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Thread: BJJ vs. JJJ

  1. #61

    Default ttt!

    What Jerry said!

    Jerry, every MA website should be forced to have that post as an opening page - nice job.

    Cheers,

    Mike

  2. #62
    Ben Reinhardt Guest

    Default

    Originally posted by Ruediger
    Hi all,

    i am not sure, but wasn't the Fusen Ryu the source for the judo groundwork...??

    regards

    Ruediger Meier
    Well, nobody really knows for sure the origin of Fusen Ryu. Supposedly, the Kodokan lost one or more matches to the Fusen Ryu, due to the Fusen Ryu's strategy of engaging only in groundwork. The date of said contest is supposedly around 1900. The Kodokan had a groundwork syllabus before that time, so I doubt that Fusen Ryu is the source of Judo katame waza. Tenshin Shin'yo Ryu also had katame waza, and I'd think it is a more likely source for much of Judo katame waza.

    Regards,

    Ben Reinhardt

  3. #63
    Ben Reinhardt Guest

    Default

    Originally posted by MarkF
    To answer the question of grappling of judo and Fusen ryu, you are correct, but only so far. The grappling of judo does come from kito ryu, with a little of everything which Kano could get his hands on. "

    Mark, you are going to hate me for this, but you are wrong. I'm sure that it's just because you wrote this off the top of your head.

    Kodokan Judo, 1986 version, Chapter 9 of the paper back published in 1994, "Atemi Waza":
    "While the throwing tecniques of Kodokan judo are based on those of the Kito School, striking techniques are, like the grappling techniques, derived from those of the Tenshi Shin'yo School."

    Mark Wrote:"One thing which completes the picture of judo ne waza, is that western freestyle was also included, but not until a later date when Kano was given a demonstration of it."

    Mark, I've always heard this but never seen any documentation of it in any of Kano Sensei's writings I've read (admitedly limited to English !). Personally, I seriously doubt there is any if much truth to it. I'll keep an open mind, though.

    snip...
    MarkF wrote:"BTW: Yes, it does say in Kodokan judo that nage waza and ne waza is taken from kitoryu, and atemi from tenjin shinyo,

    Kito Ryu for throwing, correct, other, no it doesn't, see above...

    MarkF wrote:"but that hasn't stoppend practitioners of classical judo from adding their spin on it. There were many different stylists of jujutsu at the Kodokan early on. Saigo Shiro was early on so what did a great practioner of daito ryu aiki jujutsu add to the mix?"

    Arghh ! Mark, Shiro Saigo didn't learn Daito Ryu. He was never a student of Takeda. It's never really been established what Shiro Saigo studied or learned from Chickamasa Saigo, or whatever the Aizu guy's name was.

    "No one since has been able to describe or even say how his "yama arashi" throw was accomplished, and the best guess is hane goshi, but I have also heard harai goshi, seoi nage/otoshi, and others."

    True, but your best guesses are just that, WAGs.

    Sorry, just wanted to continue the discussion a little
    Mark F. Feigenbaum

    Your faithful correction demon,

    Ben Reinhardt

  4. #64
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

    Default More for the Mix

    RE: Fusen-ryu amd Judo.

    I've made an acquaintance that recently began training in Fusen-ryu in Japan. He has noted that he has seen little Judo style newaza in the curriculum. It may be there, but he hasn't seen it yet in training or in demos, and seems to doubt that it looks like present day Kodokan newaza.

    He did mention that in the schools randori he has seen groundwork and things like sangaku jime, but was not sure it was pure Fusen-ryu or just happened in grappling.

    Mataemon Tanabe, a past headmaster of the Fusen-ryu and the "winner" of those matches with the Kodokan c. 1900 (I believe the story goes that he won the first the match, then won again a year later after his opponent, Tobari, concentrated on newaza) also appears in Yokoyama's Judo Kyohan demonstrating several of the katamewaza.

    I've video of the Ryushin Katchu-ryu, derived from Tenjin Shinyo-ryu which shows an interesting sequence: Tomoe nage followed by a a BJJ style mount (sitting up) in which the collars are grabbed and three attempts are made at tsuki komi jime, which are defended and then the tori drops back into exactly the Judo/BJJ juji gatame.

    Then again, the dropping juji gatame shows up in some of the really old koryu jujutsu, too.

    A lot of the older schools probably added stuff to their curriculum for these kinds of matches over the more "battlefield" oriented tactics (i.e. pin him face down cut his throat stuff). In some traditions it may have survived, or they may have had particular members that concentrated on such things. I'm sure there is more on this available in Japanese rather than English.
    Last edited by Kit LeBlanc; 28th February 2002 at 19:49.

  5. #65
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    Default watch out

    As Joel intimated Egan's Dojo is a rather rough place. It has the reputation of being quite rough here in Honolulu. No question that they have developed a number of talented fighters but I have heard way too many stories of people getting injured while training their for me to ever consider training there.
    There is another non Gracie affiliated BBJ dojo on Kapiolani and a guy up towards the North shore. Relson Gracie was commended a year or two ago as the BJJ instructor of the year. I've attended a seminar with him as well as attending his Saturday morning Beginer's familiarity class. If his tuition wasn't so expensive I'd seriosly consider taking more BJJ. He's a nice guy and a phenominal teacher. As it is I get by on Judo (nice and Cheap).
    Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow...
    ...that's what makes my thumper go

  6. #66
    DavidMasaki Guest

    Default

    Originally posted by Kolschey
    At a seminar two years ago, I had the chance to talk to a senior instructor of Aikido about BJJ. While he had respect for it's capability as a very effective art for single person combat, he also was quick to point out that it is not an ideal form for all circumstances, or as he put it..
    " I heard that the Marines were considering adopting the Gracie System. Now picture this.. You have a guy with body armour, web gear, night vision goggles- the whole works, and he's going to get down on the ground with someone and try to choke them into submission while meanwhile his( the adversary's) buddy comes up with a bayonet and skewers him?! This just doesn't make sense."
    He's right, it doesn't make sense! Why would a marine have all that high tech equipment but no GUN or other weapon? Why would he be alone and not have buddies of his own for backup? Just because the Marines may teach BJJ techniques, doesn't mean they're going to walk around weaponless and by themselves in hostile terrority because they know a choke from BJJ. Sounds like your Aikido instructor just has a grudge against BJJ.

  7. #67
    DavidMasaki Guest

    Default Re: watch out

    Originally posted by Tony Peters
    There is another non Gracie affiliated BBJ dojo on Kapiolani and a guy up towards the North shore. Relson Gracie was commended a year or two ago as the BJJ instructor of the year. I've attended a seminar with him as well as attending his Saturday morning Beginer's familiarity class. If his tuition wasn't so expensive I'd seriosly consider taking more BJJ. He's a nice guy and a phenominal teacher. As it is I get by on Judo (nice and Cheap).
    As far as prices go, I think Relson's class is pretty reasonable compared to other BJJ schools. $60 a month for 4 lessons and you can go and free train 6 days a week. You can learn more free training with all the guys that hang out there than from the lessons. But yeah, compared to judo with some clubs in Hawaii being $5 a month, it is some bucks.

  8. #68
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    Tony Peters wrote:
    As Joel intimated Egan's Dojo is a rather rough place. It has the reputation of being quite rough here in Honolulu. No question that they have developed a number of talented fighters but I have heard way too many stories of people getting injured while training their for me to ever consider training there.
    There is another non Gracie affiliated BBJ dojo on Kapiolani and a guy up towards the North shore. Relson Gracie was commended a year or two ago as the BJJ instructor of the year. I've attended a seminar with him as well as attending his Saturday morning Beginer's familiarity class. If his tuition wasn't so expensive I'd seriosly consider taking more BJJ. He's a nice guy and a phenominal teacher. As it is I get by on Judo (nice and Cheap).


    I've heard the same about Inoue's school as well. I've gotten the general *impression* that it's pretty much for (semi-)professional fighters and wannabes. And that people get hurt there a lot. But that's just what people've told me.

    So, Tony, how was the gjj place? That's over on Queen St., right? Wierd coincidence, but I was thinking of going and checking it out next week(-end).

    cu on sunday?

    -Charles
    ----------
    Charles Lockhart
    FBI: From da' Big Island

  9. #69
    DavidMasaki Guest

    Default

    Charles, you should definitely check out Relson's school. It's a great place to start BJJ training. Contrary to some of the posts here, everyone's very friendly and the instruction is very good.

  10. #70
    godstar Guest

    Cool OK I RANT NUTS!!!!!

    Well its interesting that BJJrs try so hard to win converts as if it is a religion. An intersting fact that some JJJ styles ARE RELIGIONS, and most are based on shintoism. One thing that backed off my hatred of the Gracies was the fact that Helios had nine sons, anyone familiar with the kuji-in/kuji kiri.

    To the thread title. What little I've seen of BJJ has been them moving around and putting their oponent in a bad position and then diving at his legs to finish it in ne-wasa. The rest of what I know has been some bad mannered kids(most of them in their thirty's) pissing people off so they can talk about their art ad nasium.

    A little research turns up some not too flattering facts. First off the early UFC's were owned largely by the Gracie Family and a Gracie was the fight director- and they win suprise! Most of the arguments I've heard seemed to imply that if my art was valuable I would fight one of them to prove my art. In the past all matter of stylists in fact did fight them and several of them won, and to this day these same arts are often derided by BJJ practioners. A short list being TKD, Sambo, Judo, kempo, Coepernica etc. So why do BJJ-rs continue to badmouth these styles even though they have beaten them -while implying that this is what me and other people who are happy with their styles can do to prove it has some worth?

    Now what is emerging in the combat sports is what is called MMA, which is basically BJJ, thai boxing, wrestling and western boxing. In the MMA paradigm there is an addition of one western art per eastern very aiki, and not the only one way one answere. If BJJ beating a low ranked boxer in the first UFC disproves its efficacy why are MMA now doing better if they learn it? So if royce dove at my legs and humiliated me eventually fighters would do better by learning something of my art.

    Is an art better (martial art or otherwise) in every respect if it wins a duel? The answere is no and history has already had a highly visable example in the Martial arts. If you read Judo threads you are aware of a supposed JJJ vs. Judo match held by the tokyo polive to determine which art was superior for police work by a sporting event. And Judo won. But what is the rest of the story? Today the tokyo police use Yoshinkan aikido, because a lot of police ended up getting killed after the switch and needed another martial art. The thing was though that the old police jujutsu had weapons dissarms that worked.

    Now to the thread title. Perhaps the two most significant loses in the minds of BJJrs has been to japanese fighters schooled in jujutsu. One of course being kimura and the other sakabura.

    Methinks that just like the police example that its all a matter of appropriation. Is such and such an art good for this situation? I believe that as MMA competition fills out its curriculum it will borrow from more and more styles. But as far as appropriation goes some styles don't lend well to sports, but may have significant application in real life.

  11. #71
    DavidMasaki Guest

    Default Re: OK I RANT NUTS!!!!!

    Originally posted by godstar
    Well its interesting that BJJrs try so hard to win converts as if it is a religion.
    I don't know if you're referring to me where I simply agreed with Charles he should check it out since he was already thinking about it, but I'm not trying to convert anyone to BJJ as a religion. I do Kyokushin, GJJ, and Judo. I'm open to learning new things and I don't think any one martial art has all the answers and respect them all (for the most part). I certainly don't look at BJJ as a religion. I personally don't train for NHB, I train sport BJJ because I enjoy the competition and sport and don't want to get get seriously hurt. When I tell people to check it out, it's like if if I was telling someone to go snowboarding because it's a fun sport. Haven't you ever found something you liked doing and told someone else about it? Did you ever try to get someone to play basketball with you? A game of football? Tell anyone to try anything new? Were you accused of trying to "get converts?" Would that sound ridiculous if you were? Well there you have it.

    What irritates me is people who don't know jack about BJJ and try to speculate about the art and the people who train in it and make all these false assumptions about what it's really about based upon one thing they saw, one person they met, etc, and post their theories here. All they'd have to do is go to a school and check it out for a month and see what it's really about. BJJ has proven itself to be one of the most practical martial arts and yet it seems to get the least respect from traditionalists who constantly try to bash it.

    I honestly I think a lot of times what prevents people from trying BJJ to get the real picture is that they look at their current martial art as a religion and doing so would somehow be sacriligous. So in their minds they try to justify that somehow BJJ is not all it's cracked up to be or try to rationalize that what they're doing is somehow superior. Not that I'm saying BJJ is in fact superior, but if you're coming from a martial art with any bit of tradition, you'll find it different. Training in BJJ is a lot more like training in wrestling than most martial arts because it doesn't require bowing, doesn't have a formal sempai/kohai relationship structure, etc. and everything you learn is stuff that you actually try to execute in competition.

    Maybe the more people that know about BJJ, the fewer people we'll have posting stupid ideas theorizing about it. BJJ is not a theory art like so many other martial arts! I see so many people posting the same things over and over. "BJJ doesn't handle multiple attackers." "BJJ doesn't do this, BJJ doesn't do that." Well if they actually took BJJ and learned something about it, maybe they wouldn't be so quick to point out flaws in a system they know nothing about.
    Last edited by DavidMasaki; 1st March 2002 at 14:01.

  12. #72
    Guest

    Thumbs up

    What irritates me is people who don't know jack about BJJ and try to speculate about the art and the people who train in it and make all these false assumptions about what it's really about based upon one thing they saw, one person they met, etc, and post their theories here. All they'd have to do is go to a school and check it out for a month and see what it's really about.
    GREAT point! I mean just in general period! It is so true.

    About Sak. I would not say BJJ is a sport. It has sport (Tournament-Vale Tudo) and self defense for life. It's an art. I would say however pride and all related "NHB" competitions ARE sports. And Bjj does well in them.

    But, the environment of "NHB" is a fixed situation, meaning there are a set of rules and an objective. People (like Sak) adapt their game to win the competition. Gracies figured out a way to win for a while, and now others are adapting to the situation and figuring out ways to beat what the gracies have brought, and of course the gracies have and will adapt etc...

    It's a sport where everyone can play if you are willing to hold to the rules. Any style at all, but it is really not style against style, but the individual adapting to the environment. Many things from BJJ that are not used in "NHB" anymore work EXCELLENT in Tournaments! Many self defense moves won't work well in either situation but are fine for self defense...

    One of the problems I see, is that people see competitions and see style against style. No. It is individual against individual... The winner being the one who has adapted best to the environment and trained his body well enough to be able to DO that which he has figured out.

    My 2 cents,

    -Rick

  13. #73
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

    Default WHY?

    Wondering why this thread seems to be starting all over again. Hint, folks, go back and read from the beginning.

    Dave Masaki, TELL 'EM LIKE IT IS!!!

    Godstar,

    Best NOT to post and have us not be aware that you don't know what you are talking about RE: BJJ, rather than post, and prove it!


    'Bye

  14. #74
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    Originally posted by charlesl


    I've heard the same about Inoue's school as well. I've gotten the general *impression* that it's pretty much for (semi-)professional fighters and wannabes. And that people get hurt there a lot. But that's just what people've told me.

    So, Tony, how was the gjj place? That's over on Queen St., right? Wierd coincidence, but I was thinking of going and checking it out next week(-end).

    cu on sunday?

    -Charles
    The funny thing about Egan's school is that it does have that reputation where as his brother's schools do not. I have rolled in Enson's school in Guam and it is much more mellow.
    As for Relson's school I did the intro thing when they were on Koko Head ave. I've not been in the new school. They are (or were) quite cool I watched a few classes there. But I'm poor and in the end it came down to money.
    Yes I'll be up on Sun...I had to work last week.
    Last edited by Tony Peters; 1st March 2002 at 17:48.
    Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow...
    ...that's what makes my thumper go

  15. #75
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

    Default ???

    Tony,

    Do you know Leonard Gabriel?

    According to him, and the litany of injuries he has described to me, Enson is a VERY rough character....

    Then again, training for MMA is, I think, a different thing and injuries are par for the course. We have to remember that one man's "injury" is another man's "owie."

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