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Thread: BJJ vs. JJJ

  1. #16
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    Hi all,

    i am not sure, but wasn't the Fusen Ryu the source for the judo groundwork...??

    regards

    Ruediger Meier

  2. #17
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

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    Toby,

    Good post! I for one was surprised at the differences in mindset and application that I experienced coming from a "sport" jujutsu background and then trying to use it , while armed, on the street. Realizing I needed a different approach, I looked for a classical system, as I felt that would teach me the finer points of "tactical" grappling with weapons (either in my hand, in his hand, in both our hands, or on our persons). But here here on the approach-to-training points you make.

    The submission stuff had to really be modified when the presence of weapons became a reality, though I keep up the submission grappling for fun, stress relief and skill/conditioning development.

    Kit LeBlanc

    P.S. I got the chance to meet, briefly, Ken Good when he was teaching the Surefire Low Light class here in Vancouver. Did not get to attend the class, but I hear good things about it. Ken and I spoke about the applications that classical, weapons based jujutsu has for the modern LEO/tactical operator. I hope to take the class when next they come around.

  3. #18
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    Kit,

    Thanks for the compliment. It's funny you should mention Ken Good. He's a great guy and good frioend. I just spent the weekend with him at a seminar in San Diego. He really knows his stuff. We are definitely on the same page concerning realistic training and the effects of psychochemical stress. It is of paramount importance in training for realistic self defense. Most Jujutsu systems are so subtle in application that the slightest loss of fine motor skills and spatial awareness renders them impossible to apply effectively. Without addressing this aspect of combat you will not have the tools available to be successful on the street.

    Definitely train with Ken at your first opportunity. It'll be worth every cent and may save your life someday.

    Toby Threadgill

  4. #19
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

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    Toby,

    Right on. This is a discussion I have also had with fellow practitioners-under stress, a lot of the sophisticated "sensitivity to an opponents energy" stuff will go right out the window. While some may denigrate some of the older (Sengoku era) jujutsu methods as "crude," "primitive," or "unsophisiticated..." there is a reason they were like that. The founders of these methods were combat experienced and knew the difference between practical technique under stress versus ever greater refinements of fine motor skills, pressure sensitivity, and skeletal/postural organization.

    Now to bring things back on topic, here is a plug for incorporating BJJ/submission training into your regimen if you are a classical jujutsu practitioner. It tests your ability to use your art. BJJ sparring ("rolling" to those who love it) puts you in bad positions, sometimes very bad positions, often with people much heavier and stronger than you are on top of you or crunching you down, restricting your breathing. You learn to calmly use effective jujutsu technique from such bad positions, and can often get your opponent in a control position then submit him.

    BJJ/submission focusses on a limited set of competition techniques, granted. But they do tend to be movements which will work under stress. Admittedly not like survival stress, but a helpful stress inoculation nonetheless, through confidence in reversing bad positions. Frankly, I have seen several people PANIC when they are underneath some big guy, can barely breathe, and are having a hard time changing their position.

    BJJ /submission can be adapted to the needs of the situation. They are not bound to use competition technique in an actual combative encounter, though muchof it will work. Just like classical jujutsu is practiced in a manner that prevents injury or death (kata), add "kata" to BJJ by adapting more dangerous striking movements, gouges, or drawing a knife for a finish when you have the opponent in a control position and practicing them. Rolling hones other skills.


    Kit LeBlanc

  5. #20
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    "Also Brazilian jujitsu is not complicated"

    As a cross trainer in Japanese Jujutsu and Brazilian Jui Jitsu, let me first and foremost explain that this comment is quite inaccurate. The stereotype of BJJ is that it's full of bravado and it's just getting on the ground, wrestling for awhile until you can find an armlock or two. This is highly inaccurate. Techniques in BJJ are complicated, yet lack the "feeling" arts Budo arts incorporate.

    During my first class, my BJJ instructor explained something quite clear and simple to those of us that were just starting out.

    "Don't fool yourself. This is a sport"

    I smiled at this. On newsgroups and the like, people boast on and on about BJJ's combat effectiveness, and this man in his vast experiance cleared that question up right off of the bat.

    BJJ is incredibly technical when it comes to ne-waza (and yes..they look at you funny when you use the term), but lacks highly on atemi waza and nage waza. Often during tournaments (I've been told by others, as I don't compete) that Judoka will simply throw a BJJ practitioner, step back and make them get up...it's easier to win that way for them.

    On the ground, yes, BJJ came from Judo, and like all arts that come from another, is modified.

    I guess the biggest thing between studying BJJ and Jujutsu is the fact that 90% of the BJJ people at the school are there to learn to fight, or to learn how to do "full contact" tournaments, while in Budo classes, people are looking for something much deeper, and I believe it was Toby that mentioned, are searching not to fight, whatever that perticular definition means in their individual lives.

    Back to the original posting however, to me, honestly, as a traditionalist, it is disheartening to me to even hear my fellow BJJ'ers call what they do "Jujutsu". A handful of times, they will talk to me about Budo that I study. When I say "Traditional Japanese Jujutsu" they ask, "Wow, what sorta stuff do you guys do in that?" which I like very much.

    To be honest, I had a negative stereotype of BJJ until training with them. Our end goals are different, possibly, but the people I train with are good folks...and very eager to hear about Japanese Jujutsu, instead of brushing it off as some "weaker" art.

    Take care,

    Jay Bell

    ------------------
    ------------
    Banpen Fugyo

  6. #21
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    Hi all,

    I periodically train with a bjj group and have found that for pure grappling they will typically force a draw and sometimes a tap out. When we grapple jjj style with strikes, pressure points, etc. added in they are generally not able to respond. The local bjj boys are a quick study and have started incorporating many of my "tricks" conversly the have helped me immensely. Diffent goals but they are very good at what they do.

    will

  7. #22
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

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    Jay,

    I don't think BJJ is complicated. Sophisticated, yes, but not complicated. Having trained in BJJ methods under students of Rickson Gracie, Marcelo Alonso, and others, I have found the most effective techniques to be basic methods strung together in highly effective and innovative ways. Complicated techniques tend not to work under stress. Having just watched a student police officer I taught perform a BJJ rear mount to a handcuffing technique , a technique she learned earlier just this week, andcompletely control a combative mental subject, I can safely state that I think it is easy to learn and make work under less than ideal conditions. Rorion Gracie stated in an Aikido Journal interview some time back that he can teach someone everything he knows in something like 40 or so classes. It's learning how to make it work like he can that takes the time.

    But I think it is sport. I work in body armor and wear weapons. This includes in full tactical gear. I have found some aspects of BJJ useful and very effective in this environment (see above). There are other aspects meant for the ring, and the ring is where they should stay. There are elements which would be ill advised in a weapons-based, armor wearing environment. The Gracie's teach a different curriculum to law enforcement officers requiring separate certification, because they realize that the challenges and concerns are different in a street environment.

    Kit LeBlanc

    [This message has been edited by Kit LeBlanc (edited 06-03-2000).]

  8. #23
    MarkF Guest

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    To answer the question of grappling of judo and Fusen ryu, you are correct, but only so far. The grappling of judo does come from kito ryu, with a little of everything which Kano could get his hands on. One thing which completes the picture of judo ne waza, is that western freestyle was also included, but not until a later date when Kano was given a demonstration of it. Originally, judo was arranged so that Nagewaza was the first to be learned, then ne waza, and finally atemi waza. That is, Kano put that importance on each. He had said that all waza of judo was to be practiced equally. If one is given the choice, or there is good reason not to practice ne waza, then nage waza is most important. Balance is very important in order to stay away from the mat, but I have never seen a judoka in shiai who wouldn't immediately go for a katame waza technique if that is where both ended up, or when an opportunity presented itself, go to the mat. Pinning is far from the only option.

    BTW: Yes, it does say in Kodokan judo that nage waza and ne waza is taken from kitoryu, and atemi from tenjin shinyo, but that hasn't stoppend practitioners of classical judo from adding their spin on it. There were many different stylists of jujutsu at the Kodokan early on. Saigo Shiro was early on so what did a great practioner of daito ryu aiki jujutsu add to the mix? No one since has been able to describe or even say how his "yama arashi" throw was accomplished, and the best guess is hane goshi, but I have also heard harai goshi, seoi nage/otoshi, and others.

    Sorry, just wanted to continue the discussion a little



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    Mark F. Feigenbaum

  9. #24
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    Mark,
    I would like to thank you for your postings! You have given me a much better sense of the richness of Judo and the depth of it's technique. Have you considered writing a book, or a series of articles based on your correspondence?

    ------------------
    Krzysztof M. Mathews
    " For I am the Cat who walks by himself, and all places are alike to me"
    -Rudyard Kipling

  10. #25
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    Wink

    Just remember, if not for a Japanese immigrant to Brazil, there would be NO Brazillian Jujutsu or Gracie Jujutsu.

    ------------------
    With respect,

    Mitch Saret

  11. #26
    MarkF Guest

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    Thank you for the very kind words, Krzysztof. I have been considering a book but those with much more talent than I have problems getting their work published. It also is quite another thing to actually sit down and say to one's self "I am going to write a book." Thank you again. If I do, you will be certain to get credit as an inspiration for doing it.

    Mitch,
    That is something which has been forgotten along the way. No matter what you call jujutsu in Brazil it was inspired and indeed was taken from several jujutsu practioners who found their way into South America. Maeda, or "Conde Coma" comes to mind. One positive note for BJJ is that they have never accepted challenge matches from JJJers, at least, those which were jujutsu Vs BJJ, or judo Vs. BJJ. They have, for the most part, only done exhibitions and that was fairly early on. The last of these exhibitions was one involving Masahiko Kimura and Helio Gracie. I won't comment on those Gracie's or others who have taken part in UFC contests, as I have not see them, but on the mat, they are difficult, if not nearly impossible to beat, if submission grappling only is the goal. AS to it being a sport, I see no problem with that at all as many fights end up on the ground anyway. There is a commmon misconception concerning judo as well, and I will defend my combative sport "to the death." However, the descrptions of atemi, kyusho (ate), kata ate (kicking, head butts) are also a good part of the complete judo CV. The problem may be found in dojos whose judoka are unaware of the important inclusion of atemi waza, as there is also a lack of judo's original goshin jutsu. The lesson here is: Don't take anything for granted.



    ------------------
    Mark F. Feigenbaum

  12. #27
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    Thumbs down WRONG!

    Originally posted by Neil Hawkins
    They tend to lack finesse and have a poor concept of balance, which is important anywhere.
    This is plain old WRONG! Sir, you need to train with a BJJ Black Belt!
    I doubt you will, or will others that think BJJ is just "judo" or just "sport". Fact is, train with a black belt and you will see how totally wrong the above statement is.

    The main thing he said though was that BJJ totally ignored the standing up stuff. They taught get to the ground anyway possible then fight. He was amazed that when we were standing and I took him down to the ground there was little room for him to manoeuvre, I retained control all the way. In the end it was my lack of fitness (must work on that!) rather than his technique that allowed him to get anything on me.
    Again with all due respect, WRONG! There are kicks, punches and clinching and throwing in BJJ, i.e. stand up fighting.

    This is so common, people dabble in BJJ and then go to others claiming knowledge in BJJ and make a bad name for it. It is simple as night and day, find a black belt, then tell me about your Bjj experience. Because if you do, there will be no need to argue, you will know...

    Best,

    -Rick

  13. #28
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    Post Traditions or 'reality'?

    Hi all,
    Just a short point that has no doubt already been done over but to me the point of studying the Traditional forms of these arts is that there is SO much more to it than simply defeating an opponent.
    If I wanted to become a good 'street-fighter' then there are now a never-ending amount of ways to gain that goal (Guns for one. The Japanese have already gone through that whole discussion.."Surely I can kill more with Guns" Proven in conflict but calmed down by the Tokugawa period and generally seen as subservient to the 'honour' of the blade).
    I have more respect however for the history, the 'Rei' side of the Japanese Bujutsu and although the arts can and are used in defense/attack/submission etc. I have found that there is far, far more to it than this. An art that loses that respect for life loses more than simply 'feeling'..In my mind it becomes a 'simple' tool..Useful for kicking the hell out of someone but devoid of any real sense of 'honour' (for want of a better word).
    I am NOT saying that this IS what has happened in BJJ. But the 'general' perception of it is more brutal, harsh, hard and thus "street-effective" than are the original Yawara teachings that I believe in. People who do not know better are therefore assuming that BJJ 'IS' Jujutsu..Whether this is detrimental to the 'Kodo' I truly doubt. There will always be people like those here that care to find out more than waza alone..A search for something deeper that has kept Jujutsu and Bujutsu generally alive and well for over 500 years.
    I do NOT mean to put down anybody training in BJJ..I DO respect the art and if there is more to it than I think I would welcome the news.
    Abayo.
    Ben Sharples.
    智は知恵、仁は思いやり、勇は勇気と説いています。

  14. #29
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    Ben,

    martial arts are adaption to circumstance. BJJ, is an adaption of Ju Jutsu and Judo to a specific circumstance. That is one on one, non-weapon fighting. In that environment, it is exceedingly good! One point is that it has adapted allot from it's roots and is a very unique art onto it's self although an onlooker may see it and think, oh, this is Judo... No it is not. People need to experience i.e roll, with a black belt or higher to really see the smoothness, timing, sensitivity and skill involved, it is a beutiful art!

    Also, BJJ is adapting all the time, as late as 1993 the takedowns in BJJ were very basic, most people really can't defend a takedown well unless trained to do so, but as American wrestling and greco Roman (NOT High school which is freestyle or folk style. Which BTW is also good) But I am talking Greco and Olympic class wrestling, I promise you, if you train with an olympic level wrestler (which is like "black belt level")you will be in awe! There is SO much skill there. The BJJ people are now training with and adding wrestling to what they do, just as they have added Boxing and Muay Thai, it is still growing.

    But again, for speciffic circumstances! There are people who train BJJ just for sport Jiu Jitsu (no strikes W/Gi) or Vale Tudo (No gi W/strikes) or street (Vale Tudo W/dirty tactics)

    In my experience, most people in BJJ, not ALL but most in **MY** experience are not really interested in spiritual training, Japanese culture, tradition etc... Instead, they are after fast self defense, sport, work out etc.. Which is fine of course...

    But if you look at traditional Ju Jutsu, look the circumstance it was born in, taking someone down to the ground and keeping them there was not the best idea was it? There situation (traditional) was more akin to what your average person today might face in an assult.

    Really, if we ever need our skill, it will be in an assult. Bar fights and the like can be simply avoided! Bars, clubs etc. are a breeding ground for fights, just avoid it... But an assult, almost allways there is a weapon, multipal attackers, or the attacker has some sort of advantage and any way, they plan on doing great harm, this is the home of traditional Ju Jutsu.

    Last, how often will we be assulted? Not ofetn say the odds, so then traditional training what is it good for? Many things as well you know. It improves the quality of our life, and us as people therefore society. A sport is a sport, nothing wrong with that, but it is what it is...

    I am rambling...

    Best,

    -Rick

  15. #30
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    Default Attitude Adjustment

    Aloha all,

    I would like to say that this is a very interesting subject/discussion and agree with many viewpoints that have been put forth.

    I would like to give my limited opinion on BJJ in ***MY*** experience with the style.

    At the time, I was a former Shorin-ryu student and current Hawaiian Lua practitioner. Several friends of my roommate came to visit us from the Big Island (Hawaii). These guys were dedicated BJJ practitioners, done it for years. I returned from class to find them with my roommate looking up UFC type websites on my computer. At this point, I didn't know they were BJJ guys. I asked them..." oh, UFC, you guys like watching that type of stuff?"

    The reply of, "hell yeah...its the only real martial art worth paying attention to. besides, all other martial arts are just a bunch of p***y s**t compared to submission fighting. I'll take on anyone else from any other style and beat ther a**."

    Needless to say that was quite an insult to me and the styles I practiced. My roommate about choked on his sandwich when he heard his friend's reply as he knew I was quite upset.

    I proceeded to ask him why he thought other martial arts were worthless. "Because. Look at the UFC. Karate guys enter and loose. Kung fu guys enter and loose. etc. etc. BJJ is the only martial art to practice. Why are you so concerned about this?"

    My reply: "Well, I happen to think that BJJ is only good at UFC, because the rules of UFC benefit your style. I'd love to see you enter a full contact karate match, or anyone from BJJ for that matter. Know what will happen? You will loose. Know why? The rules will favor karate over BJJ."

    Well at this point he was steaming mad. His hands were literally shaking on the keyboard and mouse as he sat at the computer. I know he wasn't just a hothead beginner either, my roommate later informed me his friend was a seven or eight year member of the gym where he learned BJJ. Okay, so that is a relatively short amount of training, but he had attained a relatively high rank, so I'm told.

    I wanted to share this experience to bring an important point to surface. We have all agreed that BJJ is something different from Judo and Classical Jujutsu, and we all respect what BJJ is. However, BJJ is overly full of people who do not see things in such an understanding light. I think this is the reason why people have assumed that the "traditional and less effective arts of Japan" are exactly that. BJJ is in the limelight and gives an ill name to ALL Jujutsu styles. They produce too many hothead bullies that are out of control. This is why Classical Jujutsu appears less effective to other stylists. It isn't as blatant and crass as BJJ is. I don't care if BJJ is good for this or that tournament or for this type street fighting or for disarming this type of weapon...that's fine and dandy with me. I care about their attitude(s).

    As said before, most of the people searching out BJJ are not interested in spiritual benefits or deepening their awareness of whatever you want to be aware of, but they are interested in an effective and efficient way to beat the hell out of someone. Now, when we were all just beginning in the MAs, what did all of our senseis/sifus tell us? MA is not for fighting. It is for learning how not to fight. It seems to me that BJJ is seriously lacking some mental discipline in this respect.

    This is my opinion based on my experience with a few BJJ boys who came to visit my roommate in college. I guess I shouldn't make any gerealizations, but if that is the type of people attracted to the style and that is what they are fostering...
    Regards,
    Joel

    Isaiah 6:8

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