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Thread: Hakko ryu jujutsu

  1. #16
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    Hi Steven,

    So how are you enjoying Hakko Ryu? I used to study it along time ago, and enjoyed it before moving on to another style.

    It was rather ammusing to see the ruckas that followed your simple innocent question of comparing the differences between Daito Ryu & Hakko Ryu.

    I've met Brently and enjoyed working out with him in a seminar ( one of Don Angiers ) and a class I taught along time ago using the Hanbo in Monterey. During these occasions he was open minded and we shared some ideas, so I was surprised at seeing his ire and lack of patience at some of the people who tried to answer your question.

    I don't come to this post often, but I have to admit that rather than giving someone details on the differences of these two styles it was really disappointing to see such a thread drift initiated by Brently.

    With all due respect, Brently lighten up....After reading your post I think I see why you're beating your head against a wall unable to convince others as to the difference between jujutsu & aikijujutsu...simply put your examples are all philosophical and on top of that rely on symbolic representation...Simply put, take some waza and explain the differences in how aikijujutsu based off of your experience conducts these in comparrison to how some form of jujutsu you've experienced conducts these. As long as you remain philisophical or if you state that you can't verbally compare...then you'll continue to beat your head, in which case you need to invest in some asprin or other such product.

    By now Steven, unless your instructor does so on their own initiative, you've discovered that Hakko Ryu is based off of Katas, no randori etc. << this is a very simplified explanation >> When Ryuho Okuyama created this system, one of his reasons for its set up was the idea that if you were to focus on kata. << when I read the number of weapon systems that Shodai Soke had learned I was disappointed that he had not chosen to bring them solidly into his system >> The student would achieve a proficiency and ability to move onward much faster than other systems because this was their sole focus. As a result after learning the Shodan Kata, it was time to move directly to Nidan, etc....Had I seen this post earlier I would have elaborated that while one can do randori or henka, it's not part of this styles curriculum. I would however pointed out that Hakko Ryu teaches you shiatsu, which can have great theraputic effects on either yourself or your loved ones...or when doing your waza's make everything so much more painful than before.

    While Aikijujutsu is often heralded as being more hidden or less obvious in its use than jujutsu. Hakko Ryu means the 8th light school ( infrared -- the reason he chose this is because you can't see the infrared spectrum and the waza are supposed to be done in such a manner that is so small as to be unseen ).

    Unfortunately Hakko Ryu's experienced alot of problems lately. When Irie Sensei left, most Hakko Ryu dojo's left Nidai Soke and went with him. Now there is another rift brewing...which organization are you apart of Hakkodenshin Ryu or Kokoro Ryu?

    Eric Bookin

  2. #17
    shinja Guest

    Cool

    Hey Eric,

    Thanks for the input.

    I'm really new so I haven't really figured out the dynamics of the group yet.

    I'm actually new to Hakko Ryu. My intstructor is Shihan William Thurston. His instructor was Dennis Palumbo, San Dai Kichu (Hakko Ryu Martial Arts Federation). We actually do randori as part of the curriculum at the club I practice at. I have dan ranking in both Kempo and Aikido but I have to say I am really drawn to Hakko Ryu. I like the straight forward yet subtle approach of the techniques.

    I think of all the waza the shodan wrist bind has been most challenging. The rest are similar to what I had learned in Aikido.

    I had heard that Irie Sensei and LaMonica Sensei had left. Whoa! What other rift is brewing? Man, how much more can Hakko Ryu take?

    Hanbo? now there's something I'd like to learn. I'd really like to learn the Kukishin Ryu bojutsu. Tantojutsu would be cool too.


  3. #18
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    Default

    Thanks for the input.

    I'm really new so I haven't really figured out the dynamics of the group yet.

    I'm actually new to Hakko Ryu. My intstructor is Shihan William Thurston. His instructor was Dennis Palumbo, San Dai Kichu (Hakko Ryu Martial Arts Federation). We actually do randori as part of the curriculum at the club I practice at. I have dan ranking in both Kempo and Aikido but I have to say I am really drawn to Hakko Ryu. I like the straight forward yet subtle approach of the techniques.

    I think of all the waza the shodan wrist bind has been most challenging. The rest are similar to what I had learned in Aikido.

    I fail to see why Brently should "lighten up" He expressed a very well explained position about why by the definition of a practisioner of a particular art (daito-ryu) he does not consider Hakko-ryu to be aikijujutsu.
    As I recall, he spelled it out quite clearly in my mind, and did it before anyone else. I find nothing wrong with that.
    It's clear he has some strong feelings on the subject, but it is also clear where his biases come from and why. I wish other people would explain their background and position on things nearly this well when they attempt to explain something.

    thanks,

    Joel

  4. #19
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    Default On the Horizion

    Hi Steven,

    Ooops! I just re-read my earlier post and and saw that I asked whether you were part of Hakko Ryu or Kokoro ( I was tired, I ment to type Kokodo...sorry about that ).

    Hakko Ryu's alot of fun, and is extremely painful, when your wrist gets sore invest in tape...I'd go to Long's or Thrifty and get their value pack of athletic tape ( usually 4 rolls for $10 ). Tape them well so that you get full support and you can still keep training and receiving techniques without occuring further injury. One of the most common mistakes is just receiving waza with your good hand which just leads to that one getting injured. So when your wrists get sore either invest in tape or back off during training.

    I used to train in Hakko Ryu with Julio Toribio, in Monterey, Ca. in 1993 he left Hakko Ryu and launched his own system ( Seibukan Jujutsu, which he based off of Hakko Ryu ).

    While various people from time to time leave whatever system they are apart of and create their own. The big blow to Hakko Ryu came when Irie Sensei left and most of the Hakkor Ryu dojo's around the world went with him. The big guns in the states rushed into changing the name of Hakko Ryu to Hakkodenshin Ryu. This was before Irie Sensei renamed his art...which is why it flies under the name of Kokodo in Japan. It was decided that Hakkodenshin is what it would be known elsewhere and Kokodo in Japan.

    With this type of a setup it was only a matter of time before someone would eventually fly under Kokodo in the states as opposed to Hakkodenshin Ryu. This has not been well received so far. We'll see what happens. My advice would simply be to not say anything abrasive that would cause you to be unwelcome at either ones seminars so that you can skip the politics and further your training.

    Best of luck,

    Eric Bookin

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    Default My perspective

    Hi Joel,

    I agree with you that anyone has the right to state their opinions. The reason I said that I thought Brently should "lighten up" was simply because he knows Julio and as a result has been exposed to Hakko Ryu. The fact that he's expressed frustration at people not catching his meaning means he needs to do the same thing he does when one of his students doesn't under a waza or henka, and use a different explanation to get his point across.

    Because Brently's been exposed to Hakko Ryu...perhaps I'm reading to much...but I thought it would have been more effective to say something to the effect of...

    "Hakko Ryu, unlike the various teachings of Daito Ryu is based entirely around kata. While Okuyama may have studied Daito Ryu and excelled at it, he left several aspects behind. Hakko Ryu doesn't do randori...you learn the Shodan Kata...that's it and then move to the nidan kata...that's it and then Sandan." In the west instructors tend to add additional material but that's not how it's taught in Japan. It may utilize some Aiki principles but do to its set up the founder chose to categorize it as a Jujutsu system."

    What makes this different than his post...is that its brief and answers a new prospective students questions without going into a series of self complaints. Which when looking for answers to a new system to study is more helpful.

    Eric Bookin

  6. #21
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    Default

    Hi Eric,

    I hope you've been doing well, please give my regards to Julio sensei when you see him.

    I agree that kata geiko is a distinguishing characteristic of Hakko-ryu (as it is with most branches of Daito-ryu too). However, the question posed at the start of this thread was, is Hakko-ryu considered to be aikijujutsu? This question is more about the techniques that make up the curriculum, rather than the method of training (such as kata vs randori or oyo waza).

    I'm not going repeat my tirade, or continue to try and explain it (too much) further, because I think it's rather pointless. I do believe my posts were clear enough (read them again if you like).

    I will admit I that I often tend to be long-winded, especially with my opinions, but I think I was brief and to the point with regard to the question specifically about Hakko-ryu and aikijujutsu.

    Part of my frustration, I suppose stems from the nature of an electronic BB. It's not like in the dojo where I can actually demonstrate what I'm talking about and easily adapt different approaches for each each student to help them understand better. There's only so many explanations I can give in writing, and this is why aikijujutsu can only be taught in person, transmitted from teacher to student. This is more of a digression here though, because now we're talking about teaching methods again, as opposed to technical content (jujutsu or aikijujutsu).

    My appearent lack of patience stems from having tried, and tried for years on this forum (both BC and PC), and in other forums to explain to people that Daito-ryu aiki is different. I think I'm still open-minded in that I have been exposed to both jujutsu and aikijujutsu, in addition to a lot of other stuff, and I continue to seek out new experiences and try other things all the time. What frustrates me is when people who do not have much exposure to authentic aikijujutsu make assumptions about it and try to (re)define what it is or isn't.

    If I were to go online for example, and say that there's really not much difference between Escrima and Kukishin-ryu hanbojutsu. And that what Hatsumi sensei teaches is more or less a form of kali, arnis, or escrima (they're all just stickfighting), then that'd be inappropriate on my part (not to mention displaying my ignorance of the subjects).

    Although I've got few books and videos on Philipino martial arts, and I've also sparred and trained with a few practitioners, and I've also read most of Hatsumi's books, seen his video's, and attended a few classes and seminars as well - I'm hardly qualified to make such an assumption.

    Well, I did it anyway - I just tried to explain myself further (sorry folks). I did follow your suggestion though and tried to use another example that you might be able to relate to better.


    Brently Keen

    Just for the record, if anyone out there is interested in a truly excellent jujutsu teacher, Julio Toribio in Monterey CA would be an outstanding choice, IMO.

    [Edited by Brently Keen on 11-07-2000 at 02:59 AM]

  7. #22
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    Wink Hakko Ryu

    Hi,
    From having seen parts of the Daito Ryu Hiden Mokuroku,
    which is essentially Jujutsu, I can see where many of the more public kihon waza are coming from.
    As I'm not qualified enough, I don't know what to think
    about a few of the limited number of Shihan waza that I
    have seen as far as them being defined as aikijujutsu or
    not is concerned, though.

    While henka waza are not emphazised at the Hakko Ryu Honbu, as far as I've been told, it is not unheard of. The first Honbu manual mentions the possibility of creating a large number of henka (variations) from the principles taught in the kihon waza (Kata) and the Nidai Soke apparently taught variations during his recent visit to Hawaii, according to reports.
    Regards
    Arne

  8. #23
    shinja Guest

    Default Re: On the Horizion

    Originally posted by Yojimbo558
    Hi Steven,

    Ooops! I just re-read my earlier post and and saw that I asked whether you were part of Hakko Ryu or Kokoro ( I was tired, I ment to type Kokodo...sorry about that ).

    Hakko Ryu's alot of fun, and is extremely painful, when your wrist gets sore invest in tape...I'd go to Long's or Thrifty and get their value pack of athletic tape ( usually 4 rolls for $10 ). Tape them well so that you get full support and you can still keep training and receiving techniques without occuring further injury. One of the most common mistakes is just receiving waza with your good hand which just leads to that one getting injured. So when your wrists get sore either invest in tape or back off during training.

    I used to train in Hakko Ryu with Julio Toribio, in Monterey, Ca. in 1993 he left Hakko Ryu and launched his own system ( Seibukan Jujutsu, which he based off of Hakko Ryu ).

    While various people from time to time leave whatever system they are apart of and create their own. The big blow to Hakko Ryu came when Irie Sensei left and most of the Hakkor Ryu dojo's around the world went with him. The big guns in the states rushed into changing the name of Hakko Ryu to Hakkodenshin Ryu. This was before Irie Sensei renamed his art...which is why it flies under the name of Kokodo in Japan. It was decided that Hakkodenshin is what it would be known elsewhere and Kokodo in Japan.

    With this type of a setup it was only a matter of time before someone would eventually fly under Kokodo in the states as opposed to Hakkodenshin Ryu. This has not been well received so far. We'll see what happens. My advice would simply be to not say anything abrasive that would cause you to be unwelcome at either ones seminars so that you can skip the politics and further your training.

    Best of luck,

    Eric Bookin
    Eric,

    No chance of me getting abrasive. I'm sure each who have left have had their reasons. That is their path. Heck, I made the decision to abandon the aikido dojo I was studying at in favor of Hakko Ryu. I personally do not pay much attention to politics. I do hope to eventually attend a seminar with Irie or LaMonica. The chance to work with instructors of that caliber would be way cool.

    Thanks for the tip on taping the wrists (I'll certainly share that with the other members of the dojo). So how far did you get in the Hakko Ryu curriculum? I was working out with a guy working on sandan waza. Man! As if shodan tekagami didn't hurt bad enough, sandan tekagami is absolutely brutal!!!! I thought I was going to crap in my pants! I'm really having fun with Hakko Ryu. (pain is good!)

    Thanks again for the tip.


  9. #24
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    Hi folks, interesting thread! Sorry I came by so late.

    Is there "aiki" in Hakkoryu? What's the definition of "aiki"? I think that subject's been thrashed about quite a bit, no?

    If you believe that aiki has at least one definition, in being a means to defend oneself by creating a moment of control during an aggressive situation (off-balance, surprise) or by taking advantage of a aggressor’s own moment of "weakness", then yes, there is aiki in Hakkoryu.

    Compared to Aikido, many of Hakkoryu’s techniques might seem quite abrupt, and more often than not the aggressor is pinned rather than thrown away. Where I see "aiki" in the techniques is within the manner of inducing a state of off-balance in the aggressor, especially within Sandan and higher techniques. Often, rather than relying on body movement to challenge the aggressor’s balance, Hakkoryu delivers pressure and/or strikes to tsubos, points along the body's keiraku (meridians). The prime effect is that pain is induced, which causes that state of imbalance that gives a defender a chance to take control. So, if a moment of imbalance is induced via pain versus physical motion, is there a difference in whether or not "aiki" is there?

    Thanks,

    Devon

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    Question Koho Igaku Shiatsu

    Hi,
    The study of pressure points and meridians in Hakko Ryu is very interesting, both for self defense techniques (latest information coming my way are a few ideas concerning Hakko Ryu kasadori) and for healing.
    Unfortunately I have very little really practical information about Koho Igaku Shiatsu, as I have only been exposed to it very briefly. Does this system include any methods for self treatment?
    Regards
    Arne Oster

  11. #26
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    Default Koho Shiatsu

    Hi Arne,

    I probably can't help too much with specific answers regarding shiatsu. I wanted to take Soke's shiatsu course last year, but it looks like I'll be waiting on that until 2002.

    I'm sure self-treatment is possible, but obviously limited somewhat to whatever you're able to reach.

    As a young teen I suffered from migraine headaches a lot, and got some instruction from a Chinese doctor regarding various pressure points on the face, head and neck I was able to press which offered me some relief. I don't know if specific self-help techniques are taught in Koho Shiatsu, but I'll ask some questions myself.

    In the meantime, take a look at http://members.aol.com/Yotsume/YotsumeAnma.html, where Bill Ristuccia offers some info regarding various traditional Japanese massage and other works.

    Devon

  12. #27
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    Default

    Since this thread was revived, I thought I'd pick up on Devon's 11/7/00 post here, so please allow me to expound a little further on this old subject.

    Devon wrote:

    "What's the definition of "aiki"? <snip> If you believe that aiki has at least one definition, in being a means to defend oneself by creating a moment of control during an aggressive situation (off-balance, surprise) or by taking advantage of a aggressor’s own moment of "weakness", then yes, there is aiki in Hakkoryu."

    The definition of aiki has been debated to no end, but the term "aiki" has come into popular use primarily because of the influence of Daito-ryu, and arts derived from Daito-ryu such as Aikido and Hakko-ryu. Therefore it stands to reason that if you want the proper definition, you should look to it's source (Daito-ryu) for clarification.

    I agree that aiki can be a "means" of taking control, and that aiki always takes advantage of an aggressor's weaknesses. It very well may also result in off-balancing, or surprise (among other things), but the means are not to be confused with the end (results). Nor are all means with similar results the same.

    Many arts incorporate the strategy of taking advantage of an opponents weaknesses, using kuzushi (off-balancing) and surprise, and those things are all ways of accomplishing objectives in a conflict, but those things are not aiki. In Daito-ryu, aiki is a special technique - something specific that you apply as a means to off-balance, surprise, and take advantage of your opponents weaknesses.

    Other arts employ other techniques/methods to accomplish these ends, but Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu uses aiki. Hakko-ryu Jujutsu primarily uses jujutsu techniques (kansetsu waza/skeletal locking techniques) along with painful pressure point techniques to accomplish these objectives, not aiki. Some of the results are similar (or at least appear to be), and many of the principles are the same, but the means of obtaining those results are quite different. In fact, when aiki is applied, the actual results are more often than not quite different too, but that's another whole topic, best reserved for the dojo.

    Brently Keen


  13. #28
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    Hi Brently, I'm glad to have been here while you made your post.

    Forgive me, I don't know if you if you've watched or practiced Hakkoryu. You are quite correct when you said "Hakko-ryu Jujutsu primarily uses jujutsu techniques (kansetsu waza/skeletal locking techniques) along with painful pressure point techniques".

    Aiki principles, as you describe them (even though the description of which makes most sense in the dojo, as you say) are briefly presented in the basic waza, shodan to yondan, but the waza is very, very basic indeed.

    I was pleasantly surprised when I had the opportunity last year to take my next "step", that the small "aiki" seeds that were planted earlier in my study seem to have sprouted a bit!

    Devon

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    Hi,
    I was many years ago exposed to a few of the Shihan level Hakko Ryu waza, which does seem to involve more 'aiki' elements than the kihon waza. Could be wrong, though ;-)
    Regards
    Arne
    P.S. Looking for useful material on Hakko Ryu, such as
    seminar videos, etc. Can anyone help?


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    Hi Brently-san,

    You wrote:

    The definition of aiki has been debated to no end, but the term "aiki" has come into popular use primarily because of the influence of Daito-ryu, and arts derived from Daito-ryu such as Aikido and Hakko-ryu. Therefore it stands to reason that if you want the proper definition, you should look to it's source (Daito-ryu) for clarification.
    I'm afraid I can't agree with this statement.

    I do agree that we wouldn't be talking any more about concepts like "aiki" than we would concepts like "suigetsu", or "zanshin" if it was not for Daito ryu's popularity.

    And I also concede that Daito ryu may in fact be the most advanced system to research aiki currently, and as such a good place to consider focusing your effort.

    However, Your conclusion: "Therefore it stands to reason that if you want the proper definition, you should look to it's source (Daito-ryu) for clarification." Seems a bit strong to me.

    I've been collecting sources of Aiki-references for an essay I'm working on (which in unfortunately mostly in me head still), and it is quite clear that there are ligitimate older systems besides Daito ryu that use the term. Therfore, Daito ryu's use of Aiki is technically one of several valid applications of a theory called Aiki.

    Many systems seem to use the term (at least from the limited amount that I've been able to document) in a more broad, general sense. But systems like Kashima shin ryu and Yanagi ryu (under Angier Soke) explain they're appliacation of aiki as a more complex and subtle tactic than many I've heard.

    It appears at this point that most if not all definitions I've come across at least have major elements in common.

    I look forward to completing the essay and getting feedback from yourself and others.

    Regards,

    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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