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Thread: BJJ vs. JJJ

  1. #76

    Default

    Enson and Egan are both pro fighters. If their gyms are for training pro-fighters, you've got to expect a different level of intensity to most 'hobby' (no disrespect intended) dojos.

    I would imagine that pro-boxing gyms can be fairly intense, scary places, too.

    Anyway, as Kit said we've come full circle. But has anybody answered John's original question? (will the word 'Jujutsu' come to imply Brazilian Jiu-jitsu?).

    I think it all comes down to marketing - and whatever else you say about the Gracies, they've been hugely succesful at promoting their art worldwide (and particularly in the States) in a short space of time. I think this alone is one of the main causes of 'BJJ-bashing' amongst traditional MAists (TKD suffers from this too).

    My impression FWIW (and it's mostly gleaned from the 'net, so beware! ) is that in the USA BJJ has probably already supplanted JJJ in the public's eye.

    In Europe, I think the term Ju-Jitsu had stronger public awareness to begin with. Britain already has its own indiginous style of JJ, and in Europe JJ is very often taught right alongside Judo at Judo dojos (and Judo is extremely popular).

    Personally I don't care whether people think what I study is BJJ or JJJ - particularly since I just got my blue belt and that seems to carry a certain amount of kudos in the BJJ world!

    Cheers,

    Mike

  2. #77
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    Default Sorry no

    I don't know him. It has been a while since I've rolled in Guam, my last 4 trips, I was recovering from a dislocated thumb (Volleyball) I did notice that there were two distinct groups the fighters and the wrestlers so to speak. With the wrestlers doing more of the Submission Wrestling style. Those are the guys I rolled with. I've never had the pleasure of meeting Enson just his students.
    Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow...
    ...that's what makes my thumper go

  3. #78
    Ben Reinhardt Guest

    Default Re: More for the Mix

    Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc
    RE: Fusen-ryu amd Judo.

    I've made an acquaintance that recently began training in Fusen-ryu in Japan. He has noted that he has seen little Judo style newaza in the curriculum. It may be there, but he hasn't seen it yet in training or in demos, and seems to doubt that it looks like present day Kodokan newaza.

    He did mention that in the schools randori he has seen groundwork and things like sangaku jime, but was not sure it was pure Fusen-ryu or just happened in grappling.

    Mataemon Tanabe, a past headmaster of the Fusen-ryu and the "winner" of those matches with the Kodokan c. 1900 (I believe the story goes that he won the first the match, then won again a year later after his opponent, Tobari, concentrated on newaza) also appears in Yokoyama's Judo Kyohan demonstrating several of the katamewaza.

    I've video of the Ryushin Katchu-ryu, derived from Tenjin Shinyo-ryu which shows an interesting sequence: Tomoe nage followed by a a BJJ style mount (sitting up) in which the collars are grabbed and three attempts are made at tsuki komi jime, which are defended and then the tori drops back into exactly the Judo/BJJ juji gatame.

    Then again, the dropping juji gatame shows up in some of the really old koryu jujutsu, too.

    A lot of the older schools probably added stuff to their curriculum for these kinds of matches over the more "battlefield" oriented tactics (i.e. pin him face down cut his throat stuff). In some traditions it may have survived, or they may have had particular members that concentrated on such things. I'm sure there is more on this available in Japanese rather than English.

    Very interesting Kit. This is the only reference to current practice of Fusen Ryu I've seen coming from Japan. I've seen a couple from Europe, but nothing specific.

    I wonder if it's the same as the original lineage that fought the Kodokan ? Any chance to get contact info ? This is kind of one of those mysteries of Judo history.

    Does the Fusen Ryu you saw basically look like other koryu JJ styles ?

    Thanks,

    Ben Reinhardt

  4. #79
    Ben Reinhardt Guest

    Default Re: OK I RANT NUTS!!!!!

    Originally posted by godstar
    Well its interesting that BJJrs try so hard to win converts as if it is a religion. An intersting fact that some JJJ styles ARE RELIGIONS, and most are based on shintoism. One thing that backed off my hatred of the Gracies was the fact that Helios had nine sons, anyone familiar with the kuji-in/kuji kiri.

    To the thread title. What little I've seen of BJJ has been them moving around and putting their oponent in a bad position and then diving at his legs to finish it in ne-wasa. The rest of what I know has been some bad mannered kids(most of them in their thirty's) pissing people off so they can talk about their art ad nasium.

    A little research turns up some not too flattering facts. First off the early UFC's were owned largely by the Gracie Family and a Gracie was the fight director- and they win suprise! Most of the arguments I've heard seemed to imply that if my art was valuable I would fight one of them to prove my art. In the past all matter of stylists in fact did fight them and several of them won, and to this day these same arts are often derided by BJJ practioners. A short list being TKD, Sambo, Judo, kempo, Coepernica etc. So why do BJJ-rs continue to badmouth these styles even though they have beaten them -while implying that this is what me and other people who are happy with their styles can do to prove it has some worth?

    Now what is emerging in the combat sports is what is called MMA, which is basically BJJ, thai boxing, wrestling and western boxing. In the MMA paradigm there is an addition of one western art per eastern very aiki, and not the only one way one answere. If BJJ beating a low ranked boxer in the first UFC disproves its efficacy why are MMA now doing better if they learn it? So if royce dove at my legs and humiliated me eventually fighters would do better by learning something of my art.

    Is an art better (martial art or otherwise) in every respect if it wins a duel? The answere is no and history has already had a highly visable example in the Martial arts. If you read Judo threads you are aware of a supposed JJJ vs. Judo match held by the tokyo polive to determine which art was superior for police work by a sporting event. And Judo won. But what is the rest of the story? Today the tokyo police use Yoshinkan aikido, because a lot of police ended up getting killed after the switch and needed another martial art. The thing was though that the old police jujutsu had weapons dissarms that worked.

    Now to the thread title. Perhaps the two most significant loses in the minds of BJJrs has been to japanese fighters schooled in jujutsu. One of course being kimura and the other sakabura.

    Methinks that just like the police example that its all a matter of appropriation. Is such and such an art good for this situation? I believe that as MMA competition fills out its curriculum it will borrow from more and more styles. But as far as appropriation goes some styles don't lend well to sports, but may have significant application in real life.
    Godstar is a known troll from rec.martial arts, if it matters to anyone.

    Ben Reinhardt

  5. #80
    godstar Guest

    Default

    Originally posted by godstar
    Well its interesting that BJJrs try so hard to win converts as if it is a religion.

    Originally posted by DavidMasaki
    I don't know if you're referring to me
    NO.

    What irritates me is people who don't know jack about BJJ and try to speculate about the art and the people who train in it....

    hmm... Pot Kettle, I like your post I really do but everything is reversed am I in the twilight zone or something. I have seen hundreds of posts by BJJrs deriding everything, and in most cases they are assuming that the person they are talking to is walking around on stilts doing kata exersize. You can check it out this way, look on an aikido forum, kung fu and so on, and they 90% know nothing about the other arts. You rarely find aikidoka going to a silat forum to deride their art. So why do all of these forums have BJJrs trying to win converts with Bullying and insults? And here this is a koryu-jj forum, which is supposed to be only for the discussion japanese jujutsu arts formed prior to the Meji Restoration(which clearly BJJ is not)? Why do BJJrs find it necessary to violate the forums policy in order to win more converts? This is hardly the action of an innocently attacked style as they tend to feel they are after invading where they are not invited.

    So in their minds they try to justify that somehow BJJ is not all it's cracked up to be

    Its not. Read My post where I point out that the GRACIE FAMILY owned and operated the UFC. The whole thing was nearly rigged. When they later sold out BJJ lost to X-styled Martial artists. And BJJ's most significant loses were to Japanese Grapplers. There are also other death matches that really go to the death, Kendange matches, kumite/jjj which the japanese govt. banned in the 1960's etc.:burnup:

    or try to rationalize that what they're doing is somehow superior.

    This is how most BJJ posts on this and other forums appear to me. No offense pedro but I don't have anything against Brazilians or Jujitsu its just an observation that when the two mix it forms a BIG EGO. Now I don't know if its just a bunch of stupid Idiots who have never been inside a dojo and just have the Gracie in action series(which is what I suspect.) But if you want to change this cowboys mind, trying to get me to eyegouge you or fight you for real to the death isn't going to cut it. And if its just you and me I accept...

    Not that I'm saying BJJ is in fact superior,

    But usually 'superior' or 'ultimate' or some other ego satisfying adjective is used with gay abandon.

    but if you're coming from a martial art with any bit of tradition, you'll find it different.

    There are many unique systems. Mostly what people in the US call traditional isn't. Most of what you say to other people about not knowing your art is advice for yourself. Karate and so on is not tradtitional MA, in fact I would say they are a Business. That being said BJJ has done all it can to sell itself out.

    Training in BJJ is a lot more like training in wrestling

    Wrestling is thousands of years old. They used to do it in the nude with oil in greco roman times... India may have the oldest unbroken line of groundfighting but I'm not sure. I know for sure that kukishin ryu has ne-wasa from being pushed on your back with a stick, and that japanese geisha(prostitutes) used ne-wasa as well.

    Maybe the more people that know about BJJ, the fewer people we'll have posting stupid ideas theorizing about it.

    We hope. But I think that BJJ trolls will have to change first because their are too many styles that promote egoism, arrogance and so on -for magically all MA stylists to be kind balanced and just and so on...

    BJJ is not a theory art like so many other martial arts!

    Name them ... I'll start. Aiki(do) JU(do/jitsu)

    I see so many people posting the same things over and over. "BJJ doesn't handle multiple attackers." "BJJ doesn't do this, BJJ doesn't do that."

    Well they do this because BJJrs try to approach other martial artists(and they may be the kids with only video tapes) in hostile manner.

    Every time in the past that I have had hope for BJJrs on forums I have been dissapointed. So perhaps today is the start of a new era, perhaps its not.

    Since you are in koryu forum if you want to learn and grow, you should actually research where BJJ ne-wasa came from.

    Besides I am clearly not smart for responding, this only enforces the fight and the bickering. But hey truth will out!

    Lets face it usenet is about bickering and I'm here to fight.

    Well if they actually took BJJ and learned something about it, maybe they wouldn't be so quick to point out flaws in a system they know nothing about.

    Ah so you ADMIT it has flaws...

    Consider my religion comment.

    Greg Howard-

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    Default

    Hey Greg,

    Who cares? Just train. You obviously read too much forum junk and not train enough.

  7. #82
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

    Default Re: Re: More for the Mix

    Originally posted by Ben Reinhardt



    Very interesting Kit. This is the only reference to current practice of Fusen Ryu I've seen coming from Japan. I've seen a couple from Europe, but nothing specific.

    I wonder if it's the same as the original lineage that fought the Kodokan ? Any chance to get contact info ? This is kind of one of those mysteries of Judo history.

    Does the Fusen Ryu you saw basically look like other koryu JJ styles ?

    Thanks,

    Ben Reinhardt
    The current soke is named Inoue, if I remember correctly. Daniel Lee has had some contact with them as well, and provided me with some information on the school. There are apparently several other groups training, from what I gather all in the same area, and doing so as sort of study groups with varying levels of connection to the soke. Tanabe was I think the 4th headmaster, but I really don't know if it may be a completely separate line.

    My acquaintance sent me a short video of a demo and yes, it looked like other koryu jujutsu. Weapons, wristlocks, self defense against strikes etc. He showed me one or two things but only on a quick break from a seminar in an unrelated art, so it was by no means comprehensive, and I don't believe that he considers himself to have a comprehensive knowledge of Fusen-ryu at this time. What he showed me was just like other koryu jujutsu as well. I hope to continue our contact so that I can see more and search out the roots of this elusive newaza element.

    My initial impression is as I described above...Fusen-ryu is like other koryu jujutsu schools and probably taught more pinning and controls to gain the opportunity to deploy a blade, or in response to an armed attack, rather than Judo/BJJ style newaza.

    From what I have gleaned in my own studies, as well as sitting at the feet of teachers such as mister Amdur, due to the prevalence of taryu jiai in Meiji, I think many schools adjusted their curriculum for that style of fighting, which I described a little above...throws only "counted" if the man couldn't continue, and otherwise matches were won by pins, locks, or strangles. Striking was generally not allowed in such training matches or matches while visiting other dojo, etc. Even formerly "battlefield" systems developed unarmed techniques for this kind of fighting. Really it reminds me of submission grappling the way it is practiced now or say BJJ matches, rather than Judo.

    Now, for some conjecture...Fusen-ryu no doubt had their own specialists in this kind of match, which Tanabe probably was, and he probably figured that like today, not a lot of people are very adept at groundwork unless they focus their training on it. If the Judo/Fusen-ryu thing happened c. 1900, they had many years after the famed police matches to develop a style that the Kodokan was probably familiar with (like all koryu jujutsu would have) but not EXPERT at ...and there you have it. Tanabe is also in the famous 1906 picture of all the Jujutsu masters and Kano, and since he also appears in Yokoyama's book, his expertise was probably called on to help develop the newaza curriculum of the Kodokan. Question is was it Fusen-ryu, or was it simply something Tanabe developed for taryu jiai from his overall jujutsu knowledge?

    This calls to mind other questions though. Kashiwazaki says in his Shimewaza book that sangaku jime, for example, was not a classical jujutsu technique, except for one variation. But I think I saw a picture of a Tatsumi-ryu exponent doing the technique. It might be on Koryu.com. Of course, I don't know if it WAS sangaku, or if it was, say the armbar variation of sangaku, or if it WAS Tatsumi-ryu but only AFTER someone added JUDO's sangaku to the curriculum, or that Tatsumi-ryu is the variation Kashiwazaki was thinking of!

    Still digging....

    Here's the link...looking at it again, it is definitely NOT sangaku...

    http://koryu.com/photos/tsrboso93.html

  8. #83
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    Default politeness and facts

    Originally posted by godstar

    japanese geisha(prostitutes) used ne-wasa as well.

    Lets face it usenet is about bickering and I'm here to fight.


    Greg Howard-
    Two things I have a problem with Greg

    1) Japanese Geisha are not now nor have they ever been Prostitutes.

    2) this is not Usenet it is a BBS and there are rules dictating behavior. If all you are here for is to start fights do it elseware otherwise behave.

    As to the subject at hand. Yes many of the Gracie flag wavers have no real idea what they are talking about even when refering to their own (supposedly) art/style. As for the fight game remember Chuck Norris did real well when he enterd the full contact game because no one had seen the Korean style that he had. Now the big thing is Muy Thai. MMA had to change and with it so did GJJ/BJJ. 5 years ago they, BJJ, didn't have leglocks (just like Judo) like the Koryu when they were Genryu (to use a term from Ellis Amdur) they are constantly adapting. I still feel that they are too ground/ne waza based but that is where they are comfortable. I prefer a better mix
    Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow...
    ...that's what makes my thumper go

  9. #84
    DavidMasaki Guest

    Default

    Hi Tony,

    Actually BJJ always had leg locks.



    Greg,

    The facts that GJJ came from a student of Kano, and that the Gracies created the UFC to promote Gracie Jiu-Jitsu are not startling revelations. They're common knowledge. Obviously you haven't been around very long. Maybe you should pick up a tape of the first few UFCs when the Gracies still owned it. They didn't hide the fact at all. But if on the otherhand can prove that the fights were rigged, that would be a revelation. However, I seriously doubt you have some substantiated information that no one else does.


    David

  10. #85
    godstar Guest

    Talking chumma Jumma

    Two things I have a problem with Greg
    1) Japanese Geisha are not now nor have they ever been Prostitutes.
    2) this is not Usenet it is a BBS and there are rules dictating behavior. If all you are here for is to start fights do it elseware otherwise behave.
    Good koshijutsu. I wonder if you meant something deeper by choosing these two points instead of the major points that I made. Is one yin and one yang?

    Geisha I think translates to entertainer person(Gei -entertainment acting etc)(and sha(ja) person)-I think please correct me that is what I was told. Its obvious that female Geisha in japan often included sexual favors within their job as actor entertainers... But your post brought into question the techniques I was taught. I vaguely remember in japanese history, that higher ranked geisha were rarely prostitutes. What I was shown as geisha -jujutsu was movements- designed to work for a female in restrictive clothing, they rotated or bowed in standing kata and used groundfighting that was obviously rape self defense. I don't remember the name of the ryu nor know how authentic the movements were. Just some round eye showing me some things he saw in japan.

    The second point. Everyone who posts a dissenting view is in some way being a troll. Is that always bad? Well if the troll in question only posts things to increase ignorant ranting no its not. But if you can open up an intelligent debate the troll in question will have hit his mark.:smokin: Lets face it Grappling arts favor people with lower centers of gravity, and a troll has a lower center of gravity. They also work against stronger attackers and yes this often happens when trolls face Wizards and Gobblins.

    Greg-

  11. #86
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    Default

    Originally posted by DavidMasaki
    Hi Tony,

    Actually BJJ always had leg locks.

    David
    David,
    I knew that they had them (leglocks) but that they were not practiced with any regularity until the late ninties. It was my impression that they only worked on the defences and not so much on the application until more of the BJJ guys started seeing the various leglocks in competitions (submisson grappling not NHB).

    Greg,
    my chief complaints were about your tone and the fact that your post on Geisha showed that you have/had done little research on what they really were. Yes sex was a part of what they did but on a very low level (and usually only when they were young). Older ones usually had a benefactor (who they may or may not have slept with) and the rest of their clients. Sex of any sort in their regular business would ruin their ability to continue working. There have been some very good books written about the geisha one even written by the only american to become one. Using facts helps an argument.
    I could care less about whether you disagree with others just the way you do it.
    Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow...
    ...that's what makes my thumper go

  12. #87
    godstar Guest

    Angry I'm just ranting

    DavidMasaki Wrote
    The facts that GJJ came from a student of Kano, and that the Gracies created the UFC to promote Gracie Jiu-Jitsu are not startling revelations.

    Believe it or not I have no reason to prejudice myself against brazilians or jujutsu or martial sports I've done all three.

    They're common knowledge.

    I believe that most people in the world who don't do martial arts and don't have a two thousand dollar computer know anything about this sort of thing. The first thing I ever learned about BJJ was some beligerant a**hole telling TKDrs their art was useless. And I was like hey in jujutsu we treat people with respect and they layed in to me. And since then my impression has been mostly bad. The UFC's are a little more than human cock fights. And it appears to me that this sort of promotion attracted a lot of people with inferiority complexes - who lach on to something they see as strong -and they can bully people with in hypothetical land - Gracie Jujitsu.

    Obviously you haven't been around very long.

    That's not true I've trained in MA since I was seven. I've always gone into a dojo to learn, I have never challenged anyone or felt the need to prove my style is superior. I have always felt in my training that each style has its strengths and weaknesses, both in combat and in individual growth.

    Maybe you should pick up a tape of the first few UFCs when the Gracies still owned it. They didn't hide the fact at all.

    I did. And they didn't announce it over and over or flash it on the screen. Most people were given an impression that it was an absolutely no rules fight and people gave the impression that each martial sport was given equal opportunity in this matchup. The Gracies by choosing the venue and constituants clearly had an advantage over all other martial sports.

    But if on the otherhand can prove that the fights were rigged, that would be a revelation.

    Yeah thats what It looks like to me.

    However, I seriously doubt you have some substantiated information that no one else does.

    See thats what concerns me. I don't and yet with the EGO and all the other stuff I tend not to have enough faith in them to rule this out.

    But lets expand suspicious details. As an open minded person I watched the first UFC. Question one why would they hold it in the mile high city? We know from the Olympics that athletes had problems there due to the thin air. My guess is that they have had Royce train their for several weeks to increase his lung mass(which you must do in the mile high city or get quick fatigue.) Shamrock clearly hadn't done this since he said he flew in from Japan. Shoto by the way is rigged -that is common knowledge. So the victory was to someone who threw matches for money in Japan. The rest of the fighters were out of shape and had shotty records- and most of them didn't actually do their style correctly or at all(see the TKD guy.)

    Now Just think if Other BJ proponents had been humble no one would have been annoyed enough to point this out to you.

  13. #88
    godstar Guest

    Red face Tone Sleep Geisha

    Tony Peters

    Greg,
    my chief complaints were about your tone


    Sorry.

    and the fact that your post on Geisha showed that you have/had done little research on what they really were. Yes sex was a part of what they did but on a very low level

    Your right that I haven't done that much research on them, and it is a common misconception that they all are prostitutes. A misconception that I unfortunately helped propogate in my post. But we shouldn't go so far as to say they were never prostitutes. So we must seek universal balance in this.

    -Greg Howard-

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    Default Re: Tone Sleep Geisha

    Originally posted by godstar
    Tony Peters

    Greg,
    my chief complaints were about your tone


    Sorry.

    and the fact that your post on Geisha showed that you have/had done little research on what they really were. Yes sex was a part of what they did but on a very low level

    Your right that I haven't done that much research on them, and it is a common misconception that they all are prostitutes. A misconception that I unfortunately helped propogate in my post. But we shouldn't go so far as to say they were never prostitutes. So we must seek universal balance in this.

    -Greg Howard-

    If one takes the Webster's definition of "prostitute" which is "one who engages in intercorse for money" "a person who willingly engages in intercourse for monetary gain" then a Geisha isn't one as they never saw the money for anytime they were "paid" for sex. The money...all of it...went to the house mother. The geisha herself was considered a slave.
    Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow...
    ...that's what makes my thumper go

  15. #90
    jerry davis Guest

    Default

    Just a couple of things. Obvioulsy, whether any of the Gracies' matches were rigged or not, they are obviously very, very good, as are the Brazilians in general. MMA is a sport, and sometimes sports are rigged. However, in the absence of actual evidence, it's probably better to assume everything is above board. After all, it takes two to tango. There has to be wrong on the loser's side as well. In any case, I kind of like to judge for myself what is "real" or not. I thought Royce looked pretty hard-pressed against Kimo. I only have about 30 years in martial arts, but some of these fighters look to me like they are really taking a beating, unlike the "professional wrestling" shows. Overall, I'd say MMA has been a great boon to JJJ, and the martial arts in general, not to mention the interest and economic boom it has produced. Martial artists actually making money at what they really do, as opposed to movies or phony TV serials. I think it's great. We haven't seen this much interest in martial arts since Bruce Lee passed on. (It's just a shame he isn't still here to add his own wrinkles to the MMA picture.) And the great thing is, there is no end in sight. The whole thing rolls along by the weight of many talented people, rather than living and dying by the exploits of one person. Although the title of this thread is BJJ vs. JJJ, I can't help but see how the evolution of MMA is going to bring them both back towards the middle eventually. Regards.

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