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Thread: Fusen ryu jujutsu

  1. #16
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    Default

    Mark

    There was a Fusen Ryu Club in Germany, but their web-site has been taken down. I had the URL until recently, but when I went through and checked my list, I found it was dead and I deleted it.

    I've been racking my brain trying to remember where they were. The site was live a year or so ago and I did post the URL here, but I think that was pre-crash as I can't find it in a search.

    If Robert Reinberger is around, he may know, or a question posted to his board (http://pub32.ezboard.com/bbudoforum) might bring some answers.

    Regards

    Neil
    Neil Hawkins
    "The one thing that must be learnt but
    cannot be taught is understanding"

  2. #17
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    If I am not mistaken the school was in Bremen. I have been trying to locate it but until now without succes.

    Johan Smits

  3. #18
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    Originally posted by Neil Hawkins
    ... If Robert Reinberger is around, he may know, or a question posted to his board (http://pub32.ezboard.com/bbudoforum) might bring some answers.

    Regards

    Neil
    Neil,

    I've posted a question regarding Fusen Ryu and that site at Budoforum. Here is, what I was able to find out so far:

    A Mr. Henry Schubert has trained Fusen Ryu Jujutsu (and some Iaijutsu and Tessenjutsu) for some time under Inoue Sensei. At present, Mr. Schubert doesn't teach Fusen Ryu regulary, but if the opportunity arises, he includes some of the Fusen Ryu Waza he has learnt, especially if he considers it to be a good countermove to a Daito Ryu technique. Fusen Ryu's "Sorihashi" against Daito Ryu's "Obiotoshi" was mentioned.

    The site in question was not known by Mr. Schubert, but seems to have been the site of Mr. Ralf Kollmann (this information was provided in German language at my forum by Johan Smits, thank you Johan!). However, as Bremen - where Mr. Schubert has studied - was mentioned, he immediately betted on Mr. Kollman, who is one of his former students.

    Well, that's all I could find out.

    Regards,
    Robert

  4. #19
    MarkF Guest

    Default

    Thank you, Robert, for the information. I know I saw the website, too, but it has been a while.

    At least I know I'm not losing it completely. Thanks for the backup.

    Mark

  5. #20
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    Yeah, thanks Robert.

    Regards

    Neil
    Neil Hawkins
    "The one thing that must be learnt but
    cannot be taught is understanding"

  6. #21
    Matthew Banks Guest

    Default Fusen Ryu jujutsu

    Dear Sir/Madame,

    For many years I have been interested in starting Fusen Ryu jujutsu.

    Why?... The recent grappling craze has meant everyone wants to start jujutsu. And in my experience, people invent a grappling club chuck in some punches and kicks and market it as ''authentic DEADLY jujutsu- sorry ''jiu jitsu or jiujutsu or jiyotuergkjdfgkljghjitsu'' as they would call it.

    The reason Im interested in the Fusen ryu is due to their ne-waza. Im very interested in a traditional japanese jujutsuka's methodalgy with regards to the floor. Im not out to win fights-far from it, Id love to see e.g. how they focused or centered themselves-if at all, how they were taught to breath etc.

    Plus things like how they develop a powerful 'dojime' constriction.

    Is there anyone in the uk who teaches this, or something similar to this?

    secondly are there any good history books on the subject.

    I loved the ''4 lords of judo article''

    best wishes

    Matthew Banks

  7. #22
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    Question fusen ryu jujutsu

    HI ...
    I dont know anything of Fusen Ryu,
    I was just wondering why you would be studying
    a martial art and not be out to "win fights".

  8. #23
    MarkF Guest

    Default

    Dom,
    Welcome to e-budo! Comments are welcome, but please sign your posts. It is one of a few e-budo rules.

    Hi, Matthew,
    I don't know if there are any fusen schools left out there. So many died out, but the techniques of the school can be found in a Kosen Kodokan Judo dojo, or any judo dojo which practices the ne waza as much as tachiwaza. Even with Kosen, you may have to go to Japan for instruction in their style of ne waza, or perhaps their concentration on ne waza.

    I had heard of a fusen school in Germany at one time by way of the Internet, but cannot seem to find them anymore.

    If you are truly interested in framing your study of grappling in ne waza, a check of local judo schools would be one avenue of finding an instructor who pushes the ne waza equally. But you do know one must get an opponent to the ground first, so even in schools of BJJ, there is tachiwaza. In judo competition, dojime is not permitted, so is not really practiced.

    If kata is on your plate, then too, a search be made of schools which teach all kata officially taught today at the Kodokan Judo Institute.

    But if you are disillusioned by the number of competitive schools, it doesn't mean you can't work through that, but with balance, both can be fit in.
    *****

    In the UK, contact the Budokwai.org and contact Dicky Bowen or John Cornish for help. The Kano_Society or the British Judo Association may be of help.

    John Cornish is still the Kata coach there and is still teaching.

    I hope this helps some.

    Mark

    PS: Kodokan ne waza is based on fusen techniques and some of freestyle wrestling. BJJ can be a good grappling school, but attention to the center and kuzushi are generally not emphasized as it is in most judo dojo. It is good practice for groundwork, though, but judo is probably more complete in the above areas.

    Of course, dojime is welcomed in Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. BJJ isn't a Japanese martial art, but I'm not sure how important that is to you.
    Last edited by MarkF; 4th August 2001 at 08:39.

  9. #24
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    In the new book about koryu jujutsu, by Serge Mol, says that "the Fusen ryu continues today and is still active in Okayama; the seventh and present grandmaster is Inoue Kazutoshi..."



    Mol, Serge. Classical Fighting Arts of Japan: a complete guide to koryu jujutsu. Tokyo: Kodansha, 2001
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

  10. #25
    Edward Williamson Guest

    Default

    Banks -

    Before E-budo crashed, I, also, put a request to anyone with information on the Fusen Ryu. It took a REALLY long time but someone did respond. Unfortunately, I don't recall as to where the gent said they were in Japan. He did say they were active though. Maybe he'll come back and put the info down again.

    As far as studying ne waza via Judo - ya might want to think again. My understanding is that the ne waza of yesterday from the Fusen Ryu is very different from the ne waza practiced today by many groups. Granted, I think its important to ask yourself why you wish to study. As you said, you're not out to win fights. If this is the case, Judo is perfect. If you tried using it in a fight, you @$$ would be as good as kicked. However, the Brazilians did touch it up quite considerably. And, I've yet to see a judoka take someone of equal training from a BJJ school. You could, however, consider looking into other ryu as well that are available in your area. Granted, they are always hard to find but I'm sure you could find something if you looked hard enough. Again, BJJ schools do focus much, much more on the combat side of the realm. But, even so, they still don't allow anything thats considered possible to happen in a real fight such as poking, biting, hair pulling and so on. Of course, ya can't really practice these things. But rolling around on the group for minutes on end is silly knowing one of the persons could (and probably would) just start biting, pinching, poking, etc. Not to offend any judoka, but the ne waza in Judo is FAR FAR away from the curriculum of many jujutsu ryuha that exist today. Whenever there are rules such as no tekubigaeishi, hasame-gaeishi, ashikubi-gaeishi (and the list of what you can't do seems to go on forever and ever in Judo), then you might take the time to consider what you really value.


    Dom -

    Not everyone who studies the arts is interested in "winning fights". There are tons of arts that focus on purely on concepts such as the spiritual, aesthetic, sport, breathing and on and on. Don't get me wrong, everyone needs to have purpose. But not all purposes are the same.

    BTW - there is site:
    http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/fightersnotebook/

    This is supposed to be the biggest book on this topic available. I've seen a copy. Its quite impressive. And, its gotten great reviews.

    There is also a site at http://www.bjj.org Just go to the page on tape reviews listed at http://www.bjj.org/lewis/ I'm told that Mario Sperry's tapes are the very best thing ever to hit the ne waza world. I've not seen them myself, but I've heard about a gajillion people say they watch them all the time. You can also click on the review button at http://bjj.org/lewis/sperry.html and find Mr. Lewis review of the tapes. Its extremely informative.

    I, myself, don't practice BJJ but it would be foolish to say that they're not the leaders in what they do.

    Best,

    Edward

  11. #26
    MarkF Guest

    Default

    Originally posted by Edward Williamson
    Not to offend any judoka, but the ne waza in Judo is FAR FAR away from the curriculum of many jujutsu ryuha that exist today. Whenever there are rules such as no tekubigaeishi, hasame-gaeishi, ashikubi-gaeishi (and the list of what you can't do seems to go on forever and ever in Judo), then you might take the time to consider what you really value.


    I'll bite again. I think you need to take a real long look at reality and not what is one the rules list at a tournament. In the long run and in the short, most equally experienced judoka will beat the BBJer (which I remind you is not a Japanese Martial Art and the name Gracie Jiu jitsu is copyrighted). There are some on this board who have experience in both, the judoka beats the BBJ player in NHB-type "fights." Two large reasons: Kuzushi and centering which are mostly absent from most BJJ schools.

    Another is, just as in most koryu, those waza set aside for the safe practice of randori no kata and shiai, are alive and well in the Kodokan syllabus. Even weapons kata.

    Another reason for judo is that it is nearby. While I didn't know that fusen is still practiced, it was practiced back then at the Kodokan, thus the katame no kata and other ground waza and atemi with various parts of the body, weapons, etc., were not just picked up on an afternoon challenge match, those fusen practitioners were invited to participate.

    Yes, far too many judo dojo concentrate too much time on contest judo, but just like finding the elusive koryu, it can be done, and I would bet you would find it in kosen dojo, as well as other masters and teachers who give the time to ne waza as much as kata and randori no kata (two kata, really), atemi, and weapons.

    Oh would you like to pass on your comment concerning judoka getting their collective A$$ beaten to Jon Bluming-sensei, ninth dan Kodokan Judo? He just loves challenges, and at sixty-nine is as tough as they come.
    *****

    I thought this entire "expect to be beaten if you do this or that" was over. I had thought most would know better than to speak of what one doesn't know. Apparently, it isn't.

    Mark

  12. #27
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    These Websites are about Fusen ryu, but they are in Japanese.

    Fusen ryu Jujutsu http://www.hoops.ne.jp/~mshirou/husenn/husenn.html

    Takimoto-ha Fusen ryu jutaijutsu
    http://isweb3.infoseek.co.jp/diary/hikousen/
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

  13. #28
    Edward Williamson Guest

    Default big bark - SMALL BITE!

    My goodness, the Judo Police has arrived again.

    Mark F:

    "I'll bite again. I think you need to take a real long look at reality and not what is one the rules list at a tournament."

    Why would anyone wish to do that? Judoka do one thing - prepare for competitions - Judo competitions that is.

    "In the long run and in the short, most equally experienced judoka will beat the BBJer (which I remind you is not a Japanese Martial Art and the name Gracie Jiu jitsu is copyrighted)."

    Sorry, wrong again. The biggest problem wish this kind of mentality (as is always seen by practitioners of inferior arts) is that they cannot see the "reality" at all. Whether something is in your curriculum or not means squat if it is not taught and practiced - and not during seminars only. And further, I never used the words or said anything even mentioning the word "Gracie". I simply said BJJ. And, I never said it had anything to do with Japanese. Try reading slower next time - one word after the other.

    "There are some on this board who have experience in both, the judoka beats the BBJ player in NHB-type "fights." Two large reasons: Kuzushi and centering which are mostly absent from most BJJ schools."

    Your right - that's because the focus is not on two people starting from a mune dori. It's from a strike - this being absent in Judo.

    "Another reason for judo is that it is nearby. While I didn't know that fusen is still practiced, it was practiced back then at the Kodokan, thus the katame no kata and other ground waza and atemi with various parts of the body, weapons, etc., were not just picked up on an afternoon challenge match, those fusen practitioners were invited to participate. "

    Whatever makes you sleep better. It makes no difference to me. This isn't new information. Everybody knows the story of Kano's students getting stomped by the Fusen because of their knowledge to fight on the ground. Kano impressed with the concept and the ryu invites them to come and teach. Six years later, the world almost never hears of the Fusen Ryu again. Even you, being a Judoka, didn't know of their practice today. In fact, most don't know but the ne waza of the Fusen Ryu is but only a small part of what they do. They've a larger curriculum focusing on other concepts as well - and they actually practice it.

    As said on other threads, practicing a kata from another ryu doesn't make you a practitioner of that ryu. This sounds almost like the Yoseikan saying they practice Katori Shinto Ryu because Mochizuki has a dan ranking in the art - whew.

    While I will agree that Judo is more accessible, it doesn't mean one should only go to whats merely available without research. This is why I said to look at what the value is based on what the desire is.

    "and I would bet you would find it in kosen dojo, as well as other masters and teachers who give the time to ne waza as much as kata and randori no kata (two kata, really), atemi, and weapons"

    Hmmm...I've been practicing for over four decades now and I've NEVER seen judoka practice anything but shiai for competition. That's not to say that the kind of training you speak of doesn't exist. But, once again, if one has to go to a special dojo to find it, we're no longer talking about the convenient factor anymore. Further, I'd bet that the majority of judoka today don't know jack about striking or weapons for that matter. Why? Because they're too concerned with winning instead of combat. Again, not to say there are not the exceptional few out there. But for the most part, Judo is the same everywhere you go. Rolls, Falls, and Body Throws - whoo hoo. No striking, no joint locks and extremely restricted grappling. And all because you can't do it in competition.

    "Oh would you like to pass on your comment concerning judoka getting their collective A$$ beaten to Jon Bluming-sensei, ninth dan Kodokan Judo? He just loves challenges, and at sixty-nine is as tough as they come. "

    Absolutely. Judoka scare me like a fart in the wind. Virtually none of them have ever been kicked, punched, poked, bitten, hair pulled, pinched, head butted, etc. Need I go on? Being in my sixties as well, I'd be more than happy to oblige those who need some education.

    "I thought this entire "expect to be beaten if you do this or that" was over. I had thought most would know better than to speak of what one doesn't know. Apparently, it isn't."

    "One doesn't know" would, again, be the assumption on your part. I've been a jujutsuka for quite some time now and don't have to go around getting all defensive about my art. If you're content with what you do, fine. Otherwise, stop whining.

    My only reason in responding was to help out. If you can't take what someone says about your art, you better pack a lunch. I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks Judo is great for body throws.....and......what else?

    Playing nice,

    Ed

  14. #29
    Matthew Banks Guest

    Default Re: big bark - SMALL BITE!

    Hi Ed,

    What type of jujutsu do you do?




    Matt Banks

  15. #30
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    Generalizations dont help the debate. Nearly always you have to look at the practitioner first, before the art. I have met good and bad in every art I have seen and practiced.

    I have met some very effective street fighters that practice judo, been swatted around a mat by a few so I would not dismiss them lightly. Nor would I dismiss the Gracie family, who still have an impressive record regardless of the hype.

    The 'who would beat who' debate is pointless to all but those who would participate in a fight. Regardless of who did win a challenge, it still would not prove that one method was conclusively better than the other-only which person was better on the day.

    There are traditional schools of judo in England that emphasise the art over competition. I have a friend that has visited a few in the North West, some of which also practice traditional jujutsu. He also told me that Syd Hoare in London knows the complete syllabus ( and his students are supposed to be very good ).
    Michael Becker

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