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Thread: how realistic?

  1. #16
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    Talking

    Ujio was played by Henry Sanada? Wow, I didn't even recognize him, and I've seen Shogun's Ninja about a million times. To me, he'll always be Momochi Takamaru! (I guess I am just used to seeing him with the big feathery early 80's hair, and disco dancing...)

  2. #17
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    Someone asked earlier about who did the coreography for the movie.

    The movie's coreographer was a french stuntman whose name i cannot remember at the moment. I do have a newspaper clipping about him that I'll dig up at home. I'll post it when I find it. You see him in Cruise's massacre flashback scenes. He's plays a long-haired male indian who gets shot in the back and falls on his face towards the end of the sequence.

  3. #18
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    Default Re: New info (and a far hope)

    Originally posted by Excalibor
    Hi all,

    I have found this, about Jigen Ryű:

    http://cclib.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/s...pan/jigen.html

    "Founded by Togo Shigekura Bijen-no Kami (1563-1643). Was very estimated by samurais from Satsuma clan. Jigen-ryu fencer prefers attacks, he is ready to destroy the enemy in any moment. One of the most famous master was Saigo Takamori (1827-1877), who was a head of rebellion on Kyushu against Meiji emperor."

    could it possibly be that someone did his homework and we actually watched some waza from this school???

    ah, dreamings...

    laters,
    david
    Answering as someone who has done a bit of time in the Jigenryu Heihosho. No resemblance whatsoever. Its kamae and cutting methods are very unique.

    Hyakutake Colin
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

  4. #19
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    Originally posted by Elf Tengu
    If you read Hagakure, you will see that the kaishaku leaving a flap of skin was an earlier custom that was later abandoned in favour of a clean complete cut, so you're not wrong, it's just the chronology.
    You have me beat there. I have always been taught that head removal was execution. The other of leaving some skin being a Kaishakunins job. That is if he manages to do it right. The angle the cut is taken from and its severity is based on what respect one offers to the person dying. If I remember this bit in the movie they did not offer him much respect. I'll watch it again tonight

    Apart from Kill Bill it came a close second to sword swishing, slashing and saya slamming. Good meaty blades just don't make that kind of noise. I love to pick out the serrated edges on the alumium ones they use that are not edited out.

    Lots of good right hand swinging all round. "Kurashikaru Hariwudowaza" at its best.

    Hyakutake Colin
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

  5. #20
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    If anyone is interested, I've typed out the entire section of Hagakure here that I referred to. It is the paperback version from Kodansha International, translated from the original Yamamoto Tsunetomo by William Scott Wilson and in the section entitled 'From the 8th chapter' and is on pp 125-6.

    ***

    At the time of a certain person's seppuku, when the kaishaku cut off his head, a little bit of skin was left hanging and the head was not entirely separated from the body. The official observer said, "There's some left." The kaishaku got angry, took hold of the head, and cutting it completely off, held it above eye level and said, "Take a look!" It is said that it was rather chilling. This is a story of Master Sukeemon's.

    In the practice of past times, there were instances when the head flew off. It was said that it is best to cut leaving a little skin remaining so that it doesn't fly off in the direction of the verifying officials. However, at present it is best to cut clean through.

    A man who had cut off fifty heads once said, "According to the head, there are cases when even the trunk of a body will bring some reaction to you. Cutting off just three heads, at first there is no reaction and you can cut well. But when you get to four or five, you can feel quite a bit of reaction. At any rate, since this is a very important matter, if one always plans on bring the head to the ground there should be no mistakes."

    ***

  6. #21
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    Hagakure is a difficult document to use as evidence however, for at least a couple of reasons although I would tend to trust the translator:

    1. Yamamoto Tsunetomo related everything in the book verbally to another samurai, who committed it to paper afterwards. He possibly did not even intend it to be written.

    2. Yamamoto Tsunetomo lived some time after the sengoku jidai and whilst he is alleged to have experienced violent confrontations and himself practiced beheading on live convicts, he never took part in any actual battles. Hagakure is accepted to be a virtual manual of what was expected, in thought, word and deed of a true samurai, and was an attempt to preserve values that were already falling into decline at the time the book was written, an inevitable outcome of protracted peacetime and the increased interest in leisure pursuits of the young contemporary samurai class.

    3. The academic study of history has strict rules regarding primary and secondary sources. Even had Yamamoto Tsunetomo written his memoirs personally, they would be considered a secondary source as they would have been written some time after the events he was relating, and in any case most of them were in turn, hearsay and stories that he himself had gathered, as well as opinions that again would be based largely on advice given to him, rather than on his own experience.

    As with Go Rin no Sho and Sonshi though, there is some excellent advice as to how certain aspects of the martial arts should be approached in order to maintain their authenticity.

    The way of the samurai was death.

  7. #22
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    Originally posted by ElfTengu
    The way of the samurai was death.
    And the way of E-Budo.com is to sign our posts with our real names, as stated in the rules.

    If a moderator catches you (I'm not one) -- one warning and then you're outta here.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  8. #23
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    Yes I did a bit of work on Hagakure myself.
    They are rebuilding Saga castle as I type. I can see it from the window. Hopefuly I will have a chance to go in and take some nice shots before they open it up to the general public.

    A little about Hagakure is here. the rest is on my site. Yamamoto made no mention of the methods of such a custom. The description of kaishaku method is additional material based on research.

    "The original manuscript has long since disappeared. Four differing transcripts exist today. There are thirteen hundred aphorisms in eleven volumes that were retranscribed. Some of these have already been translated and printed in the form of books and articles. I have worked on the transcripts of Kurihara Koya who published the Hagakure Shinzui (The Essence of Hagakure) in 1935 and Kochu Hagakure (Interpretation of the Hagakure) in 1940. There are many parts that have not been translated into English yet etc. etc.

    http://www.hyoho.com/Hagakure1.html

    The actual tradition of seppuku and kaishaku varied thorough out Japan as did the removal of bodys parts that were said to prolong the life of ones dying Lord. My information about the whys and wherefores of Kaishaku is actually practicing the movement and learning from Iwata Norikazu Menkyo Kaiden of MJER who has made significant research into its techniques. Also somewhere on the web are recorded eyewitness accounts of such a custom.

    I watched the movie again last night The kaishakunin part was a total hash with "Kiai" and a flick back of the kensen before the actual act. So saying the producer was perhaps trying to over portray a cruel to be kind acceptance of fate as did other parts of the movie.

    Basic techniques of kaishaku can be found here. It differs greatly as one performs a quite service rather than a cut with zanshin.

    http://www.hyoho.com/TosaNanhonme.html

    Hyakutake Colin
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

  9. #24
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    FWIW, Sanada Hiroyuki is also in "Twilight Samurai (Tasogare Seibei)" which is a great flick with two cool scenes involving kenjutsu (and kodachi).

    The martial arts in Twilight Samuria was credited to Onoha Ito Ryu.

    Han

  10. #25
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    Originally posted by ElfTengu
    Hagakure is accepted to be a virtual manual of what was expected, in thought, word and deed of a true samurai, and was an attempt to preserve values that were already falling into decline at the time the book was written,
    Actually, even this is a questionable assertion. The (pre-WW II) Imperial Army, and numerous right-wing types since, did/do hold up Hagakure as a representative model for warrior values, but few scholars would accept that evaluation. The book is the result of a middle-aged samurai writing down what he recalled of lectures and ramblings he heard as a young man. The source of those lectures and ramblings was Yamamoto Tsunetomo, who was at the time retired and living as a hermit, after an unremarkable career as a middle-level bureaucrat. Tsunetomo was a samurai by heritage and aspiration, but he was never a warrior, having been born long after the onset of the Pax Tokugawa. His opinions on proper samurai behavior must, therefore, be taken with a large grain of salt.

    Tsunetomo was a reactionary--not a conservative--railing against the degeneration of ideals he envisioned as governing a long-past age he himself knew only through stories and imagination. His opinions were probably exemplary or representative of those of one element within samurai society, but they were certainly not representative of those of the whole class. They were, in fact, at odds with the mainstreams of thinking on proper warrior values and behavior--as exemplified by his rant against the 47 ronin of Ako.

    Tsunetomo?fs lectures on samurai ideals and behavior were, in other words, roughly comparable to lectures by Ronald Reagan or G.W. Bush on cowboy ideals and behavior.

    He may or may not have known what he was talking about with respect to kaishakunin etiquette. My own best (educated) guess is that the idea of not completely removing the seppuku-ist?fs head was probably more an ideal than a reality--one of those ?gif you really do this right, you can . . .?h sorts of things. At a minimum, severing the spine and most of the neck without cutting all the way through would involve a very specialized kind of sword stroke--especially if it is to be accomplished without getting one?fs blade stuck in the guy?fs neck! Some sword ryuha do, in fact, teach techniques for kaishakunin, but I?fve never seen any of these strokes demonstrated, so I don?ft know if they really do or don?ft aim at only partial decapitation, or how they pull this off (or avoid pulling it off, if you will), if they do. Japanese swords are cutting tools, not chopping ones, so a partial decapitation isn?ft the same as, say, karate punching demonstrations that break some, but not all, the boards or bricks in a stack. In any event, the number of swordsmen capable of this feat running about in Japan at any given time couldn?ft have been very high--which means that the majority of seppuku probably ended with complete decapitation. Even the latter is no mean feat of sword skill, as Mishima Yukio discovered (the hard way) in 1970!
    Karl Friday
    Dept. of History
    University of Georgia
    Athens, GA 30602

  11. #26
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    Sanada Hiroyuki was also "Doson," (the bad guy) in the recent movie "Onmyoji." Heian time period piece, pretty costumes, some bad special effects, but overall, fun stuff. The better actor is Nomura Mansai, his good counterpart, and who was also in Kurosawa's "Ran," though I don't remember him. Basically a pair of shinto-wizards mucking it up with evil spells and possessed princesses and swinging tachis. At least I presume they are shinto since they wear the funny hats, but maybe that was just Heian haute couture. They are definitly doing some fun taoist-derived divination...but what do I know? Don't miss it.

    Onmyoji U.S. site


    Karl Friday wrote:

    Tsunetomo's lectures on samurai ideals and behavior were, in other words, roughly comparable to lectures by Ronald Reagan or G.W. Bush on cowboy ideals and behavior.
    Well, since my family has been ranching since the 1800's...you have no idea how much this line cracked me up. And no, I'm not a yellow-dog democrat (independent, so everyone wants my vote). I'm just betting I've helped fix more windmills than our President has...
    J. Nicolaysen
    -------
    "I value the opinion much more of a grand master then I do some English professor, anyways." Well really, who wouldn't?

    We're all of us just bozos on the budo bus and there's no point in looking to us for answers regarding all the deep and important issues.--M. Skoss.

  12. #27
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    Originally posted by DJ Tucson
    There were only three flaws that got under my skin real bad the rest I can live with and call it a graet movie.

    #1. When you put your sword away there is no need to wake up the rest of the block. No one who knows anything and I do mean any thing slams the sword home, like you are sixteen in the back of Daddys car.

    #2. My understanding is when acting as a "second" you do NOT want the guys head to roll into the next county. The head should re-main in place held by the flap of skin under the chin to not show the death face. Correct if wrong.

    #3 And, last of all, the flip. Tom please save that crap for Extrem MA on Discovery ch.


    All in all, for a movie, what more could you want.

    Well back to work for me. 70 hr this week
    I completly agree that is all I found wrong

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