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Thread: Daito-ryu - Gendai or Koryu?

  1. #61
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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 10th June 2014 at 23:29.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  2. #62
    Samurai Jack Guest

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    It is sad that some feel the need to nip at my heels with slights and covert insults. I guess this is a forum of entertainment for them. Ron Tisdale, I am playing with words. Yet, I guess I asked for it. I knew what I was getting into. I have lurked here for many years because of the twists and turns, name calling, fighting and insults people when they are unable to discuss something. When all the want to do is hear their own prattle. It may explain why the same people post over and over again,and take up residency here. It is a shame when it becomes ghetto Internet. That isn't why I am here. I think that is evident. I am not here to fight. I don't care to fight with a key board, and half-witted insults with people I don't' know or care to know.

    My initial post and those that followed dealt with people (many Aikidoka - de facto ) attacking Takeda and Daito ryu. People saying there are no historical connections ( not pertaining to being a koryu or not ), and Takeda is the sole originator of Daito ryu is not only wrong, but attacks the standards and measures of legitimacy for all. Now, I said this several times in my posts and the failing of some to understand is truly par for this course. I base this on the hundreds of threads here. Therefore, I am not surprised what I said was over-looked, lost in translation, twisted, or simply used for key-board Internet warriors.

    Now someone did disagree with me stating Aikido is incomplete Daito ryu, it was simply an example ( nothing more ) of what another topic might be. I did mention it was an example at the end of the post. It was not intended for here for discussion, as it would cause thread drift. If this is something that interests people to discuss, please feel free to use my example to start a discussion. For that purpose allow me to lend the following, Aikido is incomplete Daito ryu based on the fact Uyeshiba was not instructed beyond the first densho. He didn't receive full accreditation such as Hisa Takuma did with a Menkyo kaiden certificate. He also was limited in the exposure to Takeda unlike others such as Segawa,who didn't get a Menkyo kaiden either. It can be said Ueyshiba learning and training in Daito ryu was incomplete. Or something like that.

    For those who wear their hearts on their sleeves and feel offended by my statement, please keep in mind it was a hallow construct for another point, to another poster, and it was not intend to be a factual statement.

    It seems the residents here wish to get back to their normal programing, I wish not to stop them. Adios.

  3. #63
    Samurai Jack Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by cxt
    Samurai Jack

    Ok, fine, was going to drop it--you helped change my mind.

    The only reason your here is that you came looking for an e-fight--one that we pretty much don't wish to have.

    Despite your feeble attempts to use verbage far in excess of your understanding of them---I will be happy to oblige you for the fight that your so looking for.

    I can only conclude that the main reason your here--bitching, moaning, and whineing about things that happend elsewhere is that you fear to confront them.

    No doubt, you got your butt kicked elsewhere and fear to confront them again.

    Chris Thomas
    WOW, did I miss something! Was there a fight which I wasn't invited, and therefore; didn't show up! When I was lurking and will return too soon after I type this post, such posts would have be rolling on the floor in laughter.

    Because, it is the same thing that happened to me in high school. See this kid wanted so hard to impress and bully others. His failing was he was intimidating enough to pull-off being a school bully. The poor kid tried really hard, in the face of so much laughter. You couldn't take him seriously. Unknown to me, one day, I was suppose to show up after school in the park for a fight with the kid. He had taunted me for several months, I didn't know at the time he was taunting me, the squeaks and crackles in his voice of lamented puberty didn't sound threatening. I guess, the reason for his behavior was he was jealous of me, my voice didn't crack, puberty was good to me. Anyway, paid little attention to him, brushed him off several times, and I guess he got more incorrigible because of that.

    Long story short, I happen to be in school the next day after the so called fight at the park, I knew nothing about. When I saw him, he was upset and looked it. When I asked what the problem was, all I could do is laugh. Reminds me of the same thing here. Sorry Chris, but I didn't know you where looking for a fight. Maybe some other time, somewhere else. I am pretty tired of posting, I don't have the endurance.

    Hey, Ron Tinsdale,

    You know that advice you posted to me, maybe you should do the same for Chris. I don't need it. And Ron, advice in kind, "even monkeys fall out of trees" and "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." Hope this is beneficial, dog.
    Enjoy.

  4. #64
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    The problem is that your "play" only leads to confusion for me. I simply don't get what you are trying to accomplish. I will say, your last post was easier to read than the others.

    I don't believe you are running into a clique problem exactly. I do think that your posts don't fit in very well here, because of your posting style, the factual problems in your posts, and the bias that you bring. I think the bias and posting style issues have been pretty well covered, so I'll speak a little bit to the facual errors.

    Aikido is incomplete Daito ryu based on the fact Uyeshiba was not instructed beyond the first densho. He didn't receive full accreditation such as Hisa Takuma did with a Menkyo kaiden certificate. He also was limited in the exposure to Takeda unlike others such as Segawa,who didn't get a Menkyo kaiden either. It can be said Ueyshiba learning and training in Daito ryu was incomplete. Or something like that.
    There are several problems with these statements. Ueshiba spent many years in close association with Takeda (even living with him for a substantial time). There is an interesting article by Stan Pranin on the certifications that Ueshiba recieved, and how they were equivalent (at the time) to the highest certificate available in Daito ryu. I'm searching for anything available on the web; if I find it, I'll post it for you. It also stresses that the difference between that scroll and the Menkyo Kaiden was about 80 techniques. Ueshiba was certainly instructed beyond the first densho though. That statement is blatently incorrect.

    It's things like this that get you the responses you see here. Don't take it personally...just take it as an opportunity to grow.
    Best,
    Ron (judging from the post I just read before this one, this monkey is falling out of this tree now...been trying to be nice...but apparently not worth it)

  5. #65
    Samurai Jack Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Tisdale
    The problem is that your "play" only leads to confusion for me. I simply don't get what you are trying to accomplish. I will say, your last post was easier to read than the others.

    I don't believe you are running into a clique problem exactly. I do think that your posts don't fit in very well here, because of your posting style, the factual problems in your posts, and the bias that you bring. I think the bias and posting style issues have been pretty well covered, so I'll speak a little bit to the facual errors.



    There are several problems with these statements. Ueshiba spent many years in close association with Takeda (even living with him for a substantial time). There is an interesting article by Stan Pranin on the certifications that Ueshiba recieved, and how they were equivalent (at the time) to the highest certificate available in Daito ryu. I'm searching for anything available on the web; if I find it, I'll post it for you. It also stresses that the difference between that scroll and the Menkyo Kaiden was about 80 techniques. Ueshiba was certainly instructed beyond the first densho though. That statement is blatently incorrect.

    It's things like this that get you the responses you see here. Don't take it personally...just take it as an opportunity to grow.
    Best,
    Ron (judging from the post I just read before this one, this monkey is falling out of this tree now...been trying to be nice...but apparently not worth it)
    Sorry Ron, it was an example of what people might discuss some place else. A gross example. A general example. A feeble construct. Something not intended to be discussed here.

    Also, the only problem I have with Pranin sometimes, is simply he is the only researcher and or journalist on this subject who writes for non-Japanese. It would have been nice to have several others like Pranin doing the same work. Get a different angle on things.

  6. #66
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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 10th June 2014 at 23:29.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Tisdale
    (judging from the post I just read before this one, this monkey is falling out of this tree now...been trying to be nice...but apparently not worth it)
    Just so you don't start to signifying

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    With my luck, I'd probably sound like Little Kim....

    R

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Tisdale
    With my luck, I'd probably sound like Little Kim....

    R
    If you looked like her, we wouldn't mind. Even in the standard issue orange jumpsuit she's currently wearing....

    But more seriously, is Grandmaster Flash an inheritor, a reviver, or a founder? Kicking it koryu style.....

  10. #70
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    Arts don't appear from a vacuum. They have to build on the shoulders of predecessors. After reading from various sources, and experiencing a bit of practice, I'd lean toward believing that S. Takeda was incorporating quite old and established principles into his contemporary interpretation and "re-invention" of the system(s) he came up in. This is a natural process for creative people.

    What he formed from his foundation and genius would be gendai if given a name and packaged as a system. But anyone who knows what they're looking at - or experiencing - would recognize koryu.

    The borders of these areas are gray and fuzzy. Sometimes they don't warrent splitting hairs. Call 'em as you see 'em.
    Cady Goldfield

  11. #71
    Samurai Jack Guest

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    One last indulgance-last call before this bar fly goes home.

    An experienced eye, is very valuable in the martial arts. A martial arts "secret wasa." Being able to recognize, to be able to distinguish, based on a strong background and proper training allows provides a crystal clear picture. Yet, so many are subjected to weak instruction, poor training, and most of all balderdash they never get the chance for a crystal clear picture. But instead, they get a foggy picture that is undefined and inaccurate. Thus, how they interpret what they see is just as fallible. It should not be that way for them. Looking with an eye of experience at Takeda and understanding his world of martial arts a person has a greater chance of understanding Takeda, or someone like him.

    Stanely Pranin was the first person I know of who mentioned that Takeda was the creator of his art. If you go back to my other posts you will find the article I referenced which mentions that in AJ 1995. Stanely Pranin more recently again mentions his belief in his own forums. The posts that followed where authored by Aikidoka and friends of his agreeing with Stanely's idea. I am not sure if this is Stanely's idea, and if not I don't know where he acquired it. In either case, Stanely merely make a neutral mention of it. He doesn't make mention of it being detrimental or advantageous. My observation is, Stanely's thoughts have turned into a telephone/internet game. It seems people seeing Takeda in a fog, have found a new bone to pick. But, those with substantial experience and clear understanding of Japanese martial arts, Koryu in particular, see assurances in Takeda’s claims that affirm he was not the only one behind Daito ryu. Of course Takeda wasn’t the type of man to focus the credit on himself for his contributions to the art. Otherwise he could have easily said, “ I created it all.” Who would have deigned him of that claim when he was alive?

    The sophisticate martial artist (SMA) will be inclusive in a broad scope of information. The SMA will not take one statement as fact. The SMA withholds snapping at a judgment and critically observers all conditions. The SMA puts up what he hears or reads against their own eye of experience for evaluation. Those who like scuttlebutt, and engage in parlor games delight in fancy possibilities, as the most common and likely give way to boring factual and bland conversations that don’t excite the imagination, nor lend to their ruse.

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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 10th June 2014 at 23:30.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  13. #73
    Samurai Jack Guest

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    Nathan, to answer you question, I don't know. I didn't realize it wasn't a rhetorical question. You are right not all of them are Aikidoka, you posted differently then others. T'is, the reason I started posting because simply, I agreed with what you said, and didn't agree with the majority.

    Nathan, you have touched on something interesting about Takeda
    If Sokaku was someone trying to fabricate a samurai lineage through the Takeda clan, calling his art Takeda-ryu would have been a better move for furthering an unfounded claim to such legitimacy.
    It would then reason, if this was true, that Takeda was fabricating samurai lineage, he was also be fabricating himself as a samurai. I find this highly unlikely, due to documentation and those he trained including Ueyshiba so said, that it was Takeda that taught him Budo. Ueyshiba, Kitaro, Segawa, Takuma, and thousands of others like police, government, and especially the military, and a judge that he was brought in front of, didn't doubt Takeda's lineage. Yet, today, Aikidoka do!?!?!

    For those wondering, the reason I pointed out that the posters that followed where Aikidoka ( mainly )was to illustrate that no Aikidokai ( at the time I read what S. Pranin suggested ) asked S.Pranin questions of what he said about Takeda; who, what why, and where. That includes me, but I don't post there. It would have been very informative if S. Prainin would have said how he came to believe Takeda was the sole creator after he mentioned it on the net. He didn't for what ever reason. The following posters didn't seem concerned to question S.Pranin's speculation about Takeda, and though some posters supported S. Pranin's notion about Takeda. I am indicating, rather simply, where I think the notion of Takeda as being the sole creator of Daito ryu came from, and how it manifested it's self into the telephone game of misinformation. A situation that was demonstrated in this and the other AJ thread.

    I don’t know why many Aikido didn't shun the notion of Takeda not being the sole creator, due to the climate it would be advantagous. I understand the power Stanley Pranin's words that influence so many Aikidoka. But, I would have guessed it would have been beneficial to Aikidoka to dismiss S. Pranin's notion about Takeda considering the document dissonance that has exist between Aikidoka and Daito ryu and Takeda for so many years.

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    Hi all,

    If Sokaku Takeda was not the originator of Daito Ryu then did his teacher not transmit the art to any one else? Or wider transmission in the prior generation? Is there any evidence of this?

    I do not subscribe to the view that he created the entire Daito Ryu curriculum, nor that he inherited it whole, but it is facinating debate.

    Cheers
    Julian Bever

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    Default Takeda & Daitoryu: From Takuma Hisa

    Hello All,

    I have been a Daitoryu Aikijujitsu student under Kenkichi Ohgami-Sensei for twelve years. Ohgami-Sensei was a senior student of Takuma Hisa. Some years ago Ohgami-Sensei had written the first approved biography of Takuma Hisa (Hisa acknowledged and approved of him doing so while still alive). Over the past few years, we have translated that biography into English as well as Ohgami-Sensei's book on Daitoryu techniques. The biography is based on a number of recorded interviews and also on a sea of correspondence between Hisa-Sensei and Ohgami-Sensei

    Takuma Hisa, having lived with both Ueshiba and Takeda, has some incredible insights on the development of BOTH Daitoryu AND Aikido. Some of the information within this book will cause heart burn for some, and other information is at least 90 degrees different than what has been written by Pranin-Sensei.

    The book was purchased by Lyons Press and was edited by George Donahue (previously MA editor from Tuttle) who reads and writes Japanese fluently and is a senior Budoka. George resigned from Lyons and the book lost steam and was sold to Radix Press. It should be on shelves this summer.

    Anyway, as to the issue of the origin of Daitoryu--the truth, according to Hisa-Sensei contains elements of BOTH sides of this e-Budo argument.

    Best Regards,
    Gary Gabelhouse

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