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Thread: BJJ vs. JJJ

  1. #46
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    Aloha Kit,

    I actually train in Takeuchi-ryu. Not necessarily a "jujutsu" but they call it that because its easier for people to recognize that name.

    I was thinking about some of the Kyokushinkai schools. There's supposedly a really good sensei here in town, Bobby Lowe, ever heard of him? My Takeuchi sensei knows that I still want to develop my karate skills and he actually reccommended the kyokushin guys. Judo is big down here as well. My sensei is also a dan holder (don't know which dan) in Judo. Needless to say, he likes Judo as well.

    I honestly think I chose to train in Takeuchi-ryu because the dojo is walking distance from my house, doesn't charge through the roof fees, the sensei is smart and very personable. Plus, I just have a respect for people who hold to tradition for some reason. At least in MA.

    The BJJ here in town is taught by Relson Gracie. Just FYI.
    Regards,
    Joel

    Isaiah 6:8

  2. #47
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

    Default

    You must train with Wayne Muromoto.

    Check out the Tantojutsu thread in the Sword Arts section, I think. He had some interesting things to share there. I have seen a very little of Takeuchi-ryu and only on video, a couple of the knife/grappling moves looked really interesting. Add some resistive trainng experience with Judo, BJJ and/or Kyokushin and that would be an excellent combination for real fighting, I think.

    Actually there are a couple guys in my area that studied some with Relson in Honolulu...nothing long term though.

  3. #48
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Hi Guys

    Joel, I don't know the guys you know, but are you sure your not equating confidance with arrogance? There is a distinct difference and most people have trouble differentiating twixt the two.
    I have met many NHB, BJJ and Judo types who have little regard for martial artists abilities in general-since most of what they do doesn't work in a direct confrontation with a fighter (their own little neck of the woods). Of course fighting a fighter is a rather narrow scope of business. But all in all, if you were one of them and you pretty much had little trouble taking MA apart- why Listen to what they say anymore? Fair is fair.
    Its tough when what you do is considered "just" a sport-and what the guy that you just threw and choked out does is supposed to be "ooh so deadly."
    It makes a boy go Hhmmmm...... And they do just that.

    Of course I can change hats and argue the other side of this to my hearts content- I offer this in hopes that it contributes to a better understanding of where some people are coming from.
    Most arts have some interesting potentials. But it depends on who's hands it's in- like most everything else.
    I say do it all.


    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 22nd February 2002 at 02:23.

  4. #49
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    Aloha everyone,

    Yes, Kit, I do train with Wayne Muromoto.

    I went and watched Sensei Bobby Lowe's Kyokushin class tonight. His dojo is right down the street from my apartment.

    I was impressed with the physical exertion those guys go through. They sure as hell don't play grab ass with each other. However, one thing I noticed is that Sensei Lowe and many of the senior students who were only in their mid 30's had horrible knee problems. When they were trying to execute mid to high level kicks, the would wince in pain. Many of the kicks were "top of the foot" strikes. One shodan had his toes taped up as if his tendons were "worn out." ??? Even so, I thought it was impressive how they trained.

    Another thing I noticed was their technique when sparring. Only 3 or 4 kicks and 1 or 2 punches were utilized in pummelling the hell out of the other person. From my perspective, there were many opportunities for them to execute a throw or joint lock...but they never capitalized on the opening. Maybe I'm inadvertantly looking for criticisms. That's why I'm going to go to another class to watch. Maybe I'll see it in a different light on Monday.

    As for the confidence/arrogence thing with those other guys at the dorm room...I agree that there is a big difference between the two. When someone comes to me and thinks they are better than ANY other style just because they practice a certain style, and they don't have ANY experience with the style they are criticizing...that is arrogance. Although I guess you can be confident and arrogent at the same time. If he were to say to me, "oh I've seen karate" or "i've trained with friends who practice karate, and I feel my way of fighting is better" then I would have to respect his opinions and experiences. I would call that confidence in his own abilities. Of course, now that I reflect on it, I was probably just as arrogant as he was from his perspective. I didn't have any experience with BJJ other than seeing UFC fights and exchanging words with these guys. But I strongly believe the attitude of practitioners reflects the core of any art.

    That's just my opinion on it though.
    Regards,
    Joel

    Isaiah 6:8

  5. #50
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    Dear all,

    when judging the "attitude" of the practioner, please consider the AGE of the practioner... Teenage and 20 something boys and men who engage in full resistence training and competition tend to act a bit agressive and stupid (Not all of course {PC mode off})

    Find some people in their 30's and see the difference, also "gracie" jiujitsu" is not the ONLY type of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, sometimes the "family" might have something to do with the attitude.

    If in Honolulu, PLEASE check out Egan Inoue for BJJ! If you do, you will see GREAT skill and GREAT person. Also Check Burton Richardson in Honolulu JKD Unlimited, one of the most beautiful people I know of, GREAT martial artist and BJJ for street defense, not competition. Tell him Rick Ray sent you.

    If you vist these people, I promise you will have a great experience!

    Best wishes,

    -Rick

  6. #51
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

    Default Try Muay Thai

    Joel,

    If you can find Muay Thai try to see it as well. They have the hard hitting aspects of Kyokushin but tend to be far more relaxed and fluid, at least what I have seen, and particularly the Thai's themselves. The Thai's also have turned knees and elbows into an art form. They should do some Muay Thai at Burton Richardson's AND Egan Inoue's mentioned above. (Though Burton Richardson should also have a weapon's awareness and focus that would go hand in hand with Takeuchi-ryu..stick and blade stuff.)

    Also, I don't think of pure striking as necessarily the best way to deal with an actual combative situation. Real fights are not like kickboxing, just as they are not like pure sport BJJ, or pure kata jujutsu....there is a place in there, where, correctly applied, the classical jujutsu stuff will come into it's own when forged alongside contact striking and grappling training.

    You said you noticed a lot of openings for locks and throws? The kicks and strikes may open up the locks and throws for you if you integrate the tactics.

    If you end the confrontation with a solid kick or elbow, why grapple at all?

  7. #52
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    Hey Kit,

    How is it that you get to post so many times? I figured that you should be out arresting someone or training. You must have the coolest job in the world. You get to have your cake and eat it too. I'm jealous.

    You've been the voice of reason in many of the post I've seen. Keep it up. I really enjoy reading your post.

  8. #53
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

    Default LOL!!

    Meynard,

    I am in the enviable position of having to work only 15 or so days a month. Our contract negotiators are just awesome!

    Get this....often several of those days are training days where I either do defensive tactics, or SWAT.

    Ain't life grand!


  9. #54
    Guest

    Default Re: Try Muay Thai

    Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc
    Joel,

    If you can find Muay Thai try to see it as well. They have the hard hitting aspects of Kyokushin but tend to be far more relaxed and fluid, at least what I have seen, and particularly the Thai's themselves. The Thai's also have turned knees and elbows into an art form. They should do some Muay Thai at Burton Richardson's AND Egan Inoue's mentioned above. (Though Burton Richardson should also have a weapon's awareness and focus that would go hand in hand with Takeuchi-ryu..stick and blade stuff.)

    Hello,

    Burton is a full Instructor under Chai Sirasute, his list of full instructor credentials are pretty long. Also his weapon program, stick and knife fighting, is outta sight! EVERYTHING is based on sparring, meaning get a stickor knife, head gear, hand protection, cup and thats how we train. Even drills are done with resistence. He threw out most of the fancy kali he used to do because it never came out in actual fighting. Same with his unarmed stuff, he is a full instructor in Pentjak silat, Jun Fan JKD, Muay Thai, Kali of many styles from many teachers, has boxing training, about 12 years of BJJ and just about everything in between.

    What we are left with, is what He termed JKD unlimited, and most of the stuff he learned he tossed out, again because it didn't come out when someone was really fighting back!

    Burt is a great guy, meet him and you'll see. A fantastic teacher with zero ego! (see for yourself) and I KNOW you will come away with a whole new outlook on the martial arts as far as combat is concerend.

    best wishes,

    -Rick

    PS. I should note, we spar eye shots, groin shots, all the x-rated techniques. We have developed equipment to allow this while maintaining safety, while we use NHB "type" of training, it is beyong the "sport" it is about real life encounters, but most of all, searching for truth and becoming a better person.

  10. #55
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    Kit,

    It doesn't get any better than that!!! Holly...

    You do have the coolest job in the world! I'm going to start planning for a career change.

  11. #56
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

    Default Re: Re: Try Muay Thai

    Originally posted by RickRay


    He threw out most of the fancy kali he used to do because it never came out in actual fighting. Same with his unarmed stuff...

    -Rick

    PS. I should note, we spar eye shots, groin shots, all the x-rated techniques.

    Cool, it's the clicky-clacky "kung fu theatre" stuff that has always turned me off on Kali. We have a guy that did Latosa Escrima and that stuff is cool, very direct and powerful. but I don't think they spar.

    X rated techniques LOL, I gotta use that one. Whatta ya wear goggles or fencing masks like the Dog Brothers? Those boxing outside groin protectors?

  12. #57
    Guest

    Default Re: Re: Re: Try Muay Thai

    Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc


    Cool, it's the clicky-clacky "kung fu theatre" stuff that has always turned me off on Kali. We have a guy that did Latosa Escrima and that stuff is cool, very direct and powerful. but I don't think they spar.
    Hi,

    Yeah, burt's system is very simple technique wise, but then we apply the five ways of attack from JKD and other strategy etc.. It's all about performance...


    X rated techniques LOL, I gotta use that one. Whatta ya wear goggles or fencing masks like the Dog Brothers? Those boxing outside groin protectors?
    LOL! Yeah JKD term for the nasty stuff ( I know you knew that )

    When we stick or knife spar, we use padded sticks, which is basically a Kali stick with pipe insulation and tape etc... We wear Macho face cage head gear, or if we are turning up the heat we use Stick sparring head gear for the P.I. much like Kendo head gear.

    For hands we use Hocky gloves to keep our finger nails on regular cup, mouthpiece and that's it! We hit pretty hard most of the time, and all out hard about once a month, we stay safe. There is really no need to use heavy sticks hard strikes and light gear, what IS important is resistence, meaning the partner is fighting back.

    The whole system is based on High percentage moves, meaning those techniques most people can get most of the time when someone is fully fighting back. Being so bare bones tecnique wise, it is like a mirror, your diet, conditioning, ego, how much you practice your fears all that is laid out in the open, again only performance....

    I really do feel the process makes better people. As an aside, bringing it back to topic, I notice all the time, the punks drop out. It appears they don't care much for hard work or getting hit back

    Best,

    -Rick

  13. #58
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    Aloha everyone,

    Thanks for the information about Burton Richardson and Egan Inoue. I've heard of Egan before. One of my friends at UH used to train with the guy. This kid was on the swim team and his coaches didn't want him training with Egan...I guess they were right in their concern...my buddy came back from training one day with the entire left side of his face turned black and blue. Apparently Egan introduced him to his right foot.

    By the way, where did your friend Burton learn his JKD/Jun Fan? I thought most of the people that trained with Bruce Lee or his immediate students have been pretty reserved about training people.

    Also, I don't know a thing about Muay Thai except for what I see on ESPN every now and then. Who is Chai Sirasute?

    Kit - I want a job like yours. I'm cursing the day when I finally have to get a real job...instead of being a professional student.
    Regards,
    Joel

    Isaiah 6:8

  14. #59
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    Originally posted by hawaiianvw67
    Aloha everyone,


    By the way, where did your friend Burton learn his JKD/Jun Fan? I thought most of the people that trained with Bruce Lee or his immediate students have been pretty reserved about training people.
    Burton studied with Sifu Dan Inosanto, the man Bruce left in charge of JKD. He has been training with him since 1980. Burton has about 20 videos on the market, about 10 of them for unique publications, he also writes for inside kung Fu and has since the mid 80's.

    Also, I don't know a thing about Muay Thai except for what I see on ESPN every now and then. Who is Chai Sirasute?


    Ajarn Chai is one of the very first men to bring the art to the USA

    Best,

    -Rick

  15. #60
    jerry davis Guest

    Default bjj vs. jjj

    Seems like this thread has just about run the gauntlet. I can't see that anything at all was decided which is pretty typical of martial arts these days. I waded through this whole thread and all I see are people who think the world revolves around their particular "vision" of the martial arts. Well, it doesn't. Everyone has there reasons for doing things and, if they are happy and not hurting anyone else, their views should be respected. My observations: Where are the actual Japanese and Brazilians who could actually address these issues, rather than marginal people who just talk around and around them? Obviously, JJJ, by BJJ's own admission, is the root; everything else, no matter how far it has diverged, is a branch. Second, "classical" or "traditional" martial arts are only the sum total of the knowledge of the existing practitioners, not an absolute carried down through history unchanged from some original master or masters. Everyone remembers differently and adapts to their own circumstances. Another thing, in case nobody noticed it, the world is basically at "peace" right now. We are in a "-do" mode, not a "-jitsu" mode. Whether you are a cop working the street or fighting in an octagon, it isn't the same as living in a world at war. Nowadays, martial arts are mostly for entertainment. And entertainment has to be entertaining, not boring. BJJ and the other MMA were getting boring for a while, then they adapted and now they are entertaining again. But they aren't "real" in the "war" sense of killing the enemy on sight. None of the martial arts are "real" in that sense the way they are practiced today. We don't do that because we don't have to. The way I see it, it's good to have a strong foundation in specific concepts that are practical and functional, but, when it comes down to it, you use whatever works, not sit around and nitpick about what style does what. And what works is never a constant, because no situation is ever a constant. And we don't really experience that many situations these days anyway, otherwise there wouldn't be hardly anybody left to post here, and the rest would be too busy to worry about it. There's my opinion. Regards to all.

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