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Thread: Gun control=Genocide

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    Default Gun control=Genocide

    You can read this excellent article,by David Kopel, titled "Hitler's Conrtol," here




    Writing in The Arizona Journal of International & Comparative Law Stephen Halbrook demonstrates that German Jews and other German opponents of Hitler were not destined to be helpless and passive victims. (A magazine article by Halbrook offers a shorter version of the story, along with numerous photographs. Halbrook's Arizona article is also available as a chapter in the book Death by Gun Control, published by Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership.) Halbrook details how, upon assuming power, the Nazis relentlessly and ruthlessly disarmed their German opponents. The Nazis feared the Jews — many of whom were front-line veterans of World War One — so much that Jews were even disarmed of knives and old sabers.

    The Nazis did not create any new firearms laws until 1938. Before then, they were able to use the Weimar Republic's gun controls to ensure that there would be no internal resistance to the Hitler regime.

    The Nazi disarmament campaign began as soon as Hitler assumed power in 1933. While some genocidal governments (such as the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia) dispensed with lawmaking, the Nazi government followed the German predilection for the creation of large volumes of written rules and regulations. Yet it was not until March 1938 (the same month that Hitler annexed Austria in the Anschluss) that the Nazis created their own Weapons Law. The new law formalized what had been the policy imposed by Hitler using the Weimar Law: Jews were prohibited from any involvement in any firearm business.

    Despite having an extremely powerful army, the Nazis still feared the civilian possession of firearms by hostile civilians. Events in 1943 proved that the fear was not mere paranoia. As knowledge of the death camps leaked out, determined Jews rose up in arms in Tuchin, Warsaw, Bialystok, Vilna, and elsewhere. Jews also joined partisan armies in Eastern Europe in large numbers, and amazingly, even organized escapes and revolts in the killing centers of Treblinka and Auschwitz. There are many books which recount these heroic stories of resistance. Yuri Suhl's They Fought Back (1967) is a good summary showing that hundreds of thousands of Jews did fight. The book Escape from Sobibor and the eponymous movie (1987) tell the amazing story how Russian Jewish prisoners of war organized a revolt that permanently destroyed one of the main death camps.

    No one can foresee with certainty which countries will succumb to genocidal dictatorship. Germany under the Weimar Republic was a democracy in a nation with a very long history of much greater tolerance for Jews than existed in France, England, or Russia, or almost anywhere else. Zimbabwe's current gun laws were created when the nation was the British colony of Rhodesia, and the authors of those laws did not know that the laws would one day be enforced by an African Hitler bent on mass extermination.

    One never knows if one will need a fire extinguisher. Many people go their whole lives without needing to use a fire extinguisher, and most people never need firearms to resist genocide. But if you don't prepare to have a life-saving tool on hand during an unexpected emergency, then you and your family may not survive.

    In the book Children of the Flames, Auschwitz survivor Menashe Lorinczi recounts what happened when the Soviet army liberated the camp: the Russians disarmed the SS guards. Then, two emaciated Jewish inmates, now armed with guns taken from the SS, systematically exacted their revenge on a large formation of SS men. The disarmed SS passively accepted their fate. After Lorinczi moved to Israel, he was often asked by other Israelis why the Jews had not fought back against the Germans. He replied that many Jews did fight. He then recalled the sudden change in the behavior of the Jews and the Germans at Auschwitz, once the Russian army's new "gun control" policy changed who had the guns there: "And today, when I am asked that question, I tell people it doesn't matter whether you're Hungarian, Polish, Jewish, or German: If you don't have a gun, you have nothing."
    Aaron J. Cuffee


    As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.
    - H.L. Mencken

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    Man that is in Bad taste - are you trying to equate US Gun Control with the Holocaust?

    If you want to own a Gun that's fine. Don't foist this drivel on us though, it is insulting to the victims of that terrible event.

    Not doubt I will be Flamed by gun owners but before you do, think about it............
    Mat Rous

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    Originally posted by Maro
    Man that is in Bad taste - are you trying to equate US Gun Control with the Holocaust?

    If you want to own a Gun that's fine. Don't foist this drivel on us though, it is insulting to the victims of that terrible event.

    Not doubt I will be Flamed by gun owners but before you do, think about it............
    No flaming. I'll just point out that the article I posted was written by a Jewish American, who in no way equated the Holocaust with US gun control,but pointed out that, historically, gun control is one of the precursors to such atrocities-which are not exclusive to Europe, Germany or Jewish people. He supported his case with historical facts, and cites numerous sources-some of them Jewish and Israeli as well, that point to the fact that the means of resistance had been stripped away before Holocaust was perpetrated,and that when resistance did take place, it was hardly "futile," in spite of the German miltary's superior numbers and firepower.



    The very reason the U.S. Founding Fathers included the 2nd Amendment in our Bill of Rights-as I've said time and again-was to facilitate the ability of the U.S. citizenry to resist governmental tyranny with force.
    Last edited by elder999; 4th February 2004 at 22:29.
    Aaron J. Cuffee


    As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.
    - H.L. Mencken

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    Maybe, but the Thread Title doesn't mention it does it?

    I also did not mention it was futile. I am well aqquainted with Sobibor and the Warsaw Uprising.

    Not wanting this to segue into the other Gun Control threads, let's discuss a different slant:

    Do you not think that society is fundementally different to when the Amendments were created? Is it not possible that one of the founding fathers, if he was still around today, would regrtet some of the decisions they made?

    How long should something remain sacrosant?
    Mat Rous

  5. #5
    dave501 Guest

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    "How long should something remain sacrosant[sic]?"

    The right to protect yourself from the government should be sacrosanct forever. Don't ever become complacent (this is a MA board, that should go without saying). When will freedom of the speech, press, & assembly be passe? Cruel and unusual punishment?

    Society is now different then it was back then, but it is because of our rights. If you take them away, we will regress (and we definitely will) to a society that our forefathers were fighting against.

    Which of the bill of rights amendments would you get rid of besides the 2nd? It was put as #2 for a reason - they didn't arbitrarily create them.

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    Mekugi Guest

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    The Constitution is a document to live by, Zolio.

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    The constitution as a "living document" is a lie spread by socialist/communist political activists in the last 40 years. It is pure BS designed to strip away rights one at a time until you have none at all. Once you have castrated the populace you can basically screw them over in any way you please.

    And if history teaches us anything it is that human society has not changed the slightest bit for thousands of years. We just have better toys now.

    Harvey Moul

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    Of course, of all the antecedent factors that led to the Nazis taking power and the subseqent purges had nothing to do with it. It was all because there were no guns.

    You seem to be overlooking more governments with disarmed populations do not in fact kill their populations. One country doesn't make a trend.
    Iain Richardson, compulsive post-having cake eater-wanter.

    "He shoots first who laughs last."
    - Alexsandr Lebed,

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    It is not just one country, as has been listed on this site numerous times. The laundry list is extremely long, and if is shows anything at all it shows that once a government has disarmed its citizenry it eventually begins to kill them in large numbers. Remember, the difinition of a government is any organization that reserves for itself the right to kill its members without retribution.

    Gun control is about controlling people, not about making anything safer.

    Harvey Moul

    Fish and visitors stink after three days - Ben Franklin

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    Gun control is about controlling people, yes. But so are prisons, taxes, voting, heirarchy, legislation in general, and pretty much every other thing any large social grouping undertakes. You say it like it's dirty. It's just a fact of life.

    And governments are mandated to exercise coercive force only through whatever means they use to achieve and maintain legitimacy. If that's democratic, then they cannot -in theory- maintain that legitimacy unless they represent the larger portion of the population. More westernized nations have not taken a shine to killing their citizens en masse than have.

    Sure, guns might work as a last ditch effort to repel a weak despotic state, but firstly they are not going to work against any well established state repleat with a full suite of oppressive mechanisms, and secondly, there are a whole host of societal and material delimitors surrounding the emergence of a totalitarian state that are going to rob you of your ability to resist long before they finally get around to taking away your guns.
    Iain Richardson, compulsive post-having cake eater-wanter.

    "He shoots first who laughs last."
    - Alexsandr Lebed,

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    Bruce R. Wayne Guest

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    USA! USA! Howard Dean touches my bottom!

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    Well I've looked down the back of the sofa, I've checked under the bed. I've even rummaged through the cupboard under the stairs ... yet I can't find this genocide anywhere!

    According to some of you pro-gunners, i should be up to my eyeballs in dead bodies from where the government has decided to kill off people it doesn't like.

    Yet i live in a diverse multi-cultural society where people of every different creed, colour, religion and nationality live together in relitive harmony.

    On a personal leveli find it repulsive that through your arguements some of you are equating my country with Nazi Germany which we battled alone in Europe for many years to stop.
    Huw Larsen

    Number 1 member of the Default Collective of Misfits

  13. #13
    Mekugi Guest

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    Remember that Saddam Hussein fellow and what he did to the Kurds?

    People die all the time. You aren't up to your eyeballs in them, right?
    few cents...

    Originally posted by larsen_huw
    Well I've looked down the back of the sofa, I've checked under the bed. I've even rummaged through the cupboard under the stairs ... yet I can't find this genocide anywhere!

    According to some of you pro-gunners, i should be up to my eyeballs in dead bodies from where the government has decided to kill off people it doesn't like.

    Yet i live in a diverse multi-cultural society where people of every different creed, colour, religion and nationality live together in relitive harmony.

    On a personal leveli find it repulsive that through your arguements some of you are equating my country with Nazi Germany which we battled alone in Europe for many years to stop.

  14. #14
    Mekugi Guest

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    Yeah, firearms do work against an oppressive state. Athens, Georgia is a prime example.



    Originally posted by Iain
    Gun control is about controlling people, yes. But so are prisons, taxes, voting, heirarchy, legislation in general, and pretty much every other thing any large social grouping undertakes. You say it like it's dirty. It's just a fact of life.

    And governments are mandated to exercise coercive force only through whatever means they use to achieve and maintain legitimacy. If that's democratic, then they cannot -in theory- maintain that legitimacy unless they represent the larger portion of the population. More westernized nations have not taken a shine to killing their citizens en masse than have.

    Sure, guns might work as a last ditch effort to repel a weak despotic state, but firstly they are not going to work against any well established state repleat with a full suite of oppressive mechanisms, and secondly, there are a whole host of societal and material delimitors surrounding the emergence of a totalitarian state that are going to rob you of your ability to resist long before they finally get around to taking away your guns.

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    Originally posted by Mekugi
    Remember that Saddam Hussein fellow and what he did to the Kurds?

    ...
    Remember that Tony Blair fellow and what he hasn't done to us?

    Banned most guns back in the mid 90s and i'm yet to see much ethnic clensing or genocide going on here.
    Huw Larsen

    Number 1 member of the Default Collective of Misfits

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