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Thread: Hakko ryu jujutsu

  1. #46
    Finny Guest

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    They have copyrighted the term, so I doubt its got anything to do with any splinter group(s)

  2. #47
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    Originally posted by Finny
    They have copyrighted the term, so I doubt its got anything to do with any splinter group(s)
    Of course "Daito-ryu" is trademarked as well, but the Seishinkai still seems to be in business...

    An interesting story - Yukiyoshi Sagawa hears one day about a Daito-ryu student who's split off and calling what he does something else (Ryuho Okuyama, founder of Hakko-ryu). Sagawa and Kotaro Yoshida (IIRC) go up to Okuyama's house to "set him straight", but he's not at home so they give up and go away. A little while later Tokimune Takeda visits Sagawa and tells him that Okuyama is one of his students and asks Sagawa not to bother him. Dojo-breaking crisis narrowly averted !

    Best,

    Chris

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    Talking

    I heard the same story except it was Okuyama, a student of Sogaku and Matsuda, who went to Ueshiba's. Anyone else have some unsubstantiated gossip to throw into the mix?

  4. #49
    Don Cunningham Guest

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    I heard it was Rod and it was a sokeship in Hakko Ryu.
    Brought to you by the purveyors of quality unsubstantiated gossip...

  5. #50
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    Originally posted by RDFittro
    I heard the same story except it was Okuyama, a student of Sogaku and Matsuda, who went to Ueshiba's. Anyone else have some unsubstantiated gossip to throw into the mix?
    The story I quoted was a published account of Yukiyoshi Sagawa's recollection of the incident from "Tomei na Chikara". Whether Sagawa was lying or not I have no idea .

    Best,

    Chris

  6. #51
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    Cool

    Boy do I feel silly.....

    My info came from someone who's teacher studied directly with Okuyama. But I have no way of knowing which version is true either.... However, I've never heard that Okuyama was Tokimune's student. Any info about this?
    Last edited by RDFittro; 8th July 2002 at 23:26.
    Robert Fittro

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    Originally posted by RDFittro
    Boy do I feel silly.....

    My info came from someone who's teacher studied directly with Okuyama. But I have no way of knowing which version is true either.... However, I've never heard that Okuyama was Tokimune's student. Any info about this?
    As I recall (without checking the book) that's what Tokimune said, but I believe that it was more in the sense of "I am responsible for him", since Sagawa mentions Okuyama and Matsuda a little bit in another section.

    Best,

    Chris

  8. #53
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    Hi John,

    Shodai Soke, when he created Hakko Ryu set it up his creation in a form that vastly differed from the styles that he had learned and trained in. Put simply, Ryuho Okuyama felt that if by stripping a style down to kata a martial arts practioner could achieve an understanding and skill at an accelerated rate.

    To get your Shodan...you learn one kata...to get your Nidan you learn one kata...this repeats itself all the way up to 7th Dan.

    The downfall of this system came in the form of Ryuho Okuyama turning the system over to his son. The reason I say that this was the downfall, is due to the fact that the son never wanted to inherit the system. On top of this the father upon making him Nidai Soke, gave him his name...now the son not only had something fostered upon him that he didn't want, but had lost his identity as well in taking his father's name.

    Unlike other Soke's who've studied several ryu's before creating their own systems, Hakko Ryu is the only school Nidai Soke has studied, and even then it was done so reluctantly.

    Irie Sensei was seen as the most competant amongst the senior individuals, and it was felt by many that he should have been the one to inherit the system. Mainly due to the fact that he didn't agree with how Hakko Ryu was being taught, Irie Sensei left the organization & most of it's International structured left Nidai Soke to go with him. Curiously Irie's style is known by two different names...in Japan it's referred to as Kokodo Ryu Jujutsu & outside Japan it is referred to as Hakkodenshin Ryu Jujutsu. Nidai Soke had been known saddly, for selling rank...I've heard other instructors refer to the way Nidai Soke conducted business as being "Money Jutsu" where in some cases an individual had purchased a higher rank & learned the kata that went with it...but had bi-passed some of the kata's that had preceeded it.

    That's all for now,

    Eric L. Bookin

  9. #54
    Abu Maryum Guest

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    Does this also apply to Hakko Ryu outside of Japan?

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    Hi Abu,

    Hakko Ryu outside of Japan has become extremely mired in politics. When I was in Puerto Rico a few years ago, I met a shihan who had moved there recently. Like most styles an instructor is allowed to promote their students up to a certain level, usually 4th dan...after which further progression comes soley from being promoted by the Soke. Some groups outside of Japan have taken to promoting their students to Godan in Nidai Soke's stead.

    Some of the groups stick to the just kata curriculum of Hakko Ryu, while others have added to the curriculum at their schools.

    When Irie Sensei left, there had been a great deal of unhappiness with Nidai Soke...and as I had stated earlier when Irie left, the majority of the organization went with him.

    Irie waited awhile before coming up with a new name for the system. As far as he was concerned, he was bringing the detail & precision that was supposed to be there. In the meantime the various groups that left with him began calling what they were doing Hakkodenshin Ryu. When Irie settled on Kokodo Ryu it was decided that this is what it would be called in Japan & the other every where else.

    While this set up had many happy, Irie opened a bag of worms which has left room for more political up heaval.

    When you represent your Soke, things umbrella out ie. you get promoted by your instructor and eventually open your own school. In the scheme of things, you both do the same thing, but your instructor is still the next higher representative of your art, just as students that you promote who open schools would still be under you.

    Where the can of worms opened up, was when Irie gave permission for a student who eventually wanted to teach Kokodo here in the States. Irie didn't think at the time what would be the response of the Shihans who defected with him as to what their reaction would be. As this student wouldn't fall under their umbrella, but would have a direct line bypassing them to Irie...as would any of this individual's students who chose to open a school.

    There's a few other details that have led to everyone becoming upset, but time will tell whether the anger felt will lead to the system fragmenting yet again or if things will cool.

    That's it for now,

    Eric L. Bookin

  11. #56
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    What does this mean in terms of the system on a whole? It sounds like it's been watered down and may not stand the test of time unlike the Classical systems which continue to be practiced after hundreds of years (ie: Sosuishitsu Ryu).
    "Qasim" Uriah Gardner

    "I'd like to think there are always... possibilities."

  12. #57
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    Default Hakko ryu

    Can someone explain a little about Hakkoryu? Is it koryu or some new form? I've bumped into the name a few times in some literture and also among tournament particpants who are usually associated with karate schools.

    This isn't a troll or anything. I'm just not sure where to start looking for credible sources on the style.

    Thanks,

    Geoff

  13. #58
    Charles Choi Guest

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    Geoff,

    You might find some useful information from the website here. This site would be a good place to start your search for credible instructors. The site seems to indicate that the birthdate of the method was 1941, as well as indicating that the Hakko-ryu method is the founder's synthesis of techniques from older martial curriculums (including Daito-ryu).

    I'd say Hakko-ryu is a modern art (based on its birth date). I will qualify by saying that I am not a practioner of the method and my response comes only from knowledge available off the net. Hope it helps!

    __________________________________
    Charles Choi
    http://hontaiyoshinryu.tripod.com/
    Last edited by Charles Choi; 11th February 2003 at 23:32.

  14. #59
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    Thanks for the site address. My suspicion is that those I've met of the Hakko ryu style would be discounted by the promoters of that site. Such is the state of traditional bujutsu in my area, though. Thanks for the link.

    Geoff

    PS I'm embarassed by the atrocious spelling of my first post. I'm not illiterate, just illegible.

  15. #60
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    Default Hakko Ryu

    I'm hoping to start training in Hakko Ryu, in England, soon. I've read that many instructors have been disassociated by the hombu. I'd be grateful of any advice on Hakko Ryu, and the implications of the break with the hombu ect.

    Graham Pluck

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