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Thread: Daito-ryu - Gendai or Koryu?

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Gabelhouse
    The book was purchased by Lyons Press and was edited by George Donahue (previously MA editor from Tuttle) who reads and writes Japanese fluently and is a senior Budoka. George resigned from Lyons and the book lost steam and was sold to Radix Press. It should be on shelves this summer.

    Anyway, as to the issue of the origin of Daitoryu--the truth, according to Hisa-Sensei contains elements of BOTH sides of this e-Budo argument.

    Best Regards,
    Gary Gabelhouse
    Gary,
    When the book becomes available please post the title, etc here. While I don't actively train in DRAJJ anymore I do enjoy collecting the various printed material.

    Take care,

    Mark J.

  2. #77
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    Default Blog of Ellis Amdur

    I have many things to say about this theme.

    BUT first there is an excellent article about that on Aikido Journal.

    http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=1758
    Tomoo Yawata
    Yoshinkan/Aunkai
    Tokyo,Japan

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Gabelhouse
    Hello All,

    I have been a Daitoryu Aikijujitsu student under Kenkichi Ohgami-Sensei for twelve years. Ohgami-Sensei was a senior student of Takuma Hisa. Some years ago Ohgami-Sensei had written the first approved biography of Takuma Hisa (Hisa acknowledged and approved of him doing so while still alive). Over the past few years, we have translated that biography into English as well as Ohgami-Sensei's book on Daitoryu techniques. The biography is based on a number of recorded interviews and also on a sea of correspondence between Hisa-Sensei and Ohgami-Sensei

    Takuma Hisa, having lived with both Ueshiba and Takeda, has some incredible insights on the development of BOTH Daitoryu AND Aikido. Some of the information within this book will cause heart burn for some, and other information is at least 90 degrees different than what has been written by Pranin-Sensei.

    The book was purchased by Lyons Press and was edited by George Donahue (previously MA editor from Tuttle) who reads and writes Japanese fluently and is a senior Budoka. George resigned from Lyons and the book lost steam and was sold to Radix Press. It should be on shelves this summer.

    Anyway, as to the issue of the origin of Daitoryu--the truth, according to Hisa-Sensei contains elements of BOTH sides of this e-Budo argument.

    Best Regards,
    Gary Gabelhouse

    Mr. Gabelhouse,

    Would you happen to know the Japanese title of Ogami's book?
    Josh Reyer

    Swa sceal man don, ţonne he ćt guđe gengan ţenceđ longsumne lof, na ymb his lif cearađ. - The Beowulf Poet

  4. #79
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    Default Tengu Geijutsuron

    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 10th June 2014 at 23:30.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  5. #80
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Hmm...The more things change , the more they stay the same.
    When you combine that mindset and teaching style with the oft seen comment of "I only need one student", then see select people shoot past others, it leaves everyone to wonder:
    1. Just who, was taught what?
    2. Who was taught what,... due to who, was doing what in their own training?
    3. Then who discovered what?

    Here are some cut and pasted comments of Sagawa, discussing all three.

    1. ……..Training must be done EVERYDAY for the rest of your life. That is the meaning of “Shugyo.” No matter how much muscle you think you aren’t using (you’re only misleading yourself.) The true execution of Aiki requires an enormous amount of solo training to condition the body (Tanren). It is not easy to attain. Most people would probably recoil if they knew what my training regimen consisted of…….
    You won’t be able to manifest Aiki unless you continue tanren of the body everyday for decades. You must train the body, ponder and have the techniques “seep out” from the body itself. Even if you train everyday all the while changing yourself, it will take at least 20 years. Ten years or so isn’t nearly enough time. Your body has to truly be ready; otherwise no matter what you do you won’t be able to do “Aiki.”

    On self discovery, not sharing, and waiting for students to “pick up their end of the sheet.”

    2…... I am talking from my own experience. I did not learn this from Takeda Sokaku and I doubt there is another Dojo that will teach you this. At twenty I had built up my body to a beautiful inverted triangle proportion, much like a body builder’s. However this body did not do much for my techniques so I had to change /adjust my training methodology. The training needed to strengthen the parts needed for Aiki is different from “Normal” training. ........It is more important to strengthen the body than seek flexibility. No matter how flexible you make the body there is no point if it is weak. Making the body flexible AFTER you strengthen it is a different story altogether…Strengthening your body will bring about a “sharpness” to your techniques. However, if you are passionate enough you’ll realize what this means, since I drop hints on how to train during our normal practice.

    3....I didn’t teach this myself until a little while ago. I waited for my students to discover this for themselves. “Kitaeru” or “train” means that you must train in a manner that allows you to affect the opponent with minimal effort. If you used 100% of your ability then it means you haven’t really trained. The body must be trained until it is a veritable fortress, then should you body-slam (tai atari) another person bigger than yourself, they will be sent flying.
    4.……. Kimura has been training (tanren) on his own, so his lower back and legs are becoming different than others around him. I don’t often talk about how to train the body, but when I do mention it, Kimura goes out and does it. You can’t stop after two or three years. You must continue this and use it to change yourself everyday for the rest of your life.
    So it is clear that "he picked up his corners" from his early days-he mentiones training solo at seventeen.
    He talks about "self" dscovery above and beyond his teachers input, then clearly states he spent decades -NOT-teaching his true method, just occasionally dropping hints that apparently only a very few picked up on...... to start the process of self discover over again.
    Maybe the more things change-the more they do stay the same.
    Cheers
    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 31st July 2007 at 12:47.

  6. #81
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    About "drawing, but not releasing..."

    My instructor teaches via principle. He expressly explains and demonstrates what it is we are doing, how, and why. We don't learn (t)echniques, per say. We learn the foundations and inherent principles which are within the (t)echniques in order to build our own, personal, (T)echnique. I'm sure he doesn't give his students all the information and tries not to "lead by the hand." But, from my experience with other instructors (including Daito-ryu) he does concede a lot more of the information about training and what it is we are doing than what is being described in the latter part of this thread.

    I don't think this method has jaded me, made me less serious, or adversely affected myself or my training when compared to the "hard" way of trying to "steel" the insights from an instructor who is "drawing the bow."

    In fact, I think it has made my interest and my resolve increase.

    However, I think not letting the cat out of the bag, so to speak, is important. But, there is a balance between withholding information in hopes of fostering "skilled and thinking" martial artists and providing enough of a glimpse in order to light a spark within the student.

    I hope that all made sense...

  7. #82
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    Default Question on Teaching Methods

    A question based on my curiosity and active members' perspectives... (btw I know how to use the search function and I use it often so while this may be repetitive or overlapping with other threads, please excuse my question. You always have the option of not responding to it).

    If a battle (war) was upcoming and a clan/army knew the battle was imminent, why would the teacher of the soldiers (samurai) withhold information that might help the clan win the battle? Given that we are talking about training in "peace time" (if there is such a time), I could understand and even promote the old style of teaching but if war is ongoing or imminent and I was a teacher/trainer/sempai/sensei/student, I would do everything I could to win and train my samurai to win.

    Your comments and answers...thank you

    Regards,

    Andrew De Luna
    Daito Ryu Renshinkan

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky1899
    A question based on my curiosity and active members' perspectives... (btw I know how to use the search function and I use it often so while this may be repetitive or overlapping with other threads, please excuse my question. You always have the option of not responding to it).

    If a battle (war) was upcoming and a clan/army knew the battle was imminent, why would the teacher of the soldiers (samurai) withhold information that might help the clan win the battle? Given that we are talking about training in "peace time" (if there is such a time), I could understand and even promote the old style of teaching but if war is ongoing or imminent and I was a teacher/trainer/sempai/sensei/student, I would do everything I could to win and train my samurai to win.

    Your comments and answers...thank you

    Regards,

    Andrew De Luna
    Daito Ryu Renshinkan
    I may be way off here, but Daito-ryu wasn't exactly a "war time" or "battle field" art, was it?

    And I don't think the heads of the koryu taught, en mass, to legions of soldiers who were about to go out and fight. They taught within their families/clans, on a small scale.

    But, I see where you are going. Why would anyone want to make their students learn something over such a long period of time if they were active soldiers/warriors who would need such skills immediately in order to survive or carry out the orders of their commanders?

    I think the off-hand answer would be that those students, soldiers, or warriors most likely died in battle or were lucky enough to survive and learn from their actions.

    Or, one other answer could be that the teachers who taught in such a way did so during a time when the feudal era of Japan was comming to an end and it allowed them to teach other ideals and hold their students to a higher expectation? A lot of the koryu still taught today probably weren't actively training real, fighting, active soldiers who faught on the battlefield, were they? They may have roots in even older systems that did, but even the koryu today are not what they used to be when the skills learned were being put into regular practice.

    If what was being learned was different back then, it logically follows that how they were taught was also different.

    This is really just speculation on my part, though.

  9. #84
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    Default Probably

    Quote Originally Posted by lucky1899
    If a battle (war) was upcoming and a clan/army knew the battle was imminent, why would the teacher of the soldiers (samurai) withhold information that might help the clan win the battle?
    Yes- think of the context- you get a bunch of people who run the gamut from professional soldiers to conscripted farmers... given the tenor of the times, would you want a bunch of folks who once armed, were knowledgeable about your 'secret' strategies? Too much chance of insurrection.

    It seems to have been the case that every member of a fighting force got some instruction, but for most it was tatamount to 'hold that like that, good, now stab... excellent... let's get marching'. If people came back, they might stand to get more, but social control was the order of the day (particularly in the Sengoku Jidai when killing one's boss to get ahead was pretty common). Just my $.02.

    Be well,
    Jigme
    Last edited by kenkyusha; 1st August 2007 at 22:10. Reason: forgot stuff
    Jigme Chobang Daniels
    aoikoyamakan at gmail dot com

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    FWIW, Sokaku's father, uncle, grandfather, and his primary teachers all fought in various battles/wars. Sokaku himself grew up in Aizu as a youngster playing on the battlefield, even chasing and accusing imperial soldiers of theivery.

    DR Aikijujutsu is known primarily as a self-defense/bodyguarding sort of art however the complete tradition encompasses both koryu battlefield arts, strategy, and self-defense. Therefore there are techniques for defending oneself or one's lord inside the castle, and there are techniques passed down from the Sengoku Jidai as well as more recent empty-hand goshin jutsu techniques. However I think that DR was particularly admired by military officers not for it's many different techniques, but rather for it's inherent strategy, the principles upon which the techniques are based.

    With regard to preparing for battles, I don't think instructors withheld information in the way that is being suggested. Rather I think a principle perhaps more in line with "the need to know" determined what was being shown and practiced.

    I believe the emphasis of training was not on the achievement of high-level, individual skills and abilities so much as trying to instill a "samurai spirit" or "esprit de corps" into the troops. IOW a disciplined, fighting mindset capable and willing to sacrifice oneself for one's lord and/or clan. Because victory for the clan depends more on the ability of the troops to carry out the strategy of it's leaders than on individual skill/knowledge. On the battlefield it's all about determining & seizing the critical moment. It doesn't matter how many footsoldiers know all the okuden or gokui, what matters is that they can maintain their readiness, and follow instructions accordingly.

    Sokaku Takeda taught that even an expert can be defeated by a layman if the expert is negligent. Therefore, it's not the "expertise" that matters most, but rather avoiding negligence and upon recognizing it -- seizing that moment instantaneously.

    A gendai art might be characterized by a certain pursuit of self-realization/mastery, enlightenment, or high-level of individual proficiency, perhaps measured by success in competition or duels. But a koryu art might be described as more pragmatic - in this sense DR would certainly be characterized as a classical tradition steeped more in functional strategy than in aesthetic form.

    Respectfully,

    Brently keen
    Last edited by Brently Keen; 2nd August 2007 at 07:35.

  11. #86
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    I would also like to add that along with emphasis I mentioned in my previous post, I think much of the "technical" training for battles was rather simple tanren training preparing the body right along with the mind. Like Jigme mentioned however, the actual kind of techniques taught were likely rather simplistic (See Heiho Okugisho for examples of Sengoku era drills).

    Brently Keen

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brently Keen
    Sokaku Takeda taught that even an expert can be defeated by a layman if the expert is negligent. Therefore, it's not the "expertise" that matters most, but rather avoiding negligence and upon recognizing it -- seizing that moment instantaneously.

    Excellent concept/thought. We are constantly looking at "perfecting" technique in our practice and using kata based systems to get the body to have muscle memory to complete the necessary movements for defense/attack. But many forget that the study of something as broad as Daito Ryu must be an all encompassing study of the way to always win.

    The way to always win is to not be caught "negligent" as Mr. Keen states. Now, to say you will "always" win is a stretch, but that is the mindset that needs to be resident in the spirit.

    You can learn every technique in the Ryu, but if you do not have the ability to avoid negligence, the techniques become irrelevant and many years of study may have been a study in art not martial arts or ways.

    Anything left out of the teaching may have been to simplify the study and have them hone the few techniques to allow them to be as "perfect" as possible and part of their every movement. Thus giving the student something tangible to use in a confrontation. The development and learning of the exhaustive number of techniques to follow as one became one with each technique.
    Rick Jones
    _____________
    Nichi nichi kore kojitsu
    Every Day is a Good Day!

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Coleman View Post
    a gendai art, but definetly still a combat system.

    If Daito Ryu is 800 years old (?) that would make it older than Tenshin Katori Shinto Ryu, Japan's historically proven oldest extant martial ryu. This would mean that Daito Ryu would have been founded around 200-AD, before the martial culture of the Bushi had risen. Imperial troopers and other fighting men would have been using the Ken (tsurigi) type sword from China (as the tachi shape hadn't been developed as yet), wearing continental type lamellar armour and carrying continental socket type lances and pole-arms. The Heian-era hadn't even started yet.

    The earliest that I've heard that Daito Ryu was established is the 1000's, founded by Minamoto Yoshimitsu. This is usually always touted by Aikido practitioners who try to prove how far back Aikido can be traced.
    n
    I'm afraid your math is wrong when you said an 800 year old art would have been founded around 200 AD. It would actually be closer to 1200 AD, consistent with the other statement about Minamoto Yoshimitsu.
    Richard Berman
    Hakkoryu Jujutsu & Koho Shiatsu Igaku
    Shihan #3362, Hakkoryu International
    www.hakkoryu.com

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