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Thread: Daito-ryu - Gendai or Koryu?

  1. #31
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    Samurai Jack

    But that's not "here."

    You might wish to focus on the rest of my post.



    Chris Thomas

  2. #32
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    Hello everybody,

    I would like to share a point, made in an article that I v read and that actually made a lot of sense to me.
    The martial arts have a long cultural heritage, lost in the dawn of time. These arts developed, got tested, got improved, got mixed when more they were needed, during the feudal time. So, can we actually talk about 'founder' or 'legit transmission' or people who summed their knowledge and experience into a personal perspective to trasmit it, therefore a sort of 'preservers'. In this case, the 'aiki' is tracked back to the aiki in-you hou, and maybe before then in the nei-cha of the Chinese martial experience. If we assume that Takeda didn't invent anything new but organized some teachings, these went down to Ueshiba who rounded up some corners according to his experience and believes, under him several other students enphasized different concepts making different approaches to their styles and maybe the aikido in 100 years will be different again from the one of today, maybe under other names or claiming other lineages other then Ueshiba.
    Therefore, should't be wondering why so much arguments about lineage and 'legit issues' when martial arts are naturally flowing through the times and generations whethere there are names on a scroll or not.

    Just my opinion thought, sorry if I actually slipped OT.

    Best,
    Shingen

  3. #33
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    Default Forum rules again!

    Make sure you post your real name . The mods may delete your account if you don't. Actually lineage does matter to Japanese and people who train in ryuha, especially koryu. If you just want to learn to fight, lineage may be of limited interest to you; however, many people train for other reasons, a connection to the past being one of them.
    Lurking in dark alleys may be hazardous to other peoples health........

  4. #34
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    There is sooooo much generalism in your post; I almost thought you were trolling er... I meant kidding.

    Let’s look at one or two of your statements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Samurai Jack
    ...the issue about Takeda is more of a concern to in Aikido then anyone else
    Really ? Well I'm "in" Aikido and I couldn't give a hoot personally, none of my students either. Come to that, I haven't heard anyone in the organisation I belong too moan, bitch or whinge about Takeda Sokaku or Daito Ryu.
    Quote Originally Posted by Samurai Jack
    ...it seems this latest controversy is part of the go on issue of an off-spring (Aikido) wanting its independence from its parent (Daitoryu) through discrediting the parent
    Perhaps you might point me in the direction of where and when the current Doshu has made this statement or action. Perhaps you mean someone else or some other organisation with your sweeping "Aikido wanting" statement ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Samurai Jack
    ...to either influence readers toward a campaign to provide greater credit and appeal to Aikido, or reflect the already established dislike for Daitoryu by Aikidokas
    I'm sorry were you referring to me as one of those "aikidokas"? Perhaps you’d like to be a tad more specific.

    The rest I can't be bothered with.

    Your comments would be best served over at aikijournal.

    Regards

  5. #35
    Samurai Jack Guest

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    To address the comment of the link I enclosed as being an out of date thread. I will entertain this idea. I feel the statement of the linked thread being out of date might be implying, and thereby, discrediting my observation that Aikido is the unrelenting impugner of Daito ryu's legitimacy. The thread was started in 2000, and the last current post Sat Feb 04, 2006. The time line of activity indicates a support for my use of that particular Aikido thread as an example of a continuous impugn effort against Daito ryu.
    Concerning the view I have too much general-ism. The reason for the standard general-ism is not make accusations specifically toward individuals, but rather to illuminate the tagging (graffiti). In that way we are not distracted by the insipid sport of name calling, finger pointing, and carrying our hearts on our sleeves. I mentioned John Stevens for a reason, as he is a published author who makes controversial and sweeping generalization that where are are read by the masses. He is a voice, as other publishers and writers that influence and echo the rank and file of Aikidoka thought and attitude, as well as and others. It is the the Aikido corps attitude, the cumulative body of Aikido the continues the unrelenting competitive effort against Daito ryu and Takeda's legitimacy. It is a general feeling that Aikido in general doesn't honor its parent, on the whole. But this isn't what the argument is about.

    I feel Aikido's overall disdain for Daito ryu is an example of the malleable nature of legitimacy, resulting in the ease of constructed legitimacy by the ill-legitimate. If Aikido can be perniciously pound down, put into question, the legitimacy of its parent art then who is to say any art is legitimate? By what standard then is legitimate arts awarded?
    If we look at Daito ryu and say Takeda had no historical connection and he made the art up himself, then who is to say this can't be done by anyone, even those in Aikido?

    If Takeda did create the art solely by himself, then he is a genius! To create 2800 techniques, how ever you slice it, is god-like ( Shinto god like ). How reasonable is that for one man to be that inventive, that cumulative in knowledge especially when Daito ryu is so involved complex and intricate, much-less how long they say it takes to learn and grasp it.

    It would reason, also, Aikido would in turn then have issues with legitimacy as well. Would it not?

    I think a concert effort to see the general effect of accusations and attitude of Aikido toward Daito ryu destroys a larger mechnism. But the Green Eyed Monster never sees clearly.

  6. #36
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    Samurai Jack


    I honestly applaud your efforts to express your feelings, establish your point of view, and get information out that you seem to feel folks around here need.

    But the bottomline is that NO-ONE here expressed the views/view your so upset about.

    This is kinda like me logging on to vent my rage at spinich, horrible plant, sure its "good" for you--everything nasty is "good" for you.
    And people actually LIKE it!!! Can you belive that?
    Moms feeding their kids this nasty plant, people putting it in to soups, stews etc.
    What nerve!
    Anyone ever ASK if we liked that way? Heck no they just do it.

    It would be different if this was site/thread about how great spinich was, or about anyone whom dislikes spinich was somehow "defective."
    Or over how spinich was getting an undeserved "bad rap" etc.

    But its not--so this really is not the place to be logging on to vent my rage at spinich.

    See what I'm getting at here???????

    Like I said, I respect your opinion, its just your ire and angst here is simply misplaced.


    Chris Thomas

  7. #37
    Samurai Jack Guest

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    But the bottomline is that NO-ONE here expressed the views/view your so upset about.
    Hmmm... unfortunately, I wasn't aware of such sensibilities in an Aikijutsu and related koryu forum. My indications where merely engaging a mild, yet spicy round-table matter of those with discerning minds.

    To stay the track, I personally view the collective Aikido to incorporate a pious theme, which hinders the facts. This may have come from Uyeshiba denoting himself with divinity; of course not in the Christian sense, rather the Shinto inception of Kami. Uyeshiba as a possible strategic move toward heightened credibility over Takeda, and to enjoy a greater popularity and fame established for himself devises a definite authoritative tent by means of the long held tradition in Japanese martial arts. By taking the Kami angle as other previous well known martial artists did, Uyeshiba with lesser skill and lesser popularity then Takeda establishes credibility in another ways.
    Uyeshiba, not as well known conflicted with Takeda over Uyeshiba teaching Daito ryu when not authorized too. Uyeshiba's action caught the ire of Takeda, and rightfully so, even by our standards. Teaching without permission, disrespecting ones teacher indicates strongly Uyeshiba formulated early plans to establish himself over Takeda to be the authority of Daito ryu then or at some point in the future. This may have been the root of other well know conflicts between the two. This may be a testament to the legitimacy of Takeda, and Daito ryu.

    If Takeda was the creator of Daito ryu and made it all up himself then it would reason at some point during his tenure of teaching 30,000 plus people all over Japan that someone then would have call him into question, and not in the year 2000. I would think those government agents, police, military, and other influential Japanese at that time would have said something then. It is evident they had greater means and knowledge to expose a lie, if there was one. If Daito ryu and Takeda didn't have historical connections, I doubt the cogent evidence of Daito ryu and Takeda's reputation in Japan, among so many including Uyeshiba to study, and respect Takeda and learn the art would exist. Daito ryu and Takeda left greater influence and impressions on many well known martial artists. It seems Uyeshiba was the only one of a different composition.


    In thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samurai Jack
    Hmmm... unfortunately, I wasn't aware of such sensibilities in an Aikijutsu and related koryu forum. My indications where merely engaging a mild, yet spicy round-table matter of those with discerning minds.
    Again, no disrespect intended but no one in this forum originally expressed opinion about the subject matter you wish to discuss, indeed your opening post didn't really ask for people's opinions, it merely expressed yours based on what other people said *some time ago and importantly, *on another forum.

    and...
    If Takeda was the creator of Daito ryu and made it all up himself...
    Who really cares ? I know I don't, unless of course someone has proof or suspects that Takeda Sokaku was in fact some 'oldie worldie' 10th dan Soke with membership of several hall of fames and got his judan from some Bad/Baffling Budo organisation.

    I'll say it again, your comments would be better served on the forum containing the material you're so passionate about.

    Regards

  9. #39
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    Default origin of Daito ryu

    Mr. Robinson

    Recently in Japan, the Origin of Daito-ryu is a hot debate, but it is rather Daito ryu people themself who are doubting the 2000years history of DR and suggesting that Daito-ryu was invented by Takeda Sokaku.

    In fact the first person who claimed the possibility of Takeda as the creator of Daito-ryu was Sagawa Yukiyoshi, a student of Takeda Sokaku.

    The martial art curriculam of Aizu Clan are investigated, the diary of Saigo Tanomo (Hoshina Chikamasa) are investigated, no sign of Daito-ryu or even a ryu which is related to Daito-ryu.

    There are even doubts about the status of the Takeda family as a samurai as there are no records about a samurai family with the family name Takeda in Aizu clan.

    All these research was done by Daito-ryu people.
    Tomoo Yawata
    Yoshinkan/Aunkai
    Tokyo,Japan

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    Dear Thomas,

    Assuming that Takeda has invented the Daito-Ryu, I would be curious to know on which basis. There is definitely a predominant influence from sword movements, but...what about the ju jutsu side ?.
    There are some people who claims a different lineage called the Takeda Ryu, do you know something more about this ?

    Thanks

    Michael Earnest

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 10th June 2014 at 23:27.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 10th June 2014 at 23:27.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  13. #43
    Samurai Jack Guest

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    CXT,
    I have strong leanings toward the idea that Takeda didn't solely create the art. This is based on his character, his life and life style, personality, and during the time he lived. It has come into vogue to have present generations, who are far removed from the life and times of an individual, to reprove someone like Takeda and place them in the pulp pillory. I can't accredit such a trend, nor advocate such efforts as a means for the truth, but rather a vassal for entertainment, or political positioning. Therefore, taking on a Sherlock Holmes approach then it is easy to navigate toward the most likely and simplest explanation to find the most likely.

    What weight does this carry? It is a directive for evaluation of legitimacy. If you ( sweeping generalization )ignorantly reprove someone such as Takeda, be it from Aikidokas, or whom have you, you impugn upon the whole structure of legitimacy. You throw the baby out with the bath water. The less intelligent and knowledgeable dominate, via rumor, gossip and innuendo dictating legitimacy standards and measures on whims. When over-riding the established means of legitimacy chaos issues, grey areas are no longer grey they are settled as fact. This is the problem.

    Sticking to tradition isn't a bad idea, regardless of the rebellious indict of those who see value in relinquishing tradition. I for one, feel, from time to time it is required to post a reminder of the importance of what has already been established for legitimacy and that it has worked for centuries. I also feel it is important not move toward pulp trends that entertain and amuse upon such vital figures as Takeda. For this reason I feel it is worth the effort to take note, why people should care- those who don't feel threatened by legitimacy or don't have in interest for an art like DR have its legitimacy questioned.
    Last edited by Samurai Jack; 12th February 2006 at 19:09. Reason: Some mechanical errors

  14. #44
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    I was hammering through some of my old Aikido Journals and found the following which maybe of interest:
    Stanley Pranin wrote in a two part article on Takeda titled, "Takeda Sokaku & Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu." From Aikido Journal 1995, vol 22, no. 2, pg. 43, for those who want to reference it. Pranin supports the idea that Takeda had historical connection to the Aizu and DR. Pranin
    I would like to place Sokaku Takeda in historical fact from the many myths these various tales are due to the second-hand and biased nature of information popularly disseminated about Sokaku over course of many years.
    Pranin's broach points to Takeda awarding deshos that are of lenghty advance levels and sophisticated in nature. Something Takeda as an illiterate could not have managed himself, nor something that is without tradition. Pranin
    [Takeda due to his illiteracy] could or would have instigated the compilation of these Daito ryu scrolls or something similar must have existed previously in Aizu, presumably within the Takeda family.
    The densho holds more importance than just a collection of techniques, as illustrated by Pranin. When a densho validity is in question, so it the legitimacy of the holder. For example, Uyeshiba's densho in Yagyyu Shingan-ryu lacks the authenticating seal over the Yagyyu Shingan-ryu branch teacher's name. (Meik Skoss, Aikido Journal 1994, vol. 21, no. 4 pg. 18). We can see that Uyeshiba densho is lacking and cause for concern about his studies in this art. I present this to merely show the importance of the densho and its function to provide legitimacy. Pranin didn't indicate any such errors in Takeda's densho, then it is to reason Takeda had historical connections and didn't solely create Daito ryu.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott
    Mr. Yawata,

    When you say "people in Japan are researching Daito-ryu", I'm guessing you are referring primarily to the people who contribute to Hiden Magazine, since your comments about Daito-ryu in Japan posted to the net seem to mirror the current articles published in the magazine at any given time. Hiden Magazine has had some good articles over the years, but is owned by BAB, and as such has turned into primarily an expensive advertisment - cleverly disguised as a magazine - in order to promote the books and videos they sell, not a scholarly budo research magazine full of scholarly articles.

    Hiden, without fail, has exploitive articles about "aiki" and/or "Daito-ryu" in EVERY issue it publishes. However, the vast majority of contributors on these subjects are either not students of Daito-ryu or are students of students of instructors (not highly initiated in an orthodox branch of Daito-ryu).

    You say that Sagawa Sensei proposed that Sokaku made up the art himself, but he continued to include a lineage in the densho he issued, which listed Saigo as Sokaku's teacher. Sagawa Sensei may have suggested it as a possibility, but that in itself doesn't necessarily mean anything.



    By who? Where did they check? BTW, I'm not sure why people keep talking about "Daito-ryu" in history - the name Daito-ryu isn't going to come up in any historical documents prior to Takeda Sokaku because it didn't exist. Sokaku admitted that he changed/created the name Daito-ryu as part of the "revival" of the art, in which he combined three lines of teachings. So the question is, what was the art called before Sokaku changed the name? Oshikiuchi, Takeda-ryu, Yamato-ryu, or something else? As far as I know, no one has uncovered an absolutely complete or comprehensive list of the vast number of arts that were taught in the Aizu area.

    Anyway, this subject has been discussed at length here and on other forums. I don't mind covering it more, or including elements of other forums if something can be gained from it. When I get a moment, I'll post a link to the previous discussion here.

    Regards,
    Mr. Scott

    With respect I must say that to suddenly criticise my post taking it out from the original context is not fair. Bear in mind that it was a post with the intent to counter argue a person in a thread in which he claimed that recently Aikidoka are trying to attack Takeda Sokaku and Daito-ryu.

    That said you are wrong about the sorce upon which I based my opinion. I don't read "Hiden" magazines regulary and I think have you stated the reason very well.

    For me, the ongoing serial column and essays about the history of Daito-ryu at the "Aiki News (Japanese version which title is now "Do") from Takahashi Ken reveals the most valuable information and discussion.As I assume that you know him, he is NOT an amateur, he is a very renowned martial arts historian about Japanese Jujutsu, and also a 10th Gen Shihan from the Daito-ryu Sagawaha. In other word, I can't find any other person in the world who is more appropriate to do this research.

    Sagawa sensei stated far much stronger statements about the theory that Takeda Sokaku was the creator of Daito-ryu. For example, he said that it was him after becoming "Sohan" (a title created from the word "Soke" and "Shihan") for a short period who went to the library and filled the gap in the succession line in Daito-ryu.

    Takahashi sensei's research has revealed other things. In analyzing martial arts which existed inside Aizu clan (using primary doccuments from the "Nisshin-kan"), he found out that in fact Onoha-Itto ryu failed to establish themself inside the martial arts curricam of Aizu clan.

    It was not Onoha-Itto ryu which become the art of the Matsudaira clan, but rather Mizoguchiha-Itto ryu.

    Other interesting fact is that he could not found a samurai familly in the category in the "Chikata Gokenin (a category between farmers and Samurai)" records in the Aizu clan. Ofcourse that is only one example but very interesting.

    I could go on but it is already a long post. Anyway, it is interesting that Ellis Amdur and Takahashi Ken postulate similar things. That Takeda was not basing his Daito-ryu on one art, but rather merged several ryu's (from both the sword and Jujutsu) and created Daito-ryu.

    Mr. Scott, I think the most objective attitude to marital arts history is to postpone the decision what is historical true until it is back upped from other sources. The most common attitude in east asian traditional martial arts (be it Japanese, Chinese or Korean) is to falsify the origin of the art. This has deep roots in the confucian conception that if something has a more deep historical roots, it is better. As a result it happens often what is called in Japanese martial arts history "Ryuso wo Kataku suru"(to connect the history of a ryu to a well known tradition or a person). Virtually every traditional ryuha do this, so historian only conciders what can be backed upped by other materials as a (possible) historical truth. Other things are just oral history (even if it is written down in scrawls).

    I think although many things are left to disccussions, one of your suggestions that Daito-ryu was created from Swordsmanship & Jujutsu seems to me the most possible thesis ,at least for me (from personal experience and analyzing techniques of Yoshinkan Aikido and to some part Daito-ryu).

    By the way, I am interested why you are interested in the so called "Aiki Inyo Ho". What is the exact information about that in the Aizu clan and Daito-ryu (aside historical accounts from the mainline)?
    Tomoo Yawata
    Yoshinkan/Aunkai
    Tokyo,Japan

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