John J. Williams/ Saigo-ha DR

[Trell]

I have found a few pages that were discussing Aiki and shinto, and that shinto was based upon aiki principles. I was wondering if there is any connection between the two. I have a web page that had some info on them, if anyone wants to check it out.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8871/aiki.htm



Kevin Canali

[Brently Keen]

The whole website in question as well as the premise on that page is pure nonsense, IMHO.

Don't believe everything you read out there, folks.

Brently Keen

[Nathan Scott]

Mr. Canali,

The page you posted is part of a web page by John J. Williams of Saigo-ha Daito ryu up in Canada, who's credentials (as listed on his extensive geocities page) are as follows:

(Doctorate of Divinity)
Legally Ordained Baptist Minister
Founder Logitarian Christianity
High Priest of the Interi Shinto Sect.
Inheritor of Saigo Ha Takeda Ryu ( Daito-Ryu )
9th dan - Daito-Ryu 10th Dan Shito-Ryu Karate Do
10th Dan Shinto-Ryu Aiki Bujutsu
7th Dan Kuniba Ha Shito-Ryu Karate Do (FAJKO)
3rd Dan Kodokan Judo
Member World Head Founders Council
Inducted World Head founders Council Hall Of Fame
World Record Holder for breaking untreated ice with bare knuckle punch
Judo, Karate and Kickboxing Champion
Canadan Weighlifting Record Holder
Began martial arts training in 1947
Golden Gloves Boxer
Former Police Officer
Certified Police Instructor
Founder Nation Of Acadian Metis (Indian Movement)
Native American Activist
Eastern Woodland Indian

**

That's a pretty unbelievable list of credentials, eh?

Anyway, research instructors carefully, and try to cross reference things like this information on a Shinto/Aiki connection before adding them to your notebook.

Not the first time Mr. John J. Williams' name has made it on this forum...

Hope this helps,

[MarkF]

The last time (a few months ago) I ran into a John Williams site, he was still pedaling his grandiose tapes, claiming to make a daito ryu aikijujutsu master out of anyone, by purchasing said tapes. And they have enormous price tags.

One other such practitioner of aikibujutsu told me in email what Brently is holding back.

Don't hold it in, Brently. Sometimes you are far too kind.

Mark

[glad2bhere]

Dear Kevin:

To answer your original question there are relationships among various Japanese arts and Shinto which have been the source for quite a few spirited discussions on this and other Nets. However, the particular source you cited ain't one of them. If you are interested, AIKIDO JOURNAL.com has one or two strings right now regarding Shinto in its "philosopy" category, FWIW.

Best Wishes,
Bruce W Sims

[Trell]

I had come into a few pages not just this Williams freak, but unfortunatly the only one I could readily find at that time was his. I appologise for not fully investigating the link, but was merely curious about shinto connections, as i was interested in the religion. I thank you Bruce for the info and am going to go to the site and read up about it. I promise I will do some more investigating before I post here, just got excited and lost the url of the real pages I found out there.


Kevin Canali

[MarkF]

Hi, Kevin,
You can always investigate here. Most are quite helpful and are glad to help, so don't think you can't post your "wonderings." Williams, as Nathan said, just struck a nerve so don't worry about it. Ask away.

Mark

[Nathan Scott]

Yeah, what Mark said.

I was basically trying to not say anything bad about Mr. Williams in my response (which wasn't easy), but feel free to post (tactfully) any Aikijujutsu related questions here.

Sometimes you need to look between the lines when discussing people publicly.

Regards,

[Brently Keen]

Mark F,

Chuckle, chuckle. Snort! Hmmm. Heh heh heheheh! W'wh'who oooh wh'wh'whoah hahahahahaha ha ha hack hmph! Hehehehe aaachk, aah ah, cough, whoof! Wha haha hahaha haha hee hawhaw haw, hooowie, smooowie woo!

LOLOLOLOL!!!!!

Nope, you're right. I can't hold it all in, I'm laughing so hard, my stomach's all broken up.

But seriously, if anyone would like to send me some video of this Grand Master, World Head Founders Hall of Famer in action, I'll trade you any tape of authentic Daito-ryu or other koryu kenjutsu I have in my library. I'd like to add the Native American, Shinto-Baptist, High-Logitarian, Soke-10th dan Priest to the comedy section of my video library. Just email me.

Brently Keen

[Neil Yamamoto]

Perhaps I shouldn't post this.

Maybe I should.

It is late Friday night and I just came home from a friend's bar and had 3 Jameson's 1780 Irish whiskies.

What the smeg...

I have read the stuff in the site a few times. It is very interesting ( as in the Artie Williams Laugh In German solider peering through bushes "very interesting")

IMHO, Mr Williams has much in common with most of the exagerations claimed for hapkido. A very active imagination. While I think hapkido is a good martial art, I think most of the claims made degrade the art. This whole Saigo ha claim I believe is false and impact Daito Ryu in the same fashion. I am willing to be proved wrong. I think I have a long wait to be proved wrong.

Nathan, If I am too blunt, please feel free to delete me on this. For some reason, I feel possesed by a tengu and my fingers are not in complete control of what I type. Perhaps I am being possesed by Toby.

[glad2bhere]

Dear Neil:

Thanks for your thoughts --- alcohol-induced or otherwise.

Hapkido, indeed, is in a lot of trouble, and individuals such as the one cited are not helping things. I have some strong feelings about this topic, but it seems as though the overall tendency in this art is to follow the pattern of Nin-jitsu, and we all know where THAT has gone. For every individual who is working hard to maintain high standards, authentic curriculum and sound business principles (where they apply) there seem to be dozens of Bozos who trade in the fantasyland version of this art. In such a fantasyland one is exposed to information but does not study it, wears a uniform but avoids getting it dirty, and learns technique without learning breakfalls. In short, the illusion of gain without the reality of pain. The original "something for nothing". Needless to say, this is not an aspect of my art that I am very proud of.

I hope people will continue to question individuals who operate under the aegis of teaching Hapkido and press them to authenticate or at least validate their credentials to teach.

Best Wishes,

Bruce W Sims
http://www.midwesthapkido.com

[Nathan Scott]

Good points Neil.

The Saigo-ha is interesting, because on one hand there is a slim chance that their lineage is ligit. But since they use assumptions and unvarifiable claims to support their position, it does not feel very believable.

But more importantly, I think that the ligit experienced Daito ryu exponents might be evaluating it from another perspective as well: that of technique and theory.

Saigo-ha appears to me to use very Aikido-like techniques from standing, and the DR characteristic complicated limb pins using the legs to secure uke. These methods could have been adapted from text published privately by the Takumakai, which has some similar techniques, or any other number of sources. The Saigo-ha has several younger instructors who publish quite a few books (in Japanese) teaching these techniques and theory openly, which is also a little strange.

From what little I've seen of Saigo-ha, I can't say that the level of their performance has overwhelmed me, either.

Historically it was my understanding that Tanomo Saigo (of whom they credit their transmission) had taught/known "oshikiuchi", which I believe to be different than this kind of technique.

Anyway, while the Saigo-ha claim is possible, their actions and methods do not appear to corraborate their claims from my limited point of view.

Regards,

[Neil Yamamoto]

Hi Bruce and Nathan,

After reading what I posted in the light of soberity, I actually made sense.

I have no problem with what this group teaches, free world and all that. What I do disagree with is how they try and present their lineage to claim Daito ryu lineage. As to skill level,I have yet to see anything in the Saigo-ha that impresses me as being of any high level of skill. Granted, it has only been through books and a brief video clip, but I have yet to see anything that shows anything beyond basic skills that would be expected in a shodan-nidan level.

As to what they teach, you hit it on the head with my thoughts, kind of a cocktail of martial arts. One measure of aikido, one measure of Takumakai daito ryu, add a hint of generic jujutsu, shake well serve with Japanese culture to complement the flavor of the cocktail.

Wanna go to Canada anyone? Play tourist and drop by a dojo or two to see what is really going on?

Neil

Hi guys,


Seen it. Bwaaaa haaaa haaaa .... snort!

I especially like the way Dr Priest Chief John Williams struts around the dojo with a red & white striped belt on but NEVER actually steps on the mat. Never!

You could get hurt out there!

Neil, I just wanted to taste some whisky so I only possessed you for a minute or so.

Tobs

[Brently Keen]

Folks lets not confuse the Saigo-ha Daito-ryu group in Japan that Stanley spoke out against. Yes the ones that put out all those Daito-ryu Aikibujutsu A-Z videos and books, and the website in question here. Soke Grand Poohbah Dr. John J. Williams, who also uses the name Saigo-ha among many others.

There is very little chance (I'd say none) that the Japanese Saigo-ha group is legit. The guy might be a good martial artist (jujutsu/aikido) though. I know people who've trained with him some say he's very good, but his story is full of holes - it's not just a matter of no documents to prove his claims, it's a matter of one day saying one thing and several times later changing that story. It seems to me that he may have a lot of aikido experience combined with some jujutsu, I've even heard that he attended some of Tokimune's seminars and/or learned briefly from someone in the Takumakai.

The Canadian on the otherhand is not even worth mentioning further.

Brently Keen