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Thread: Daito-ryu - Gendai or Koryu?

  1. #16
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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 11th June 2014 at 00:17.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Default Mistake

    Sorry guy. Makes the second time I have done this. I thought I was starting a new thread, but the answer was answered anyway I see. Thanks guys. Nathan Scott, good job man! I learn from everybody. Thanks again.
    Tracy Crocker
    Tracy Crocker

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    Smile Thanks for connecting threads.

    You are the man!
    Tracy Crocker
    Tracy Crocker

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 11th June 2014 at 00:22.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 11th June 2014 at 00:23.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 11th June 2014 at 00:24.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 11th June 2014 at 00:24.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 11th June 2014 at 00:25.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  9. #24
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    Nathan,

    I have a quick question regarding a sentence in one of your posts above, reprinted from another source. Here is the quote: "Jujutsu is largely based on sword techniques anyway, and even Ueshiba based much of his tactics and taisabaki off of swordsmanship."

    I distinctly recall reading one of Ueshiba's son's works that his father's Aiki Budo movements/taisubaki were based largely upon spear work, not sword work.

    Am I out in left field on this?

    Jeff Cook
    Wabujitsu

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 11th June 2014 at 00:26.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Nathan, thanks; I'm away from home on Army business. When I get home in August I will check my library for the source of that, and get back with you.

    Jeff Cook
    Wabujitsu

  12. #27
    Samurai Jack Guest

    Question Takeda: creator or not

    There is allot of talk about Sokaku Takeda's role in either creating Daitoryu, being its reviver. A bit of a controversy it has become with the awareness of Daitoryu outside Japan. I personally think those who perpetuate controversy are dangerous and skewing facts, not allowing people to make up there own minds from the facts, and being fraudulent.

    Unfortunately, the issue about Takeda is more of a concern to in Aikido then anyone else. And recently, a revival of the latest attack on Takeda is apparent on a popular Aikido board. If you know the history between the two arts of Aikido and Daitoryu, it seems this latest controversy is part of the go on issue of an off-spring (Aikido) wanting its independence from its parent (Daitoryu) through discrediting the parent. There has been allot said about Takeda, much of it isn't flattering, much of it isn't accurate, or kind. This is due to the published writings of Stevens and other Aikidoka who vocalize harsh criticisms in regard to Daitoryu, which seem to either influence readers toward a campaign to provide greater credit and appeal to Aikido, or reflect the already established dislike for Daitoryu by Aikidokas.

    The new attacks as arguments against Sokaku is not like the past which was directed at Takeda personally, i.e. he was crazy, brutal, criminal etc. to discredit Daitoryu. Now the trend is to rather attack the legitimacy of Sokaku. Mostly, again coming from Aikidoka.

    These type of attacks on Sokaku are easy, for one he is long dead. Second, the time and period he was born. Third, the Japanese culture up until the time of it's cultural change to modernization. Fourth, Takada wasn't a scholar, and possibly was able to read and write to some extent, but not enough to be considered literate, and he was not schooled. Fifth, there has been a past history to discredit Daitoryu and Takeda, that has influenced many against Takeda. For all these reasons and possibly more the demand for what we expect today as proof doesn't exist, other then the word of a man many Japanese noted as the "Last Samurai" , a man who clung to the old traditions, and not likened to modernization. A man who clung seriously to an era and ways that he was born a bit too late, until his death. A man who was out-dated and dislike by his peers and the following generation for his stubbornness to the old ways and not embracing the current ways. A man evidently misunderstood, and thus an easy target to attack. Therefore, it makes it easy for people today to find ways to discredit him.

    Takeda legit or not? I don't know and I don't think it matters to have the answer as much as it is understanding the argument. First of all, Takeda was evidently, a man who walked the walked and wasn't laughed at for his skills. Yet, this is often over-looked when those who say he is the creator of the art, hence a fraud, yet offer no proof. What is offered is speculation as a result of measuring Takeda by today's rules and standards,and what we value in terms to what we consider and important to what is to be of legitimacy ( mostly western), i.e. is Daitoryu Koryu or not?

    Most arguments against Takeda are styled to those who know little about Japanese culture then and now. Thus, tend to lend toward the view Takeda wasn't legit. Those who style arguments against Takeda usually are very well schooled, mostly Aikidoka, in Japanese history and culture. They know well what they write is twisted enough so that their audience ( who has limited knowledge in such matters ) will make logical leaps, and thus easily be convinced of their point of view. The arguments are often very attractive and ride the coat-tails of what is trendy in the martial arts world of controversy. Also such writers are well known and respected in Aikido circles.

    Those who work in these propaganda mills damage more the whole system of legitimacy, breaking it down. They allow for those famous frauds we all know and laugh at to gain more credit. It gives the snake oil salesmen a much broader avenue to sell their snake oil when some like Takeda is taken to task by brow-beating controversy creating Aikidoka who want to fill their dojos, or something.

    I think what matters more with this controversy isn't Takeda reviving or creating Daitoryu, but rather the continual stink Aikido is still carrying on to discredit Daitoryu. What matters is situations like this hurts all matters of legitimacy, and makes it more comfortable for frauds peddle their lies. Pretty soon we will all be in that grey area of legitimacy.

  13. #28
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    Samurai Jack

    Has some "aikidoka" here on this board or thread done so????

    I'm all about fairness and accuracy---but if your not responding to a direct post HERE--on this site, then whats your point?

    You also don't give any specific's as to whom is defaming Takeda, where they are doing so etc.

    I would think that "there" and to "those" people would be more productive than doing it here--where as far as I know its not going on.

    Don't get me wrong, everyone has the right to get things off their chest.

    Just wondering if all that passion and information you have could be put to better use confronting folks directly.

    Like I said, I honestly mean no offense, just my own, un-asked for opinion--- thinking out-loud so to speak.


    Chris Thomas

  14. #29
    Samurai Jack Guest

    Default

    You also don't give any specific's as to whom is defaming Takeda, where they are doing so etc.
    Please click here

  15. #30
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    You are aware that this thread was started

    07 Apr 2000
    Right? Old news...

    Best,
    Ron

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