Suio Ryu questions

[blitz]

Hello all,

This is my first post here, though I've been reading these forums ravenously for the last few days. Let me give you a little background here, then I'll present my question if I may.

For the last four years or so I've had a desire to study a Martial Art. When I was young I took Judo for a little over a year, and enjoyed it, but haven't been involved in anything since that time. I live in orange county, southern california. The options are pretty open here, it seems to be a martial arts epicenter. Now, since this desire to study MA again took me, I have had a fascination with the sword. Mostly for its meditative side, less for the idea of being a 'little samurai'. Here's a for instance; more appealing than the fantasy of swinging a sword around and vanquishing countless foes, is the thought of going through Kata in a quiet Dojo in the spring, with the sounds of birds in the air. However, being a stickler for logical application, I've been drawn more towards arts like Suio Ryu, and away from the idea of things like Kendo, which seems less...well...authentic, if the Kendoka will forgive me. This is the best way to explain my feelings on the matter, and I don't mean to denigrate Kendo or it's practitioners. Rather I mean to say; kendo is not for me, and that is why. The same reason applies to Iaido. It was closer to the mark, but still not "practical" enough to satisfy some stubborn desire in me, for authentic sword work. So that's where I'm coming from, here are some questions:

Primarily: I have the opportunity to practise Suio Ryu at the Anaheim dojo with some extremely gifted swordsmen, some of whom I'm sure will read this, and I wanted to ask what the thoughts of the general public are on this koryu. As far as I can tell it is NOT widespread at all, and I feel honored by the opportunity, but I don't know the differences between the different sword arts, aside from the major differences of Iaido, Kendo, and Suio Ryu, the three I've been studying lately. It seems, from the classes I have attended, to be up my alley, but I was wondering if anyone had any experience with it. I guess my question is, If Iaido is one type of thing, and Kendo is another type of thing, is Suio Ryu the only other type of thing? Or are there still different colored horses in the japanese sword arts that I am not aware of? Links to websites that I haven't found are welcome.


This one is broad, What are some good books to read, regarding Japanese sword work? Bear in mind that I don't speak japanese.

I guess that's about it for me...Any comments are welcome, I'll even take flames at my newbieness in stride. Thanks guys.

- David Eagle

[Ralutin]

Hi David,

I've trained with some of the Suio ryu budoka in a previous life and they are some of the most intelligent and dedicated martial artists I've had the pleasure of meeting. You'll enjoy training with them. However, I don't know very much about Suio ryu outside of their website:

www.suioryu-usa.org

I'm sure that some of their students will be more than willing to provide you insight on their style.

As far as the iaido vs. kendo vs. Suio ryu question(s) that you have, I leave that up to the better educated and experienced members in this forum to answer. All I can say is that iaido is not quite the same as kendo and that the Suio ryu encompasses many elements of iaido, kenjutsu and a couple of other martial arts. Again, a Suio ryu student would be best suited to answer your questions in greater detail.

I would also welcome you to visit the iaido dojo that I go to at the Norwalk kendo dojo (about 10 miles north of the L.A. / O.C. county border). It's true that kendo is practiced there, but you don't have to practice kendo to practice iaido. However, you do have to endure a noisy kendo session during a good part of our iaido session. You may visit my website for more information:

http://groups.msn.com/scia

Good luck and enjoy your journey,

[DCPan]

I would practice Suio-Ryu, if given the chance, though I'm probably going to stick with MSR now, at this point

FWIW, the current soke of Suio-Ryu is also Kendo 7th dan, kyoshi.

[Brian Stokes]

Hi David,

Questions about the Suio Ryu? Give me a call at 858.847.0954.

Thanks,

Brian Stokes
Shinei Ni
Suio Ryu Iai Kenpo

[Kusarigama]

Our Website:

http://suioryu-usa.org/

has an translation of an exceptional talk given by Katsuse Soke called "Bu Creates the Man". I recommend it highly to anyone who would like a glimpse into the heart and mind of a long time Koryu practitioner.

In addition, the most recent "Kendo World" has an article written by Antony Cundy, a member of the Ryu, on the history and philosophy of the Suio Ryu Iai Kenpo

I don't have a good copy at this point in time. Perhaps a kind Kendoka will be able to scan and send it to you.

[pgsmith]

Hello David,
Since you have gotten answers to your questions, I've no need to comment in that area. I do wish to ask you as a self-admitted newbie to not form opinions of any kind! By forming preconceptions and opinions based upon your very small amount of data you can be unintentionally insulting, not to mention very wrong. You could also cause yourself to miss wonderful opportunities. Kendo is a definite thing. It is mostly controlled by a single organization with set rules. I can understand your thought that it wasn't for you.

Iaido, on the other hand, is used to refer to a plethora of different sword arts. It is not a definite thing controlled by a single organization. MJER is referred to as iaido, and not. MSR, Sekiguchi ryu, and even Toyama ryu are all referred to as iaido. They are very different sword arts with very different forms. Even Suio ryu is referred to as iai kenpo. Since you are lucky enough to be in an area that has a choice of sword arts, you should have gone and observed and spoken with any of these groups you could. then you would have a better basis on which to judge which dojo would be best for you.

OK, that's my rant for the day!

Cheers,

[Brian Stokes]

Hi All,

Paul recently wrote: "Even Suio ryu is referred to as iai kenpo."

The word "Iai" is not interpreted/defined in the same way by all schools. In the Suio school the "I" means an environment or a threating moment in time which forces the practioner into action. The "ai" signifies the practioner identifying the threat and applying the most effective action, reactive or proactive, to it to achieve their aims. This is a different interpretation than many other schools out there as some are not based in the same theories of movement or combat as others. [Iaido, for example, as defined by Draeger, is entirely devoid of combat intent with only the practioner's ego being the target (to paraphrase).]

"Iai" is not always "Iai."

I heartly agree with Paul when he says that the term "iaido" has become an all encompassing term for the sword arts, even though it is not always applicable to the system being practiced. On one side of the room you have schools in line with Drager's definition, on the other old combat koryu where seeing another opponent at all times is paramount. Lots of flavors in the ice cream shoppe!

I was about to plunge into a discussion of "iaido" vs. "iaijutsu" vs. "kenjutsu" but there are already so many threads on this website regarding this very issue that I won't waste the hard drive space on it.

Hope all have a safe holiday season!

Keiko,

Brian Stokes

[Ralutin]

Hi David,

I wholly agree with Mr. Smith's "rant" and I held back a little in my initial response to you since you already seemed set on practicing Suio ryu.

If you haven't gotten there yet, the 'Links' page of my website lists other iaido schools (that I know of) within Southern California that may be of interest to you. Most of these schools are in neighboring L.A. and San Diego counties, but are worth checking out if you can afford the time and the drive. Here's a direct link to that page:

http://groups.msn.com/scia/links.msnw

Cheers,

[blitz]

Paul, et al...,

The misconception that I was trying to avoid was that my oppinion of Kendo was an objective statement about the quality of the art. It is not. Rather by saying it seemed less "authentic" the conception I was trying to purvey was my own psychological reaction in comparison to my reaction to arts like Suio; to wit Kendo is based on striking certain places on the body, as such the style of combat and kata of kendo would requisite a certain predilection for a more single-minded goal of striking at those points. This is not to say that the art is a 'lesser' MA, that would be a rediculous statement. What I AM saying is that it doesn't appeal to me, for the aforementioned reasons. The different objectives of this Martial system are not bad, but they tastes less life and death, to me. So, my use of the word "authentic" was in reference solely to a state of mind or attitude that I have toward an art, not based on its quality or enjoyability but entirely on my own desires, knowing as I do the visceral desires of my heart, which can be so difficult to put to words. Obviously in this company I am the lesser man, and if my inability to eloquently express myself has been cause for offense I would entirely retract that sentence that marrs my hopefully otherwise acceptable post, and ask that any Kendoka forgive my gross mistatement. My intent was not in any way deragatory, of course.

As to the use of the word "Iaido", I was referring to Muso Shinden Ryu and Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, (MSR, MJER) the two most common schools that practise what I was familiar with as the most common use of the word "Iaido" as an MA. That being, the drawing, use, and replacement, of a blade in a single motion. My "Hangup" if you will, with Iaido is extreme importance placed on meditiation that I have seen in most sessions I have attended. Again, my disclaimer, I'm not saying that extreme meditations is bad, just that it isn't what I'm looking for. I hope this clears some of the things up. Obviously, I'm not really qualified to have oppinions on these schools, but I have to make a decision based on what I understand about them, which is probably where the impression that I was being judgemental came from. I do apologize, and I truly appreciate all of the comments I have received so far.

David Eagle

[T. ALVAREZ]

The Suio Ryu is a Sogo bujutsu koryu from the late sengoku period.
There are many things within the Suio Ryu curriculum that most if not all other Iai schools in the Orange County are don't have.
Being that they are open to the public and willing to allow you to train. I would strongly suggest doing so as the only other school in the area that offers some of the same type of curriculum is private and not open to the public.
Quality instruction as well as a legit 400 year old koryu willing to take on new people is rare in the US at best.

I think that you would be very happy there.


Big Tony

Senpokan Dojo

[Diane Mirro]

Originally posted by blitz
My "Hangup" if you will, with Iaido is extreme importance placed on meditation that I have seen in most sessions I have attended. Again, my disclaimer, I'm not saying that extreme meditations is bad, just that it isn't what I'm looking for.
David Eagle

(Brows furrowed) Meditation?! Scott Sensei, Charles, Emily, you guys NEVER said ANYTHING to me about doing meditation...have you all been holding out on me?!

Seriously--David, I think what you are perceiving as meditation in Iaido is focus and intent. When I do an Iai waza, I am doing my darndest to visualize the invisible opponent. I visualize the opponent's initial decision to attack and the beginning of the attack itself. I visualize the effect of my disabling cut--does the opponent stagger back? Or fall? Or list to the side? Or step backward to safety? I then visualize the effect of my finishing blow--the opponent is motionless for a second or two, then crumbles to the ground. I THEN visualize the possibility that the opponent isn't completely vanquished as I slowly, suspiciously cleanse and resheathe the blade, and step back away from his/her body.

So with all that going on, who could possibly have time for meditation?

[Ric Flinn]

Mr. Eagle,

You sound like you are doing your homework and like you know what you are looking for. I'm sure you will make the right choice for you. As Tony and others have said, finding a legitimate koryu nearby is very rare, and you should consider yourself very lucky for the opportunity.

As for kendo's flaws, I certainly agree that it's very far removed from "real fighting," but consider this: out of kendo, iaido, and kenjutsu, kendo is the only art in which you actually try to strike somebody who's hell-bent on stopping you. I've done all three, and before trying kendo, I definately underestimated it's value. I'm not trying to steer you or anybody towards kendo, just stating that first impressions can be misleading.

[Brian Stokes]

Hi All,

For those interested there will be a Suio Ryu workshop January 17 and 18, 2004 in Grove City, Ohio. Should be about 12 hours of training or so. (I have a tendenancy to go a tad overboard sometimes.) For more info please e-mail Daniel Tackett at hepcity@msn.com.

Thanks,

Brian Stokes


For more information on the Suio Ryu please go to www.suioryu-usa.org

[Budoka 34]

Brian,

Are there study groups or Suio Ryu Dojo elswhere in the U.S.?
I will be in Ohio that weekend and wish I could drop by.

[Kusarigama]

Originally posted by Budoka 34
Brian,

Are there study groups or Suio Ryu Dojo elswhere in the U.S.?
I will be in Ohio that weekend and wish I could drop by.

We currently have Study Groups in the following cities:

Anaheim, California (Also at the University of California, Irvine)
San Diego, California
Providence, Rhode Island
Grove City, Ohio (outside of Columbus, Ohio)
Squim, Washington

Please see our Website for any other information you may need.

http://suioryu-usa.org/