto to Gankakau

    Loads of Okinawans taught Chinto.

    It's an Itosu kata (The one that Itosu taught). Kyan's Chinto is a bit different and is perhaps a tomari lineage. Jussi?

    Lots of styles do Chinto.




    Rob
    Last edited by Rob Alvelais; 14th September 2003 at 22:58.

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    It is still known as chinto in most styles.
    It was renamed to gankaku and modified by Funakoshi (founder of shotokan). But he was not the first to modify it, there are several versions. I dont know if isshinryu does a funakoshi version though.
    I dont read chinese or japanese (esp, not kanji) but Im told Chinto translates as Fight/battle to the east.

    It is very old, and noone realy know where it came from.
    It is classed as originaly a Naha kata, but was taught by Matsumura of Tomari (1792-188?) who was the teacher of among other anko itosu, chotoku kyan and choyu (brother of choki) Motobu.
    Today is today more common in shuri descended styles (shorinryu, shitoryu etc) and lives as gankaku in shotokan and derivatives.
    Martin Hultgren
    Kyokushinkai, Sweden

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    Thanks Rob and Martin,

    This is great. Its interesting to know kata lineage. I am just kinda surprise why the author is unknown.

    Right now as I understand Chinto spawned Gankaku ...Are there any other kata that are taken from Gankaku ?

    Overall, What do you think of this kata ? Do you like ?
    Prince Loeffler
    Shugyokan Dojo

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    taken from gankaku?
    What?
    (OK its in the middle of the night and im tired)
    I know there are matsumura no chinto (a more tomari version. I think that is the one taught by kyan)and itosu no chinto (modified from matsumuras version by itosu, his student). Gankaku (from itosus version, further modified by funakoshi), and apparently from robs post, a gankaku sho, altough I never heard of it (but then its way outside my style of choice).

    I think it looks good, but it is not a part of my style (altough it once was. it was among the katas originaly taught in the very early days of kyokushin, but was removed to keep the number of katas down, in favour of kumite), and I have never tried to learn it.
    I prefere the chinto versions to the gankaku though.
    Martin Hultgren
    Kyokushinkai, Sweden

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    Originally posted by Martin H
    Gankaku (from itosus version, further modified by funakoshi), and apparently from robs post, a gankaku sho, altough I never heard of it (but then its way outside my style of choice).
    Kyan no Chinto >>H. Kanazawa's modifications >> Gankaku Sho

    Rob

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    Default Re: It is as it was

    Originally posted by Troof
    [B]Chinto is the only name ever used by most styles, with the EXCEPTION of Shotokan. I have been told that Chinto was a chinese "sailor" (pirate?)
    I've heard from my Japanese karate sources that "Chinto" is someones name. An interesting anecdote. One of my Chinese students who is literate in Chinese, looked at the characters for "chinto" and said that it was someone's name. Sort of a nickname sort of thing. Other than this, we've never discussed the name or it's origin, either prior or subsequently.
    Chinto has been said to mean "crane on a rock", "fighting in the city" or "fighting in the east". My sensei uses the former rather than the last two definitions of this name.
    "Chinto" from all that I've been told does NOT mean "Crane on a Rock" "Gankaku" is crane on a rock.

    It is not a Kosaku Matsumora (Tomari Te) or Kyan kata.
    Chotoku Kyan teaches a version of Chinto that varies significantly from the Chinto that one sees in either Shito Ryu or Shorinkan Shorin Ryu organization (Kobayashi Shorin Ryu). This Chinto (that I call Kyan no Chinto, since it's the Kyan lineages that do the kata this way, i.e., seibukan/ isshin ryu/ matsubayashi Shorin Ryu/renshinkan shorinji ryu, etc). Whether Kyan made the changes or he learned the kata this way, it's a different kata than either Gankaku, or the Chinto in the Itosu lines (i.e., shorinkan, shito ryu, etc.)

    Rob

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    Troof, I think there is a Kyan version, but I'm not sure what it looks like. The one we do is the same one the Shorin guys do. You can find it in Nagamine's book. It is the only kata I have ever heard referred to as Chinto. Gankaku is a showy, weird kata, that people always used to want to do in tournaments but could never pull off because all the most difficult moves are straight line right in front of the judges I am so tired of all the hangover from Funakoshi's kiss ass relationship with the Japanese. Hey, all you Shotokan guys...all those kata you do, they ain't Okinawan, they ain't what they were intended to be, and Funakoshi, I think, went too far in trying to please the Japanese. Chinto is a very nice kata and one of my favorites, also. Gene

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    Originally posted by Gene Williams
    [B]Troof, I think there is a Kyan version, but I'm not sure what it looks like. The one we do is the same one the Shorin guys do. You can find it in Nagamine's book. It is the only kata I have ever heard referred to as Chinto.

    Gene, if you're doing the kata like in Nagamine's book, you're doing the Kyan Chinto.

    True Shito Ryu people don't do the kata that way!

    Rob

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    Originally posted by Gene Williams
    .... I am so tired of all the hangover from Funakoshi's kiss ass relationship with the Japanese. Hey, all you Shotokan guys...all those kata you do, they ain't Okinawan, they ain't what they were intended to be, and Funakoshi, I think, went too far in trying to please the Japanese. ...
    Are you sure it was him who did all of this. I'm not. I don't think the old man was necessarily the guilty party. If he did do all of this editing may be that is why he changed the names of all the forms.
    Ed Boyd

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    At some point the blame rises, or did you accept Clinton's attibuting of the responsibility for Waco to Janet Reno?

    Shotokai's Gankaku is similar to the JKA's is it not? If Gigo mucked with it then, isn't Gichin still responsible, given that he was the main man and the cultural requirements to defer to the father/senior/ jefe?

    Rob


    Originally posted by CEB
    Are you sure it was him who did all of this. I'm not. I don't think the old man was necessarily the guilty party. If he did do all of this editing may be that is why he changed the names of all the forms.

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    Default Re: Hahaha

    Originally posted by Troof
    ....
    Anyway, I have never seen Gankaku. If it is at all like Chinto then it is a good form. I know that the Matsubayashi version (Kyan's version), is similar to, but still very different from the Matsumura Seito or Shorinkan versions I know. I would suspect that Shidokan's is similar to Shorinkan's.
    ...
    Gankaku is the same form as the Seito Matsumura Chinto. Same embussen and same 'technique' sequences, except they have sort of been stretched slightly out of proportion. Something I have never understood in Shotokan kata is what are they supposed to be doing in the sequences where you are moving toward the rear before the posture when you choke the dude out on the floor. The Shotokan guys have their rear hands in a fist way up over their heads. (they do this in Basai and just about every other kata I've seen them do) I can't figure out why they do this instead of keeping their guard where it still guards. Plus the kensetsu waza (tuite) is done with fist about chin height with elbow down, If you want to go beyond just the boxing aspects of the form. I'm just a Goju Guy with a question so don't anybody get upset with me. I'm just confused as usual.
    Ed Boyd

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    I am an avid fan of the Chinto kata as well. From what I have read on it there are 2 main fersions even though I know there many slightly different veersions. one is done in the straight line some call this shuri chinto much like gunkaku. The other is done on an diagonal line, some call tihs tomori chinto and so on and so on. I have seen the straight line version of chinto and it is a nice kata but the diagonal version seems to have a better run of bunkai. Just my opinion.
    Ron Davis
    Motobu ha Shito ryu Karate-do

    Karate is not a sport, it is a way of life!

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    If you've not seen it it's probably because you didn't want to. It's everywhere, like dandylions or crabgrass!

    Gankaku and other Shotokan kata: http://www.edu-do.ee/video.htm

    Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu Chinto: http://www.shorinryu.dk/html/kata.htm#chinto
    Wado Ryu Chinto:
    http://www.usankf.org/f56/f6/f6ab_4_...1_3_Chinto.htm

    Kobayashi Shorin Ryu (a teaser clip)
    http://www.shoryukan.com/movies/kata/chinto.mov


    Oh, while I was surfing, I found this: Steve Ritterspoon's website: http://www.inch.com/~sritter/ezoint.html


    2. Did Kyan catch Chinto from Matsumora Kosaku? Did Kyan develop his own version of Chinto? Which version of Chinto is practiced by us?

    We practice Master Kyan’s version of this kata. Master Kyan learned this kata from Matsumora Kosaku.


    Rob
    Originally posted by Troof


    Anyway, I have never seen Gankaku. If it is at all like Chinto then it is a good form. I know that the Matsubayashi version (Kyan's version), is similar to, but still very different from the Matsumura Seito or Shorinkan versions I know. I would suspect that Shidokan's is similar to Shorinkan's.

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    Default Re: Hahaha

    Originally posted by Troof
    Anyway, yeah Shotokan is a solid style, but they seem to think they are the protector's of the grail. They should tell all their students the true history of karate, and that way they won't get yelled at on E-Budo by high ranking Shito Kyoshi, hahahaha (j/k)!

    ...Anyway, it's a great form and I'm gonna go do it right now (the Matsumura Orthodox one)! Bye...
    But..see.. I got this cup here when I tested nidan.. you mean its not real? Damnit... must trade it in for shrubbery then!!

    M

    Gankaku...African crane or European?

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