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Thread: BJJ vs. JJJ

  1. #31
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    Mr. Simmons,

    I agree with you 100%!

    people who are attracted to BJJ and NHB tend to be hot heads, fighters, drinkers etc... Like you said this is just **MY** experience. I am sure not all are like that, because I am not and I know others who are not.

    But think about it it, someone comes in the Dojo and says they want to learn to fight ASAP. Hmmm.. Why? In my opinion, BJJ is a beutiful technical art, Nihon Jujutsu is beutiful all around, a life long study of depth and richness.

    Anyway, I agree with your experience.

    best,

    -Rick

  2. #32
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

    Default Re: Attitude Adjustment

    Originally posted by hawaiianvw67


    I wanted to share this experience to bring an important point to surface. We have all agreed that BJJ is something different from Judo and Classical Jujutsu, and we all respect what BJJ is. However, BJJ is overly full of people who do not see things in such an understanding light. I think this is the reason why people have assumed that the "traditional and less effective arts of Japan" are exactly that. BJJ is in the limelight and gives an ill name to ALL Jujutsu styles. They produce too many hothead bullies that are out of control. This is why Classical Jujutsu appears less effective to other stylists. It isn't as blatant and crass as BJJ is. I don't care if BJJ is good for this or that tournament or for this type street fighting or for disarming this type of weapon...that's fine and dandy with me. I care about their attitude(s).

    As said before, most of the people searching out BJJ are not interested in spiritual benefits or deepening their awareness of whatever you want to be aware of, but they are interested in an effective and efficient way to beat the hell out of someone. Now, when we were all just beginning in the MAs, what did all of our senseis/sifus tell us? MA is not for fighting. It is for learning how not to fight. It seems to me that BJJ is seriously lacking some mental discipline in this respect.

    This is my opinion based on my experience with a few BJJ boys who came to visit my roommate in college. I guess I shouldn't make any gerealizations, but if that is the type of people attracted to the style and that is what they are fostering...
    Wow, you sure told him!!!

    CLEARLY you do not respect BJJ for "what it is" because you know next to nothing about it.

    I find it laughable that classical martial artists (not just Japanese styles, check out several of the Chinese so-called "battlefield" martial artists too! Chen Taiji and Xing Yi are great for the same attitude) can be so adamant that one cannot understand classical martial arts without an in depth immersion in them (which is true), and yet can pass judgement on an extremely technical and "artful" method like BJJ based on what they see a few times in pro fights and a tense conversation with some of its practitioners.

    If you think martial arts are not for and about fighting, it is no wonder you feel the way you do........it is also pretty clear you don't know much about fighting, either.

    I will not deny that BJJ does attract a lot of rough types, a lot of fighter types, a lot of guys that would probably be out street fighting if they were not in a training hall, practicing a wholesome discipline (and some that still are, unfortunately).

    But BJJ is far closer to what "classical jujutsu" was like around the time that Kano founded Judo than many classical jujutsu dojo are today.

    This is also not the sum total of BJJ practitioners. Ever listen to Rickson Gracie wax philosophical on BJJ? Listening to him, or to Helio Gracie would bring you far closer to understanding the rationale of a FIGHTING family and ryu that understands that it is about being successful in combative situations and taryu jiai FIRST. It is also about having a realistic understanding of what it takes to be successful, over time, in a large number of varied confrontations to have a real understanding of what that success is really based on.

    All else is fluff if that one simple goal cannot be accomplished. The bushi understood this, if they did not, they DIED. The latter day warrior wannabes, the ones from the numerous ryu that history tells us suddenly began to publicly demonstrate only AFTER taryu jiai were banned and they KNEW they would not be tested, only rest on the laurels of the real fighting men that went before.

    Neither of the Gracies I mentioned are anything like the types you mention. Nor are many other people that are highly advanced in the art. Hmmmmm, maybe after training all those years, they DID learn something about self development....they also learned an extremely effective fighting art to boot, one which is far more realistic, and for more practically useful than many traditional arts will ever be in the types of confrontations the average martial artist may get involved in.

    I have trained with many practitioners of classical budo as well as BJJ and submission fighting....the guys I would want with me in an actual street fight would be the BJJ guys....they understand violence in a much more direct and immediate way than the theoretical and utterly sanitized version found in most classical martial arts can ever convey. Sad fact, but true. The BJJ guys have also been the ones with the most realistic understanding of where they actually stand in terms of overall fighting ability as well. Compare that with several of the wannabe classical warriors that post on E-Budo and it is clear that many classical martial arts offer NO such realistic assessment.

    BJJ as practiced on the mats everyday is no more or less about "combat" than any koryu is, in terms of REALITY. There are useful things to be learned in both, but trust me, most people that don't get in potentially armed confrontations for a living will EVER understand this, BJJ practitioner OR classical martial artist. But BJJ will teach you to be far more effective than any classical martial art will in a far shorter period of time.

    This thread might be educational:

    http://www.swordforumbugei.com/ubb/F...ML/000108.html
    Last edited by Kit LeBlanc; 21st February 2002 at 04:13.

  3. #33
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    Aloha Mr. LeBlanc,

    I must disagree with you.

    I do respect BJJ for what it is. I admit I do not have a comprehensive knowledge of the style as I have never studied it. Just as a BJJ person who passes judgment on another style without having any knowledge of it...they should admit that they don't know enough to comment on the effectiveness of any particular art. I'm not trying to say BJJ is not good in respect to how they fight or whatever. I'm just putting my experience with BJJ out there for people to take it for what its worth to them.

    Mr. LeBlanc, lets not start making assumptions about people's knowledge of fighting either. Martial Arts ARE for fighting as you stated. Martial arts are NOT for going out and STARTING fights because you have some sort of inferiority complex or feel emasculated for some hidden reason. You said yourself that most of the people attracted to BJJ are the ones who would be out street fighting if they weren't in the training hall. I propose that very few of these same people are the type who put in the time and dedication to reach the level of understanding that you say some of the Gracies have reached. I'm not saying that classical MA have more dedicated people, I'm just thinking that classical MA attract people who probably look at the training as a lifelong pursuit, rather than a quick way to learn how to pummel someone.

    I agree with you that BJJ is probably as physical as jujutsu was around Kano's time, but I disagree that it is more like classical jujutsu as a WHOLE than classical jujutsu is NOW. Many earlier posts have spoken about how BJJ doesn't address the more subtle principles and techniques that traditional jujutsu still adheres to. BJJ appears to focus highly on the physical development of a person. I've had a statement driven into my head by various sensei, sifu, and kahuna that MA is 90% mental and 10% physical. That is a point where I think BJJ lacks.

    I agree with you on the "fighting family" mentality of the Samurai and the Gracies. However, I think to assess the wholeness of a tradition, we must look at the results of its existence. BJJ as promoted by many Gracie INFLUENCED schools, sow many out of control, violent, and disrespectful people. Who cares how effective they are in a fight. They're not people that other people enjoy being around. Samurai families on the otherhand, knew if you drew your sword first, you would probably die in the fight. Yes, you had to be good at your art or you would die in a fight, but in order to reduce those chances the Samurai tried to create a refined society of people who would not go about blowin' sunshine up everyone else's skirts.

    As to you wanting to have the BJJ guys on your side in a fight, hey...that's what you're comfortable with. I'd rather have someone who doesn't shoot their mouth off. Maybe there wouldn't be a fight then. And if there was, I'd rather have someone who could stay on their feet and handle more than one guy. Or someone who could grab a broomstick and know how to use it in relation to bojutsu or naginatajutsu. Someone with a far broader knowledge of the realities of a fight rather than what is preached in the majority of BJJ training halls. I do not think they understand violence in a more realistic way. That is why they are so prone to it. If a person understood the results of a highly violent conflict...I doubt many people would really want to start a fight with anyone. Not because you might get hurt, but of what you might end up doing to another person. Yes, I would defend myself and family if we were attacked, but afterwards, I would feel horrible for any damage I caused on whoever attacked. That is where classical martial arts are FAR superior to the people of BJJ that I have had experience with. I've never heard Rickson Gracie philosophize, however, it is obviously not getting through to the drones of hotheads who worship him. You say yourself that BJJ will teach a person to be far more effective in a shorter amount of time than any classical art will ever be able to do. I agree. This is why I believe people who have an affinity to violence and just want to beat the snot out of someone are attracted to BJJ. That is not the mentality condoned by any of the Samurai families if that is what you're trying to compare it to. You would probably be killed or ordered to committ seppuku if you were so out of control and rash like the boys I had an encounter with.

    I must also say that "koryu" are more about combat than BJJ. I forget who posted it, maybe it was yourself, but the quote was something to the effect of ..."my first day at a BJJ gym...the instructor said, 'don't fool yourselves, this is only a sport." end quote. If this is how it is viewed by the seniority of the style...how can it be just as much about combat as an art that stems from a warrior society? Classical jujutsu includes a barrage of weapons (at least the tradition I study), combat tactics that can be used not only in one on one fights but in any board game, car chase, whatever you like.

    Well, I feel I am getting out of my element here as I'm starting to make assumptions about BJJ that I have no grounds to make, other than I can tell you what I know my art to be compared to what those BJJ boys I met were not.

    One last thing I'd like to say. Have you ever been to a UFC or NHB event? The people that go to those things are there to see VIOLENCE and watch someone get seriously injured. They don't give a second thought to who it is or how its done. AND, if they don't see it there in the ring, they want to see it in the parking lot. You can just feel the hatred in the air. Who dominates these events? BJJ. Where do these violence saturated people go when they want to learn how to do the things they see? BJJ. Its the same with anyone who has a role model. You like fast cars and racing? You want to be like Michael Schumacher? You go to a racing school that preaches his polciy.

    Like I said before...I don't care about any of the techniques or fighting skill or whatever you want about BJJ. I'm just trying to say that the attitude of this style and the people who are attracted to it is the reason why people THINK classical jujutsu is "weaker." People see BJJ more than they see koryu. As you said, the ones who go public and demonstrate are probably not going to be tested by any other schools (not just in Meiji Japan). There's a guy here on Kaua'i who practices a NHB he calls jujutsu. He'll challenge anyone...on his own mat and by his rules. Several people have challenged him, only to be attacked the second they step inside the dojo...hardly a "challenge." Whether you like it or not these are the people that are making a name for BJJ...whatever name that may be.
    Regards,
    Joel

    Isaiah 6:8

  4. #34
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

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    People think classical jujutsu is weaker because they do not practice realistically, in general. Seems more time is spent debating why Judo and BJJ and kendo have nothing to do with fighting arts. And fooling themselves that it is anything like real fighting. Who has problems with emasculation, then?

    Go roll with a BJJ black belt and then we'll talk about subtlety.

    I'll pretty much just post this link to a thread in the Aikijujutsu section, since I'll end up saying the same things:

    http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/show...?threadid=9898

    Now, I gotta go teach an edged weapons survival class to some fellow officers. People who DO put their lives on the line instead of simply having the luxury of intellectualizing about it.

    I must remember to remind them that the BJJ stuff we have adapted in the curriculum is only sport, won't work for real fighting, and that we would be much better off teaching them to use a broomstick against multiple opponents.

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    Aloha Mr. LeBlanc,

    Really, is this the place to make assumptions about my so-called lifestyle of intellectualizing compared to the service of police officers? I don't think it is.

    To me, it seems that we're arguing about two completely different topics. I'm trying to make a point about the attitude of the people who practice BJJ. You have very good points about the effectiveness of the art. I respect that. You've trained in it and know a hell of a lot more about the techniques than I do. However, I would still like to know your opinion about the attitudes of BJJ practitioners.

    As far as subtlety goes...the previous link you included in your previous post states some explanations of BJJ derived manuevers that are useful in police situations. I believe one of these includes gouguing someone in the back of the neck with your knee as you handcuff them. It may be me but I find a lack of subtlety in that explanation. Maybe you decided not to include it, but if there were some discussion of the particular nerve, pressure, or joints that could be manipulated with that manuever then that would display somewhat more subtlety to me than just brute force. Maybe my definition of subtlety is different than yours???

    I don't think most people in the classical arts feel that they have to argue about Judo, Kendo and BJJ because they feel emasculated. I think it has more to do with trying to dispell the notions of ineffectiveness that are widely preached by naysayers from other styles. People who have the need to physically dominate someone else in a violent, hurtful way are the ones who have inferiority complexes. Go look at a schoolyard playground. I'm sorry but I see the same schoolyard bullies in the BJJ boys I had a conversation with.

    As for your link to the Aiki discussion...I agree with the vast majority of what you posted. I really don't think you and I have a disagreement on what works/fails or on the realities of a fight. Am I wrong?
    Regards,
    Joel

    Isaiah 6:8

  6. #36
    MarkF Guest

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    Originally posted by hawaiianvw67
    I don't think most people in the classical arts feel that they have to argue about Judo, Kendo and BJJ because they feel emasculated. I think it has more to do with trying to dispell the notions of ineffectiveness that are widely preached by naysayers from other styles. People who have the need to physically dominate someone else in a violent, hurtful way are the ones who have inferiority complexes. Go look at a schoolyard playground. I'm sorry but I see the same schoolyard bullies in the BJJ boys I had a conversation with.


    Even though you are right, you are wrong. Dispelling the myth that judo and/or BJJ are ineffective because they are considered sports and sports only has been going on since I've been invovled in judo, a comparative grappling art such as jujutsu or Gracie jiu-jitsu (since 1963). These days I try to ignore that argument, but only a couple of weeks ago in the Koryu section here, I read comments concerning judo (since I can't recall it specifically let's just say it was a negative statement concerning judo's effectiveness in saving one's a$$ in a "combative situation"). When I attempted to correct the mistatements, I was referred to as "the judo police (I asked if it were similar to a "koryu kop.)"

    The nay sayers of koryu grappling are as irritating as the nay-sayers of judo/bjj. Waxing poetic about your experiences with BJJ on the words of a few is the same as the kata v. randori argument and which prepares one for the real thing, and when it gets down to basics, that is what it is. Which is the one which prepares a person for the modern combative arena? Probably both, and most probably the one in which you have the most experience.

    Contests such as NHB most surely took place in the day of the samurai just as sure as I'm typing this. This too, is explained away as "not being the primary goal." The differences were most probably to work on battlefield technique as the modern forms are for the same reasons. The landscape has changed some, but when you get down to it, it is for the same reasons. The reason so many can't tell the difference between styles or schools is fairly obvious. Contests. Steal from the winner and stop losing. It still goes on, it is just done on the Internet these days.

    There were bullies around then, too. Today's bullies don't all reside in a single manner of fighting/grappling schools, some are right under our noses.

    Mark

  7. #37

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    OK, I'm probably not at all qualified to enter this thread, but I would like to comment on some of the issues that Joel raised about attitudes and morality in BJJ vs JJJ.

    The big problem is really that we are all living a paradox. We are all studying violence in a society that (mostly) abhors violence. This places all MA practitioners in a moral dilemma, and how we deal with it depends on each individual. Most will realise that the skills learnt in the dojo will probably never get used in reality and will do everything they can to avoid violent confrontation.

    Others, unfortunately, will seek out any opportunity to put their skills to the test and will become aggressive bullies. This is entirely regardless of the art they study. It applies equally to BJJ, Judo, Karate and for all I know, Taijiquan. (Read "Angry White Pyjamas" for an account of a group of high-ranked aikidoka getting involved in a bar brawl)

    The BJJ-ka that Joel referred to would have had exactly the same attitude whichever style he studied, IMHO. Cliche-mode on: It's not the style, it's the person.

    On the subject of the UFC: I love watching it. I like to think I watch it for the skill, bravery, athleticism and grace. I hate it when fighters get injured - but still, a part of me does get a thrill out of the danger. I do object to some of the marketing of the UFC (the videos available in the UK are particularly bad: "the bloodiest sport in the world", "modern gladiators", etc.). And of course some of the audience will watch out of pure bloodlust.

    But the same applies to boxing too. Does this make everyone who steps into a boxing gym an imbalanced psychotic?

    We have to be honest with ourselves: we are learning to fight. Along the way we will meet people who enjoy violence. Sad but unavoidable.

    Cheers,

    Mike
    (sorry for the ramble)

  8. #38
    MarkF Guest

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    Mike,
    Don't worry about the rambling. I'm an expert. I just wish I had read yours before writing mine. I wouldn't have had to write it.

    But you are correct, sir! Thanks for making it so easy.

    Mark

  9. #39
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    Hi to you all,
    Great discussion! Although pressed for time I would like to donate my two cents.

    In my opinion jujutsu (which is a general term) suffers from a lack of identity. True there is TJJ, JJJ, BJJ. These are all terms or subdivisions used to clearify things. There is a difference between these subdivisions, but why don’t we look at the things these systems share with each other?
    Technically there’s no big difference (you find the same techniques, more or less within all these systems). There’s a difference in training methods.

    There’s also a difference between practitioners. Why do you train? Why learn a martial art? Do you want to learn to defend yourself or do you want to learn to fight? There’s a big difference. Is is jobrelated or not?
    In my experience, most koryu practitioners I have met were not the greatest fighters they don’t have to be, they are as I am civilian. We are not supposed to fight. They practice the arts as a hobby not to use in their line of work. Technically they reach a certain level, yes they do, they become quite good. It doesn’t mean they can fight. Why certain things can’t be learned they have to be experienced. You have to be in danger to experience certain aspects of the fighters trade. So they, and I never become professional fighters. We will always be limited that way. Than comes the question what do we need as selfdefense as civilians in a reasonable safe environment (or so it seems). We need systems where we can train in a
    But you never are in danger when training! Well yes and no. In koryu jujutsu you train in a controlled environment for an uncontrolled environment. In modern jujutsu you train in a controlled environment for an uncontrolled environment (what’s the difference?). But it’s just training.
    Agressiveness, what is more aggressive? Hitting someone on the body with your fists, heavily and repeatedly or learning (without contact) to slash someone’s throat without a lot of display. A lot of people I know (maybe I’m seeing the wrong kind of people) would opt for the heavy hitting.

    It’s may seem an easy way out but that is not how I mean it. Train in both ways. Learn koryu jujutsu and brazilian jujutsu. Find what’s useful for you and don’t forget, that if you are not a professional using the arts in your line of work you are just approaching the essence of the arts.

    This will cost me my ears for sure.

    Best regards,

    Johan Smits

  10. #40
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

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    Joel,

    It's good fencing with you, this is stimulating a lot of good discussion.

    RE: BJJ practitioners. I train with a regular group (more submission grappling, not pure BJJ) but have trained with purely BJJ guys and instructors.

    My opinions? The BJJ guys are much better to train with, in general. They have a much more realistic assessment of what they are doing and how it relates to real fighting/sport, they are constantly reminded of their level of ability and what they are capable of, and have nothing to prove. The most honest, in all areas, training partners and sessions I have had were in BJJ.

    It appears the traditionalists are those that have something to prove. Go to BBs on Japanese, Chinese, and many other "fighting arts" and you are treated to endless BJJ bashing, how it doesn't work for this, isn't good for that, why it isn't really fighting. Then why are the traditionalists constantly losing when going against them? BJJ considers it to be the utmost in bad logic to assume that if they cannot defeat a man in a fight with many, but granted not all rules removed, that if you remove the rules even more, the man who was soundly defeated will then be able to turn the tables and come out on top. Give them both knives, or okay, broomsticks, and I would still bet the BJJ man. Arguing who would win a sword duel is childish....


    The BJJ guys are training against fully resisting partners and making their techniques work, they are getting into street fights and self defense situations and doing the same. They are also watching their aging teachers, 5'8 and 165 lbs, spar with the entire attendance of a seminar, fully resistant, and defeat them all subtley, fluidly and technically, regardless of size or age difference.

    They hear only talk about how devastating the traditionalists are, that they can't spar at all because it is too dangerous, and how what the traditionalists do is much more about real fighting than actually grappling full contact is. They watch the traditionalists being taken down, trying a lame pressure point technique (we call them titty twisters ) that the traditionalist doesn't know won't work because he has never tried it against a truly resisting opponent, and they watch him struggling on the bottom, unable to mount even a token defense, and clearly not knowing what to do on the ground. When he is allowed up he makes some ridiculous statement about how his art is meant more for dealing with multiple opponents. And the BJJ'er thinks "multiple opponents? You couldn't even handle ONE guy two inches shorter and 30 lbs lighter...?"

    I think this has a lot to do with the fact that full contact training is engaged in ..they get their asses beat on a regular basis and that is a humbling experience that it is obvious many traditionalists never get the benefit of. There is no arguing "shoulda, coulda, woulda's" when you are pinned to the floor, submitted repeatedly, or placed in such a position that the man on top of you can strike you with impunity, and hold a conversation with those on the sidelines while you struggle unsuccessfully to extricate yourself. If he can do this he can just as easily pull a knife and begin surgery when you can't even mount a defense.

    They also train FAR harder than in any martial art I have personally experienced except Judo. You also quickly learn in a BJJ club that the 5'2 140 lb guy may just wipe the mats with the 6'4 230 lb guy, in a very decisive, full contact and resistive manner, and this tends to make people much more respectful of the PROVEN ability of others.

    I think your encounter with the BJJ-ers would have gone differently with the BJJ guys if you had started with more of an open mind and realized there are many things useful in BJJ and that it doesn't "only work in the UFC." You said you agree with my posts on the other threads, so this must be true.

    Them too. I think all that would have taken would have been mentioning that in a real fight , in earnest, you would rather use a stick or a knife to hit someone with and only go to grappling if you had to...but that you would be glad to have it to fall back on. The conversation would have been totally different then. And in reality that is the best way.

    Bad aspects: these are not choir boys. They have a lot of tattoos, they are loud, many have been arrested before or come from less than stellar backgrounds. I train with a guy who is open about the fact that he hates cops in general. Two of us at the dojo are cops and he has no problem with us. Why? The training goes beyond that.

    Have you ever spent any time with any Special Forces, Navy Seals, or serious tactical operators? There is a lot more of the BJJ practitioner in them than the (present day) koryu practitioner, despite what all the articles say about the "warrior brotherhood" of the classical arts.

    Remember, too, the professional fight biz is a different thing entirely and draws out aspects that are sensational on purpose. For some the attitude is just a show. Talk to them one on one and they are different people altogether. Plus I have personally witnessed and heard from classical MA instructors FAR too much about psychologically unbalanced, bizarre passive aggressive behaviors, and downright backstabbing, dirty dealing and lying and cheating that has happened in koryu organizations or within traditional dojo to entertain the notion that training in classical martial arts has any effect on a person's character if that person does not care to embrace the character lessons.

    Don't get me wrong, I still seek out a traditional/classical art. I think that the two in combination is really the way to go. Because the classical arts are more than just about physical fighting, and DO provide a way into a much deeper study in the way of life of the armed professional, for the present time or the past. I don't think most people doing koryu, despite the many authoritative opinions offered on it, have any inkling of that beyond an intellectual/historical one or pure fanstasy, because by and large they are not armed professionals. The legit combat vets are different, and those are really the people I look up to. Their warrior illusions were long ago dispelled and they see the inherent vulnerability, NOT invulnerability, that training for and walking on that edge represent. Many classical martial artists seem to have this backwards, and their concept of using martial arts in the real world is evidence of this. Again, the BJJ guys I have trained with have none of that. But granted, many do not view it as a professional Path, but more about self defense and recreation and, perish the thought, SPORT. The same holds for the traditionalists, minus the sport, and of course any realistic assessment of what it is they actually are training, however.


    You argue that my approach is not subtle. Guilty as charged. I am usually more concerned about what weapons the guy might have, if he might have some help and this is an ambush, or if he really wants to take my gun and murder me with it or is just lashing out to make his bid to escape than being subtle. More the "martial" than the "art." Usually the real world confrontation in earnest is not subtle, unlike in the idealized world of the dojo where all the pressure points work (they don't in real life), all the locks stop fights (ditto) and ki controls his mind and body. **

    Then again, I have been in many altercations, with mentally ill individuals, escaping felons, you name it, and taken them down, pinned them with knee in their neck, and wrapped 'em up and brought them to jail without any injury to myself or to them. Still wasn't subtle, but it very much worked.

    BJJ has given me the tools to have far more control, and guage much better damage I do to a combative subject, than learning pins which I have never tried against legitimate resistance, or how to smash his head or cut his throat ever has.


    ** It should be understood that the comments RE: using the knife, striking the back of a subjects head repeatedly with the elbow, etc. which I posted on the other threads were dealing with MILITARY combat. and how groundfighting would apply, NOT everyday arrests of even highly resistive suspects that are NOT rising to the level of tactics involving lethal force/serious body injury. If a suspect raises to the level of lethal force, the tactics for military and police can very much be the same.

    While it is not always easy to be able, under the stress of the moment, to know when a non-lethal assault may turn lethal, or go back down to non-lethal (which is what makes police combatives more difficult than military kill-or-be-killed), what I described is not appropriate in the majority of incidents involving combative suspects.
    Last edited by Kit LeBlanc; 21st February 2002 at 18:03.

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  12. #41
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    Default Classical Jujutsu without freestyle aint classical anyway

    The genius of judo (continued in offshoots like sambo, BJJ, etc.) is the ability to chain and link techniques. "Modern classical jujutsu," having lost the randori component, lacks the wherewithal to foster this. There is no doubt that sets of kata that focus on use of a weapon while pinning and stabbing are more directly applicable to close combat with edged weapons than judo (et al), as far as the techniques go. BUT - speaking as a practitioner of classical methods who has also studied some level of judo (not enough, sadly) - without a randori component, which most "modern classical jujutsu" now lacks, the classicist is not prepared for the wiggling, thrashing chaos that is, so I am told, real combat - not fights - combat to the death. A combat veteran discusses this in the Winter, 2002 issue of Hoplite, where he describes, among other things, stabbing himself in the process of killing an enemy.

    Kano's genius, in "eliminating the dangerous techniques," as the cliche goes, was to make a method of training that allows one to really chain techniques and go all out. Variants, such as sambo, and BJJ strive to set up different parameters (called rules) which hopefully bring the training closer (one aspect) of the real thing. There is no doubt that when koryu was "genryu" ("now ryu"), they sparred. The methods were crude. These days, people in both police and separately, in military circles, are trying to make training methods which develop the fluidity and responsiveness needed - with the weapons and clothing etc. required. Judo/BJJ and koryu conceivably both offer components for this - the components in neither would be sufficient alone. One way to think of it is kata is the letters on the page - randori is the 'white' - the spaces between the letters. A good combative system must have both. I believe that a genuine koryu system - at least as far as grappling goes - must have a randori component (or the randori practiced elsewhere - sumo, judo, BJJ, etc), or it gets dessicated.

    One thing that proved this to me. One line of Yagyu Shingan Ryu was headed by the estimable Muto Maso, and seconded by Fujisada ???. I think Muto got the leadership role, among other things, because he was a few days senior. Muto was a very good weapons man, as was Fujisada. YSR has a strong grappling section, dealing with kumiuchi - "battlefield" grappling. There was no doubt that Fujisada was several major levels above Muto in this area and, also, any area of the ryu that had close contact, with weapons or without. The difference? Muto was a koryu man, exclusively. Fujisada a sixth dan in judo, very old school judo (I became friendly with him, and very much regret family and work responsibilities did not allow me to train judo with him.)

    There was, BTW, a criticism of an example Kit made, of kneeling on the neck. The writer said, "I believe one of these includes gouguing someone in the back of the neck with your knee as you handcuff them. It may be me but I find a lack of subtlety in that explanation. Maybe you decided not to include it, but if there were some discussion of the particular nerve, pressure, or joints that could be manipulated with that manuever then that would display somewhat more subtlety to me than just brute force. Maybe my definition of subtlety is different than yours???" First of all, the SUBTLETY would be getting a struggling, aggressive, maybe drug-intoxicated or berserk individual on his stomach so you could "get" a knee on the neck!! And it's far kinder to put on a decisive technique to immobilize someone rather than a half-assed one that allows them to continue the fight, perhaps necessitating a less "subtle" and more damaging level of force.
    More generally, my system of koryu grappling has kyusho - nerve, pressure points, etc. In fact, the proper attack to the neck IS a knee or elbow.
    I've probably told this story before, but what the heck. Fooling around, I told a judo instructor friend of mine in Japan that, due to my koryu skill, I was unstranglible. He, of course, challenged me. I lay on my back and he put a cross-collar on me. I can take a good strangle for a few moments, and I used forceful pressure on points in his rib cage with my knuckles, and he shot over my head in agony (note this is a form of hypnosis - I set up conditions whereby, as will be seen, he 'forgot' what he could do). He was majorly upset. I was laughing - Kirin beer fuels such whimsey - and I said, "O.K. Let's do it again. You're pissed, right? So let's imagine I just raped your sister. C'mon, bro, get into it. Imagine my judo-defeating hairy gaijin self on your sister. Strangle me again!" See, I really wanted to see if this kyusho pressure stuff worked under real conditions! He jumps on me, slams the cross-choke home, I'm resisting all my might, and I'm already starting to go out. Put on the pressure points hard - NOTHING! Spread my arms wide, knuckles out, and with all my might, slammed them home, right in the prescribed points. (He had bruises for weeks, and I might have slightly cracked his cartilage at one point). Next thing I remember is the revival. We both started laughing and poured another. The point being that a) pressure points, as most people conceive of them, are really are not combative moves they go with the Klingon Death touch. b) the proof of this only comes up in free-style, which includes what happens to the body when you are enraged, and totally committed, and don't care about pain.

    BTW - the other side of the equation is that a REAL kata encodes what actually happens/happened to someone in the heat of battle - passed down as a training method to those of us who, in addition to needing the training, don't have the real life experience. It's got incredible depth of info - but it dries up if the practitioner is dried up - which is what happens if kata is ALL you do.

    As for the attitude thing - one writer complained about the "attitude" of a couple of BJJ guys. Generally, I've found more comfort and trust among men who actually measure themselves - boxers, kick boxers, grapplers - than in the more sterile arts. I recall, in Japan at least, far more incidents severe enough to make the newspaper among Shorinji Kempo and aikido folks than from kick boxing or NHB-type gyms. Gotta watch out for those idealists!

    With respect

    Ellis Amdur

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  14. #42
    Zoyashi Guest

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    Hello All,
    As a long-time karate practicioner who has turned into an avid Jujutsuka, I can say that there is a hard edge of reality that drives a lot of the bozo "We're number 1!" boasts found within the jujitsu community. Not to say that it isn't obnoxious, because it definately is. But it probably stems from the fact that ground fighting is traditionally ignored and denigrated by the karate-kung fu community, and it really, really shouldn't be. My dojo is in a rough part of town and a lot of people come through the door looking to prove themselves. A lot have had some form of martial training - boxing, TKD, karate. And they all get schooled. They may have a great punch or a blinding kick, but the one-punch kill is a myth, and after they've landed their one hit, they're toast. I know. I was one of them.
    Yes, it's obnoxious when some thick-necked meat-head tells you you're wasting your time with stand up fighting. And he's wrong. Budo is never a waste of time. But keep in mind he's probably seen five hundred stand up fighters assume it couldn't happen to them, then end up tapping flat on their backs ten seconds later. If he could re-phrase his statement as "Ground fighting is an enormously important part of one-on one combat and and every style should address it's advantages and limitations," well, wouldn't that be something we could all agree on?

    Josh Gepner

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    Default open minded here

    Aloha all,

    Well...I must say that this has been a very enlightening conversation. Congratulate yourselves in the fact that I'm considering going down to (whichever Gracie it is here in Honolulu) the BJJ gym and seeing what they're all about.

    I admit, I was probably just as inconsiderate in my conversation with those BJJ boys. However, I think most people would react in the same manner.

    Since many of you have insisted on the fact that BJJ is much more realistic in the sense of training, could either of you give me an example of another art form that addresses this? Ummm...let me clarify. Another art form that embraces another aspect of fighting besides almost exclusively on groundwork. Ex: kempo? kajukenbo?

    I enjoy the koryu I train in because of the mental aspects of it, but I guess in this discussion I have realized that maybe there is something more physical that could be added to it. I guess what I'm saying is that I want to find THE art for me...so I can just train...and forget about any stupid arguments about effectiveness or the validity of the style. Okay...I'm rambling now.
    Regards,
    Joel

    Isaiah 6:8

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    Aloha again,

    I guess the reason I don't like those BJJ guys is the attitude. Some of you say that they are actually more humble than they appear due to getting pounded in the gym. Well...you think they could show it outside the dojo as well.

    mahalos,
    Joel Simmons

  17. #45
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

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    Joel,

    You have my admiration. Not too many people can take a step back and take a second look at things.

    By all means check out the BJJ. Other arts that don't emphasize groundwork but give similar benefits would be Judo (you still get some of the groundwork here), Muay Thai, some of the Kyokushin and derivative karate styles like Enshin or Ashihara...but for real world application and for an excellent art to blend with your jo (you are a member of Shindo Muso-ryu, correct?) I would go with Judo, probably. RESISTIVE grappling at least.. Training in jo will give you the eyes to see what can be made to fit in with more combative forms, and what is probably better left on the training mat, as well as what from the jo would probably work in a real knock-down drag-out and what is wishful thinking.

    Happy Trails.

    Kit

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