Should martial art schools try and make a profit?

[Jody Holeton]

Heres a question thats been bumped around! Should martial art schools charge the minimum, just to pay rent and such, like alot of schools in Japan?


Should martial art schools be out to make the most money possible off their students? Kind of like the McDojo mentality Magaret Lo mentioned in other posts.


Interesting to hear what you all think--Jody

[Tetsutaka]

Is there no area between "break even" and 'McDojo's'"? I think so. It's called good business.

Just covering the bills is not enough. There are a myriad things that come up [including insurance, utilities, mat repair, etc.] to tug on your monthly income. If you are just barely "treading water" then the least little pul down make you swallow water...

Students need to understand that they have a duty to support their dojo so it will be there for them in the years to come.

On the other hand, there is such as thing as pricing yourself out of the market. For what you charge, there is an expected level of service. If the expectation for your dojo to be open 24 hours a day, and you're charging that way - but only teaching at a local community center, then you will quickly run into a perception problem with the public, and rightly so.

Make sure that your students have the proper expectations, and charge them accordingly. It doesn't do them any favors to charge just enough to run yourself out of business in six months. This is, of course, working on the assumption that every student will pay every month on time without fail, and will be a student of yours for many years to come...


Expectations work both ways.

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Houston Haynes
"You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

[Tetsutaka]

And another thing...

There is a Japanese MA here in the area that charges $35 per month at the YMCA, and also has a dojo where they charge twice that.

On the other end of the spectrum, we have a Korean style that charges as much as $39 per week, yes, per week for classes.

Neither one of them are going out of business.

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Houston Haynes
"You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

[This message has been edited by Tetsutaka (edited 06-12-2000).]

[Reece McQuinn]

Any and all martial arts dojo where the teacher is making his or her living from teaching is a place to stay away from.

Martial Arts should not be a business. Any one doing it as a business is in my opinion only selling rank.

At least with a non-profit place,you know that the teacher is most likely doing it because he or she cares, not to make money.

Every decent dojo I have trained at was a non-profit.

The people who charge outragous amounts of money are usually egotists and any real knowldge they have becomes available only to the wealthy.Japanese martial arts should not be an exclusive club based one's bank account!

To each thier own.

[Joseph Svinth]

Oh. Since we don't pay money for instruction, does that mean that whenever some Grand Poohbah asks you to pay his airfare to your school for testing(or worse, charges promotion fees -- I think the Kodokan is about $750 for 7-dan these days), then we should laugh at Poohbah's commercial pretensions?

Also, should we also tell Poohbah to take his association fees and shove them where the sun doesn't shine?

My attitude is that if we are going to pay Poohbah to show up once a year or decade, then we should pay the guy who teaches us every day, too.

But probably Poohbah wouldn't like that, as if everybody thought this way, then he might have to get a real job, kinda like the rest of us.

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Joe
http://ejmas.com

[Tetsutaka]

I think you also have to decide what "not-for-profit" means...

"Break even" means one thing, "not-for-profit" is completely another.

My question is always - what happens when someone gets hurt? Do you think that the dojo will survive if the instructor finds out that Tommy's daddy is a personal injury lawyer? Who cares if Tommy is a senior student at the college where your teach, and Tommy signed about 50 waivers. That just means that the sensei AND the university are going to be sued.

There is always a balance. You get what you pay for. You also get what you ask for. If you walk into a dojo that is in a gymnasium with no mats, and want to train in judo - you're going to feel pain at the end of class... now that is a bit of a stretch, but you see my point. You can't have everything, and if you want free training, [as I said above] you will get exactly what you pay for.

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Houston Haynes
"You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

[Joseph Svinth]

Houston -- aren't the NFL, NBA, and NHL all "not-for-profit" organizations? If so, how do I get similar income from sport? (Tell the truth, I could probably force myself to live on what they pay the players, but really I'd rather live on what they pay the owners.)

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Joe
http://ejmas.com

[Tetsutaka]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph Svinth:
Houston -- aren't the NFL, NBA, and NHL all "not-for-profit" organizations?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know - but that follows my point exactly. I just heard a radio spot on NPR about the Goodwill store (San Diego?) where they were competing successfully with the Old Navy's in the area. The CEO of that Goodwill organization is pulling in $500,000 per year as a salary - from a non-profit.

I think the idealistic notions of teaching for free went the way of "everyone living in peace & harmony"



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Houston Haynes
"You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

[Tetsutaka]

...and another thing...

What about the teacher that has put years of time, energy and yes - MONEY - into his or her training?

What about the instructor that makes $75 per hour as a professional in his or her real job? Should he or she teach i nspare time for free to compensate, and accept every schmuck that comes into the dojo? That would mean that there will be 15 classes per week, and don't forget the free private lessons for those who can't make the scheduled classes... the instructor shouldn't expect any personal time at all - after all... it's the obligation of ht eteacher to be at the disposal of every student...

Should he or she also buy uniforms for the poor students? After all - it is their obligation to teach - is it not? Should he or she not also be expected to provide the best gear to everyone that comes through the door?

Fair - Schmair...

Reece - get a job - Karl Marx is dead.

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Houston Haynes
"You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

[This message has been edited by Tetsutaka (edited 06-13-2000).]

[Chuck Clark]

The Aikikai hombu in Tokyo, a "traditional dojo", in most people's standards charges around $120 a month for two days practice a week. Granted, there are usually 5 classes a day and many people arrange their schedule so they can make two classes per day for their two days a week. It still is a fair bit of change.


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Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
http://www.jiyushinkai.org

[Reece McQuinn]

Chuck:

Yeah it's a lot of money. A guy from my dojo (not Aikido) just got his shodan after just short of a year's traing there with no other prevous experience, at the Aikikai hombu dojo going once per week.Tell me that isn't selling rank! Besides, EVERYTHING is more expensive in Tokyo!

I just saw a test not so long ago for the Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei and every single person testing up through 3-dan passed. And some of them couldn't do the techniques.The word is, you can't fail under through 3-dan. That means everyone is going to get a shodan in a year, 2-dan in two years, 3-dan in 4 years. Tell me this isn't selling rank!

A non-profit doesn't mean you don't pay dues. It's a legal status that helps some people stay in business and others avoid taxable income.But most dojo are the former not the latter.

We are not talking the NBA here for the love of _______! Most martial arts dojo just get by no matter what the students pay.

I still say that if you are in it for profit, those who come to your dojo are not students, they are business clients (with the business client's legal rights for written and implied warranties), and there are those out there that have to be motivated into paying thier dues and staying in class. Selling rank is a way to easily keep people motivated and paying.

Paying dues to cover rent, insurance, these kinds of things, yes thats what people do in dojos where the teacher has a real job besides teaching MA. People willing to pay realy big money to train with a 'super star'... whatever, it's thier money.

The best teachers I have ever had, teach because because they belive that what they are teaching has value in and of itself, not because it has a marketable value. I'm not saying every dojo that is non-profit is without bad teachers. But commercialism does not usually mean the MA business has a lot of heart!

A dojo that charges too much, should raise some flags and make the perspective student want to start asking some questions. Then it might be easier to judge the heart of the dojo.

[Reece McQuinn]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Popie:
[B]...I think a question too should be if instructors of martial arts should get fat on the profits of teaching? and if so does that effect quality?
B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you mean too fat to do the techniques themselves because they can't see thier own feet anymore?

This is an interesting thread. Is there a corrolation between profit and quality? I wouldn't say a corrolation but a tend perhaps.

Some dojo in japan have been mentioned as being expensive, but most really aren't so bad. I used to live in a prefecture far away from Tokyo, and the local prefectual budokan had, Aikido, Kyudo, Atarashi Naginata, Karate,Judo and Kendo, all for free! All by very qualified instructors, since thier time was compinsated by the tax payers, they had a standard.

I don't like those who get fat from charging expensive dues, but hey, if they can do it, and keep students, and those student's feel they have gotten thier money worth, well ok then. Good enough.

At least there is the whole gambit, from dirst cheap to too expensive to choose from.

The issue shouldn't be the money, maybe the issue should be can the instructor instruct?

[kagebushi]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Reece McQuinn:
Some dojo in japan have been mentioned as being expensive, but most really aren't so bad. I used to live in a prefecture far away from Tokyo, and the local prefectual budokan had, Aikido, Kyudo, Atarashi Naginata, Karate,Judo and Kendo, all for free!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You mention here only gendai budo arts. I do not want to offend anybody here or start another flame war (so please do not take this the wrong way), but these arts are in Japan generally referred to as Martial Sports and as cultural activities. Considering this cross culturally, it is very similar to western countries, where kids and adults practise football, basketball, baseball, etc in mini leagues or community centers. These coaches do the same thing, for no money: Leading, teaching and instructing. So i do not think that the Gendai Budo instructors are very special in this aspect.

Running a Dojo for profit??? I think martial arts originally are a part of military science, and not some kind of a "holy" religious thing. It is a free market economy, if somebody can make a living of teaching MA, let him do it. It is a customer choice to do pay for this service.
Hm, this topic is good. I really do not think that most professional business "MA schools" in the US for example are worth their money. But, hey if the students are happy getting a belt, and actually have to sweat a bit for it (instead of sitting in front of the TV all day), why not??? People will spend or rather waste their money on something anyway. I have seen students of instructors (who charged very little) who couldn`t wait to order something over the Dojo (discounted dealer prices), but had to run out to the next "pay your butt off" martial art store for stupid toys or even "sometimes" good training gear.

MA for everybody, sounds a bit communist. In the USA there is the second amdment to keep a balance of power.

Let`s mention some serious/real martial arts training. Schools that teach skills, methods and arts on a professional level. There is a need for this ranging from Law enforcement, over the private security/protection field to the military. I believe absolutly that this should be run like a professional business. The best quality, services and instructions are needed to succeed and to stay in business. Instructors have the right like any other occupation to make money, has they have spend their time, money, sweat and blood to achieve their level. How many people complain that about government services or workers??? I think the problem is that they are not running for profit. Many government employees would not keep their jobs in the real world.

Food for thought, my ex-girlfriend signed her model contract and was told the "basic" hourly wage was US$120 (she went on the Med school by the way...). i am to ashamed to admit how much i was making, while doing high risk security assignments...



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Mark Brecht

[Aaron Fields]

I run a dojo in which I take no payment from. All of the income goes back to the dojo. This is the way I like it, but I have a "day job." As to what others should do, I would never be so bold as to say. Except in the case of the "Mcdojo or dojo-Kings" of the world. These srip-mall clubs in general rub me the wrong way. The trick is to remain honest. The dojo I run is located in the "rough" area of town. Many of the students come from other areas and are in a financial position to contribute a little extra (club fees range between $15-40 per month for a working adult.) I have been able to offer scholarships to a few of the younger members who cannot afford the monthly dues. Dogi are purchased at wholesale with a $5 handle fee (which goes to the club.) We also re-sell dogi of people who join, try, and quit. All in all we are doing well. But, like I said this is how I like to run things. I was a poor kid who found an instructor who gave me a break, so in return.....

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Regards,
Aaron

[MarkF]

Joe Svinth has pretty much explained my feelings on this matter, but one thing I have a probelm with is payment for testing, or rather, testing at all. Someone made the point of testing fees and that everyone passes. If this is indeed fact, and I know a lot of people do this, but since the test itself is based on what the student has been taught be his/her teacher(s), doesn't the teacher all ready know the level of a student's training? If sensei doesn't know by then, what is the purpose? Doesn't the student bare any of the responsibility? At the same time, isn't the teacher's job to know what level of training the student has reached around the time of a test? I would think a lot of responsiblity would go with a promotion and these are things which cannot be tested as such. How does a student handle responsibility? Is he/she selfish and only after personal reward? The teacher can see these aspects of one's character on a daily basis. Is the student giving of/him/her self? How does the student manage when asked for help, even to the detriment to his/her training time? Should not all of this go into grading a student's training level? If so, what is the point of a test? Assuming no built-in handicaps, it woud seem these "untestable" traits come through much better than technique alone. I think that is how these McDojos get the reputation in the first place. Why must a teacher charge monies above and beyond the monthly charges? Even the junior student will surprise now and then, and while a belt rank may be a goal for said student, shouldn't the teacher be able to see when it is time? "Rank is nothing. Waza is everything." Well, put in that context, it is true, but are there not other areas of natural ability which will show as well? I believe testing is expected so the teacher gives these tests. It is also another source of income, but how much is too much? Tests are basically arbitrary in nature, but the teacher's knwoledge of just where the student is in his/her training is something which cannot be picked up by a mere test. The responsibility of grading students whould fall on the sensei's ability to see this level of ability much better than a test.

As to Jody's question, I think it would depend on many factors and I think abillity to pay should be considered. Many find it difficult to pay monthly fees, dogi, belt fees, etc, not to keep this in mind. There are many ways to pay for one's keep, and not all of it is in the way of a monetary fee. There has always been a social basis for the arts so I believe this too should play a role. Possibly a sliding scale, in particular, for that one student who has something special. It isn't so different from other arts, arts most people relate. Are the martial arts so much different? Can we not give "scholarships?"

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Mark F. Feigenbaum