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Thread: Daito-ryu

  1. #46
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Mike writes:
    Unfortunately this is becoming more about Aikido then it is Koryu,

    but I admit there is a correlation.

    Knowing how to classify Aikido makes it possible to classify Koryu that have similar features.

    ***********************

    WOW


    deleted.................

    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 3rd June 2001 at 14:24.

  2. #47
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    Default Working definition of aiki

    My working definition of aiki, which I'll use until I learn better is:

    Techniques that can be performed with a largely resisting uke (like most judo throws) do not require aiki. I don't mean throws that work from combinations or counters. This is more like an o-goshi pick-him-up-and-toss-him type throw.

    Techniques that can only be performed when uke provides most of the effort, and do not work when uke actively resists the technique (as in a lot of aikido kokyu-nage throws) are aiki. A lot of the 'leading' kokyu-nages fall into this category.


    Of course, judo throws work better if you can convince uke to help throw himself, and some aikido throws can be made to work with resistant ukes.

    It's a crude definition but it helps me understand aiki (vs. ju).

    Peter
    Peter Claussen

  3. #48
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    Peter,
    Aiki can be applied whether an opponent is resisting or not. And, aiki is all about "ju"!
    Cady Goldfield

  4. #49
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    Hi Mark-san,

    I don't know if "jigotai" is the best term to use in regards to aikido. Mainly because those that are familiar with it will surely associate the term with the diagonal "horse stance" commonly seen in Judo. But anyway, I know what you mean.

    You often hear that there is no kamae in Aikido. But what is the "hanmi" (half body) position? It was originally called "roppo" (six directions) in the earlier years, and is a somewhat common kamae in classical styles (sometimes under different names, like "ichimonji no kamae"). Even shizentai (natural stance) can be classified as a choice of kamae. Kamae have different functions, which is why there is more than one kamae. Just because the kamae referred to appears to be defensive or nearly non-existant does not mean that it is not a kamae.

    The roppo/hanmi stance can be seen in many earlier photos of both Takeda Sokaku S. (DR AJJ) and Ueshiba Morihei S. (aikido). It is the first thing shown and taught in Ueshiba M. book "Budo" as well. He seemed to think that understanding the hanmi posture deeply was critical.

    Also, there are many techniques in pre-war aikido that involves shite initiating the technique by feinting an attack (kyo/jitsu) - either using sen no sen or sen sen no sen. This does not technically mean that you "attack first", but rather, that you seize the opponent's initiative at the same time or just before they attack. Kind of hard to explain.

    I agree that this is a tactic not found much (if at all) in aikido being practiced today, but it is one of many oversights that will hopefully be corrected by serious aikido-ka in the future.

    Sorry to contribute to taking this thread further off topic!

    Regards,
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 4th June 2001 at 04:55.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  5. #50
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    Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
    Peter,
    Aiki can be applied whether an opponent is resisting or not. And, aiki is all about "ju"!
    .....hmh.....seems you know what aiki is! Care to share?

    It surly will help to make this famous aiki-classification...
    regardz

    Szczepan Janczuk

  6. #51
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    Lightbulb How about this?

    Loosely adapted from a conversation involving Toby and others.
    Jujutsu can be worked on an inanimate object whereas Aiki requires a mind.
    Doug Walker
    Completely cut off both heads,
    Let a single sword stand against the cold sky!

  7. #52
    MPraskey Guest

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    A big part of the problem is none of us can seem
    to agree what consitutes Go no sen, Sen no sen, and Sen sen no sen. If we can only decide which method Aikido favors then it should be fairly easy to see which arts are "Aiki."

    Mike Praskey.

  8. #53
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    Cool

    ... assuming aikido is “aiki”...
    Doug Walker
    Completely cut off both heads,
    Let a single sword stand against the cold sky!

  9. #54
    Dan Harden Guest

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    A big part of the problem is none of us can seem
    to agree what consitutes Go no sen, Sen no sen, and Sen sen no sen. If we can only decide which method Aikido favors then it should be fairly easy to see which arts are "Aiki."

    Mike Praskey.

    Say what??
    Shall we define an orange by its lack of similarity to an apple?

    You cannot define which Koryu arts use Aiki by *your* intrepretations, or the use of a tactic (sen) then compare them to Aikido of all things.
    It matters NOT what Aikido does or does not do, to define Koryu
    You have one twisted sense of logic there son

    Koryu is, and has defined itself quite nicely without us
    our opinion is not needed
    While your on the subjectof Aiki, and this has nothing to do with comparisons to Koryu either, using Aikido as a model for Aiki is a bit shallow don't you think.

    lets see, for starters you have:
    The Aiki of Daito Ryu; which is a deeper study, particularly in some Ryu.
    You also have the Aiki of Yanagi ryu which is a deep study
    they both pre-date Aikido
    as well as others..........
    The Aiki of Aikido is only a "part" of the whole.

    Aiki as a tactic in Koryu; is what it is. Whether or not it compares to Aikido is of no consequence.

    Cheers
    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 5th June 2001 at 11:32.

  10. #55
    MPraskey Guest

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    " For the historians out there.

    Which of the Koryu would be classified as Aiki arts?

    I assume Daito ryu did not invent the term. "

    That was the premise of the thread, if you disagree with that,
    why are you here?

  11. #56
    MPraskey Guest

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    I hate the tendency of this thing to go off half-cocked...

    Mike Praskey
    Last edited by MPraskey; 5th June 2001 at 12:33.

  12. #57
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    Originally posted by MPraskey

    That was the premise of the thread, if you disagree with that,
    why are you here?
    Isn't the point of a discussion to allow for disagreement? Maybe the premise is invalid and merits disagreement.

    As far as 'aiki' in aikido, my only experience with practice of aiki has been in aikido, so that informs my definition of aiki. I can compare that with my experience with 'ju' in judo.

    From my experience, aiki just 'feels' different than ju. That's the basis for the definition of aiki I posted earlier. I certainly won't rule out that my definition won't change as I gain experience.

    I'm also certain that if you asked Ueshiba to define 'aiki' early in his career you would get a very different definition than 'aiki' as currently practiced in aikido.

    Personally, the only way I can understand aiki is to consider which techniques best demonstrate aiki, and which techniques lack aiki. An esoteric discussion of the definition of various 'sen' just doesn't work.

    Peter
    Peter Claussen

  13. #58
    MPraskey Guest

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    Disagree yes, kill the thread no. Dan talks about what I do wrong, yet makes no effort to contriubte to the attempt to figure this out. If as he claims Yanagi-ryu has made a "deep study of Aiki" then he could share some examples with us. It's easy to be a critic,it's a lot harder to propose an definition and defend it.

    To classify a Koryu as an "aiki" art we first have to understand what Aiki is and what it constitues. Aikido doesn't seem to be "aiki" at all in Dan's mind, just a pathetic piece of another art watered down and ripped apart. While I don't deny it's lost something over the years, to suggest that just because Aikido is gendai budo that it has no bearing on what Aiki is or what it might be is out of line. It may have changed, but it hasn't changed so much that there is no relationship between Daito-ryu and Aikido.

    All of the technques in Aikido come from Daito-ryu. They're diffrent in some ways but not so diffrent as to be completely alien. The bones of a dinosaur aren't an entire dinosaur either, so by studying the bones I know nothing about the dinosaur? I think you'd find a few paleontologists who might take offense to that. I think they'd also resent being called "shallow" because they have no live dinosaurs to study. Likewise, I haven't had the opputunity to study Daito-ryu personally. I've looked for similarities in techniques in Aikido and I've taken the words of teachers of Daito-ryu very seriously and tried to apply their insights to my own practice in Aikido. That's not Ideal but neither is life. Many of us here, including Peter practice Aikido. That's our experence with Aiki and I don't think it's any less worthy and example of Aiki just because it's Gendai budo.

    If Daito-ryu is Aiki, then so is Aikido. I've done my best to try and study Daito-ryu in a scholarly sense. If you've had the opputunity to study a Koryu art Dan you're a lucky indivudal, not all of us have had the privelage. In fact I'd wager that most of us on this site haven't had the privelage.

    What I find more disturbing is that what Dan seems to be insinuating is that only people who have practiced Koryu have any right to talk about anything that contisitutes them. If you want to talk about twisted logic, there's a bushel basket right there. By extension you should only be able to talk about Koryu that *you* have personally studied, since logically you don't know the workings of Koryu you have never practiced and everthing else you say about them, as I am doing on this thread is speculation.

    " Personally, the only way I can understand aiki is to consider which techniques best demonstrate aiki, and which techniques lack aiki. An esoteric discussion of the definition of various 'sen' just doesn't work. "

    But there's the problem right there. To figure out what technqiues best demonstrate Aiki, we have to know what it is. Tokimune Takeda has defined Aiki is Go no sen, hence my intrest in the meaning of the three Sen.

    Because we all have our own defintions of the three Sen and clasify it accordingly, Hence I've gone back to one of my books on Daito-ryu to take a second look at how Daito-ryu defines it. Tokimune Takeda has defined it as "Responding to an attack". He also says " Aiki is Go no sen." When I take that position I'm using his definition, not my own.

    He also terms Kendo and Itto-ryu as Go no sen on the basis that they respond to an attack. The only example of Sen Sen he gives other, then a police man attacking and subduing a subject with Jujutsu, is Jikishinkage-ryu, which his father studied.

    (What's maddening about that example is that the foot note then goes on to say " In fact, the Shinkage-derived sword traditons, and the Jikishinkage-ryu is considered to be among them, are known for their use of go no sen.")


    Hence, I'd say the following:


    A Go no Sen situation, which he closely assoicates with Aiki, you respond to an attack.

    He again defines it as: " Aiki is self-defense when an opponent attacks first and we use the term to refer to self-defense in general."

    "The opponent attacks first" Seems to be the key, the rest of the definition is rather loose.

    In a "Sen no sen " situation: Takeda says that a person "initiates " the attack.

    " Sen sen no sen " is rather difficult part of the foot note for that page defines it as: " there is also another level of iniitative known in Japanese as Sen sen no sen which is neither a direct attack nor a response to an attack but an attack that pre-empts an attack about to take place. "

    So, accepting his Tokimune Takeda's definition of Aiki:

    Go no sen is Aiki, these terms refer to those techqniues where you respond *after* an opponent attacks you.

    Sen no sen seems to refer to a situation where you attack first. Such as when a police officer has to use force to subdue a criminal. In this case the officer is the attacker, he's not responding to an attack rather he's chasing down an indvidual who is trying to get away.

    Sen sen no sen: is to head the attacker off at the pass, *before* he can initiate an attack. The only example I can think of here is the situation where the guy threatens to cut you, starts to reach for the knife and you deck him. He's about to attack but hasn't done it yet.

    Anyway, that Seems to be "Aiki" As Tokimune Takeda looks at it.
    By that definition even things like Kendo and Itto-ryu swordsmanship are Aiki. I don't think that's what you're looking for Peter. Are you looking for "Aiki" as an over-all approach to violent confrontation, regardless of how they go about it or are you looking for arts that engage in empty handed grappling-type "go no sen" style responses to attacks? Your post seems to indicate you're more intrested in the latter.

    Mike Praskey.

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    Mike,
    Aikido "aiki" and Daito-ryu "aiki" are not the same, by their practioners' own definitions. That's the problem. We can't establish what does and doesn't constitute an "aiki" art when different groups have a different understanding and interpretation of what constitutes aiki.


    Anyway, what Toby says in his later post sums it up. I'd rather just train, wouldn't you?
    Last edited by Cady Goldfield; 6th June 2001 at 03:58.
    Cady Goldfield

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    I quite agree with Dan here, they are two different things. It’s like this one is a house and this one is my home. Same but different, you know it kind of redefines what that structure means to a particular individual. The old ways are the old ways, and new ways are the new ways. Why do they have to compete or even show a linear progression? Why can’t they just be separate and appreciated for what they are? Seems some folks have to justify what they do by vilifying or belittling what other folks do. I don’t have a problem practicing and teaching both old and new. To me one is an anachronism and one is not but both are relevant to my life and growth as a being-human.



    [The Aiki of Aikido is only a "part" of the whole.

    Aiki as a tactic in Koryu; is what it is. Whether or not it compares to Aikido is of no consequence.

    Cheers
    Dan [/B][/QUOTE]
    Dennis Hooker
    www.shindai.com

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