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Thread: In Search Gankaku's History

  1. #16
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    Default Re: Re: Hahaha

    Originally posted by Margaret Lo
    ....
    Gankaku...African crane or European?
    I don't know. AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! splat.
    Ed Boyd

  2. #17
    Gene Williams Guest

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    Rob, Well, I guess that solves the mystery (for me) of what the Kyan Chinto looks like, then True Shito guys may not do it that way, but I learned it from Kuniba Anyway, great kata. Gene

  3. #18
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    Hi Gene,

    I imagine that Kuniba learned it from Nagamine?

    Anyway, I didn't want imply that it was a lousy kata. I think it's really quite nifty. I was just throwing rocks at an old grizzled possum. ;-)

    Rob

    Originally posted by Gene Williams
    Rob, Well, I guess that solves the mystery (for me) of what the Kyan Chinto looks like, then True Shito guys may not do it that way, but I learned it from Kuniba Anyway, great kata. Gene

  4. #19
    RobertW Guest

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    My teacher who is Okinawan told us that the Kata names were changed because the mainland Japanese didn't like to call them by the Chinese the katas were named for. Names like "Passai" and "Kusanku" became "Bassai" and "Kanku", and Chinto is no exception.

    Gene............HAI

  5. #20
    hector gomez Guest

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    The very essence of traditional martial arts has always revolved around change and improvement.Ever since Daruma presented the 18 hands of lohan to the shaolin monks around 516AD,man has changed the movements of the martial arts inorder to improve upon the past.


    If you look at Chinese history,you see the connection with"CHANGE"for the sake of "IMPROVEMENT"from 516AD to the 1800s.


    Why do we want to stop time at around the 1800s?




    PS:M LO you nailed it right,J Lo finally did knee benny boy!and don't worry about a thing,Shotokan is or was just following tradition.


    Hector Gomez

  6. #21
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    Your instructor needs to get out more. There are more Japanese styles of karate than Shotokan.

    Wado Ryu and Shito Ryu, both considered "Japanese Styles", call the kata Chinto and not Gankaku. Same with Genseiryu (Chinto and not gankaku). These groups also don't use Kanku. Only Shotokan and some of it's derivatives (Kyokushin) use Kanku. Shito and Wado use Kosokun/Kusanku. Japanese vs. Okinawan pronounciations of the very same characters.

    As for Passai vs. Bassai or Kushanku vs. Kosokun, that's simply a dialectic thing.
    Same as "Washington" vs. "Warshington" or "Car"(most everywhere) vs. "Caaa" (Boston). It's a horse of a different color than the Chinto Gankaku thing, since chinto and gankaku are completely different words with different characters and meanings.

    Kosokun/Kushanku and Passai/Bassai are different pronounciations of the same characters and not completely different words.

    Also, Funakoshi's changing of the terms really didn't take hold, even within Shotokan. He had proposed a bunch of new and different names for other kata, like Gojushiho and others, but they didn't take hold. Only Gankaku, Kanku and Empi.


    Rob

    Originally posted by RobertW
    My teacher who is Okinawan told us that the Kata names were changed because the mainland Japanese didn't like to call them by the Chinese the katas were named for. Names like "Passai" and "Kusanku" became "Bassai" and "Kanku", and Chinto is no exception.

    Gene............HAI

  7. #22
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    Default Confucius Say:

    Originally posted by RobertW
    My teacher who is Okinawan told us that the Kata names were changed because the mainland Japanese didn't like to call them by the Chinese the katas were named for. ....
    I don't know if I buy into that. Maybe its true because I have heard that said by a lot of people. I would feel that because of the Confucianistic nature of Japanese society that there would be a strong desire and/or need to tie their karate back to Chinese roots.

    Like I said I heard that point brought up by many karate people so there is probably something to it. But I have trouble with it. I'm probably wrong. I'm not much a karate guy but I'm a pretty fair piano player.
    Ed Boyd

  8. #23
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    Default Re: Straight 45...

    Originally posted by Troof

    Maggie,
    Are you drinking wine out of the cup again? I like Shotokan and its karate-ka. We're from the same family...
    Heck Lee, the Japanese and Okinawan styles are certainly deficient in drunken forms. Don't fret, everybody knows shotokan types are not known for their acknowledgment or understanding of its Okinawan origins.

    PS:M LO you nailed it right,J Lo finally did knee benny boy!and don't worry about a thing,Shotokan is or was just following tradition.

    Dang, I was hoping to lay bets on the divorce, when, how much and looking forward to tawdry tell alls.

    M

  9. #24
    RobertW Guest

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    What's with some of the tones on this forum? My teacher needs to get out more?

  10. #25
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    Default (re)(re)naming

    Don't know how to judge the value of this information but there are some stories on 24fightingchickens about Funakoshi renameing the kata's. If I remember correctly these stories tell about the Japanese liking the chinese / okinawan names better. I do know Ohtsuka changed the names back to the original names. He was very Japanese. I'll try to find the link.
    Casper Baar

  11. #26
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    Sorry, if that was a bit harsh.

    But really, anyone who thinks that either Shotokan is the only Japanese style of karate or that all the Japanese styles of karate are just like Shotokan needs to get out a bit more. It's a terribly uninformed and myopic view.

    As for me, I'd be careful attibuting broad sweeping statements to my instr.

    Rob


    Originally posted by RobertW
    What's with some of the tones on this forum? My teacher needs to get out more?

  12. #27
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  13. #28
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    Default Re: hope this helps

    Mr. Kanazawa's books on kata also reference alternate names for kata that Mr. Funakoshi proposed. It's been a while since I've read Rob's page, but as I recall, it was consistent with the info in Mr. Kanazawa's books.



  14. #29
    RobertW Guest

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    Rob I appreciate the comment greatly.
    I was only offring some possible input. I think like most things that there is likely a combination of facts to make up the truth. Perhaps my post would have been received better if I were to put a question mark after it.
    As everyone knows, there are many different organisations that practice, both Okinawan and Japanese, Karate. Every one oif these has a slightly different idea of what is proper. Could it be true, perhaps that the founder of Shito ryu , Mr. Mabuni, wanted to show proper respect to his teachers by keeping Kata names the same?

  15. #30
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    Default

    Originally posted by RobertW
    Could it be true, perhaps that the founder of Shito ryu , Mr. Mabuni, wanted to show proper respect to his teachers by keeping Kata names the same?
    Don't know. But, he wasn't alone in maintaining the names. I don't believe Kanken Toyama changed the names, likewise with Chitose.

    Rob

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