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Thread: Randori Competition!

  1. #1
    Johan Frendin Guest

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    Hello!

    I have heard that university branches in Japan regulary have randori competitions. What`s your opinion about this? Is it OK to have randori competition in your branch, district or country?

    Johan Frendin
    Gothenburg Branch
    Sweden

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    For those who dont understand the terminology, Randori=free sparring.


    My feeling on Randori is that it should be used as you would any other technique, and that it should not be the ultimate goal of your training (we train for self defence not competition fighting), so use it (we use it regularly in my branch, about 2 or 3 times a month we might have a randori session of about 30 mins) but don't make it the crux of your training sessions.

    I also encourage my students to practice randori after training, since then they can often enjoy it more (as Aosaka sensei said "Randori should be FUN").

    It is my understanding that there is no randori at international seminars, due to the high "ego level" of us europeans :shadowmas


    I have read (and been told) that Shorinji kempo holds a certain distinction (now alongside Kendo) of having someone die during randori competition..... Once a few years ago and once again more recently (both in university randori competitions), not necessarily a great distinction
    Steve Williams

    Harrow Branch.
    Shorinji Kempo UK.
    www.ukskf.org




  3. #3
    Johan Frendin Guest

    Default Randori competition

    I agree with your opinion that we should not practice for competition but for seldefence.

    But one of the major problems Shorinji Kempo is dealing with today is the that the art almost only attract "older" people. If we look on Shorinji Kempo globaly(not Japan and, Indonesia) most people that practice is 20+ and looking for "the filosofical side of the art". This is not wrong but Kaiso told us that Shorinji Kempos major goal was to attract young people, try to educate them and maybe change their hearts.
    We must be honest to each other and ask the question? How can we attract young kids, specially teenagers, to come to our dojos and start Shorinji Kempo insted of going to a tae kwon do or kickboxing class.

    Maybe local friendly randori competitions is the answer?!

    Johan Frendin
    Göteborg Branch
    Sweden

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    Default Re: Randori competition

    Originally posted by Johan Frendin
    But one of the major problems Shorinji Kempo is dealing with today is the that the art almost only attract "older" people. If we look on Shorinji Kempo globaly(not Japan and, Indonesia) most people that practice is 20+ and looking for "the filosofical side of the art". This is not wrong but Kaiso told us that Shorinji Kempos major goal was to attract young people, try to educate them and maybe change their hearts.
    We must be honest to each other and ask the question? How can we attract young kids, specially teenagers, to come to our dojos and start Shorinji Kempo insted of going to a tae kwon do or kickboxing class.
    I feel that Shorinji Kempo attracts people of all ages, here in the UK we have childrens classes (mine has more than 25 students, ages 6 to 14), we have a large number of university clubs, and even "normal" branches have a good age mix of kenshi.

    I know that Pontus runs a very very large university club there in Sweden (Stockholm Studenta Branch), [over 100 kenshi if I remember correctly?]

    I think that anyone who takes the trouble and makes the effort to attend a Shorinji Kempo class will generally stay to train, but those who want a "sport" orientated class will not stay.
    This is not a problem, Shorinji Kempo is not for all, it is mainly for those who are seriously seeking an effective method of self defence, to this end many of the "older" kenshi who you talk about have often trained in other styles (some competition based) and then come to Shorinji Kempo because they want something more than competition and points fighting, at my branch we have 2 Karate dan grades and 1 Judo dan grade who now train in Shorinji Kempo for these very reasons.
    Steve Williams

    Harrow Branch.
    Shorinji Kempo UK.
    www.ukskf.org




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  6. #5
    Johan Frendin Guest

    Default Randori competition

    What I meant with randori competition is not to make Shorinji Kempo to a sport that stresses the students to compete.
    What I want is to attract new members that never would end up in a Shorinji Kempo dojo in the first place. Young kids that maybe has problems i school and heading towards a wrong direction in life. In Sweden these kids don´t come to a Shorinji Kempo class.

    In Sweden almost every student is "socially correct" and is already living "half for your self and half for others".

    Why don´t we also try to attract this special group of potential members and try to influence them to change their lifes with the filosofi of Shorinji Kempo?

    If we want them to come to our dojos we must have a new strategi. This strategi can be takais with Embu division and also a randori division. I believe that this could strenghten Shorinji Kempo as a educational organisation in society.

    Best regards
    Johan Frendin
    Göteborg Branch
    Sweden

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    Default Easy ways to attract young people…

    Wear black hoods, carry swords, perform spectacular demonstrations of brick and board breaking, give everyone a yellow belt within 3 weeks of joining and have LOTS of competitions…

    Sorry. I realise that the above is overtly flippant, but I mean no disrespect. However since we're looking for easy ways of doing things, this was an easy way to demonstrate my point.

    People take up MA for all sorts of reasons and exhibit all sorts of expectations. People attach importance to different elements of MA practice based on those expectations. When they find that 'we' do not place the same importance they have a choice: 1- strive to understand why, 2- go off and find another dojo where the practitioners agree with their original expectations.

    A very promising young man came to my dojo recently. He'd had all kinds of experience with various disciplines. He was very keen and full of questions. He attended three or four sessions over the course of two weeks showing no sign of disappointment in what he found. Then one day, I saw him in the changing room donning a yellow belt. "That's a bit brave" I thought, and decided to have a word with him in the dojo. However, he wasn't going to my class, he was attending the shotokan class. I haven't seen him since.

    On what basis the shotokan teacher decided he deserved a yellow belt I'll probably never know. I am however certain that if I were to hand out grades indiscriminately, thereby pandering to such superficial expectations, I'd find it much easier to attract and keep students. However, I'm equally certain that I wouldn't find anyone on this forum that would agree that this was an acceptable means to and end.

    Making Shorinji Kempo more 'sport-like' would undoubtedly improve the attendance and recruiting figures. In addition the general lack of 'outside recognition' from official bodies (a point recently raised by Arai Sensei discussing the 'olympic' question) currently enjoyed by karate and judo would improve immensely. This is largely because sport is easier to understand, participate in and commit to.

    In the case of my student above, he was no doubt pleased with his yellow belt, the teacher was surely pleased with the extra financial income and I have every confidence that they'll be very happy together. However, Shorinji Kempo makes much greater demands of its students AND teachers. What would be the point in having twice as many students if you have to give up half the teachings to get them?

    Later,
    George Hyde

    UCL, ULU, SOAS Dojo
    British Shorinji Kempo Federation

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  9. #7
    Johan Frendin Guest

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    First. In Japan and Indonesia the have randoricompetition.
    Who started the competitions in the first place - What i have heard - Kaiso.

    My question was what you all think about randoricompetition?

    Second. My idea about randoricompetition is the possibility to attract a new group of possible members, it has nothing to do about simlify it´s teaching.
    I have been teaching Shorinji Kempo in Gothenburg Sweden for 10 years now and almost everybody that come to the dojo is universitystudents. How much demanding is it to teach higly intelectual students in kongo zen who all think the filosofi is ok? Is it not better to try to also attract people that really need the good social atmosphere in the dojo, the filosofy and the support of fellow students?

    Best Regards
    Johan Frendin
    Gothenburg Branch Sweden



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    You both make good points.

    To George: I don't think Johan was considering diluting the way we teach, or what we teach, he was just offering an opinion on a different way to teach (perhaps the weekends stress made you a bit confrontational )

    To Johan: I thought I answered your original question in my original post.
    Yes I do think (have been told) that Kaiso originally started randori competitions.
    Second, I seriously think that the addition of randori competition will not increase the membership, possibly if there was national or international competition it might, but to do this it would have to be highly publicised with great emphasis on the randori aspect, does this not then lose the Shorinji Kempo emphasis on self defence, philosophy and good technique, and shift the emphasis onto competition fighting.

    Most of the people who attend the randori competitions in Japan (to watch) are people who already have a connection to Shorinji Kempo, either kenshi or family/ friends of kenshi, so you will not be "hitting" a new audience anyway.

    It seems that the best way of getting new kenshi (of any age) is by demonstrations (lets face it, randori [unless done really well] does not make a good demonstration), and by word of mouth (i.e. my mate trained and suggested I come along). Therefore randori competition is not a good tool for attracting more kenshi.

    Please re-read my first post as to my views on randori in the branch (it is important to "do" randori regularly).

    Keep well
    Steve Williams

    Harrow Branch.
    Shorinji Kempo UK.
    www.ukskf.org




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    perhaps the weekends stress made you a bit confrontational )
    That wasn't my intention - apologies if taken as such.
    However, this is one thing (among many) that I feel strongly about. Here's a contribution I made in the Aikido forum on a similar point; the nature of 'martial qualities' and testing whether or not practice leads to practical skill...

    Gil refers to "the old -jutsu vs -do dialog" but it shouldn't be totally avoided. In the simplest terms, bujutsu is about self defence/protection and budo is about self realisation/development. Dedication to a 'do' form is apt to make us question its 'jutsu' qualities because doing so is part of that self realisation. By way of an answer, the competitive element is usually suggested as a means to 'test' the justu credibility of the art/student. In reality, the only thing that competition can truly test is the discipline's competitive application, which usually has little or no resemblance to the discipline itself.

    It is also important to make the distinction between competition and sport. The opportunity for mutually beneficial practice of a "competitive" nature should be encouraged in the dojo, but only for its random, fluid, spontaneous qualities. This approach is entirely in keeping with the 'do' elements of the discipline. Sport on the other hand is an entirely different matter. The objective of
    sport is to create champions, break records, etc.. by definition, the participants are looking for recognition of themselves from others. The objective of 'do' is self-recognition.

    As for the ultimate question... "Is what I'm doing REALLY going to help me defend myself?"... that is entirely a matter for the individual. Both competition and competitive practice can only simulate, not replicate a real combative situation. The performance of an individual in a fight or competition speaks only of the individual, not the discipline. So the question should be... "Is who I am, REALLY going to help me defend myself?"

    IMHO, exclusive dedication to the 'do' form will provide the individual with the ability to attain realisation of self and others. If your objective is to be supremely confident, efficient and decisive in any given combative situation, a total realisation of self is a prerequisite.

    Final note: If the objective of the discipline is to produce competition winners, then competition will test its ability to do so. If the objective is to provide the student with the opportunity to become a better person, this can be put to the test every day, without the need for judges.
    In my experience, teams, tournaments and trophies turn what is an essential element of martial training, and therefore an essential element of michi, into a sporting activity. The two are mutually exclusive.

    In SK we go to considerable lengths to emphasise the true meaning of budo by relying on the correct interpretation of 'bu' and highlighting its mistaken interpretations. A great deal more can be learned from an equally critical view of 'do'. Even when organised with the very best of intentions, competition panders to the ego. This contradicts 'do'.

    Any student, regardless of their original motivations and opinions, who gains skill in a martial discipline will at some point crave the opportunity to test and prove that skill. The most valuable lesson to be learned is to be found in relinquishing that desire.

    Later,
    George Hyde

    UCL, ULU, SOAS Dojo
    British Shorinji Kempo Federation

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  14. #10
    Johan Frendin Guest

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    These randoricompetitons I talk about should not led big trophies, special club teams etc.
    What I want is to encourage the students to alongside with the Embu divsion also try to participate in the randori division in a takai. It´s my opinion that they should not take part in the randoridivision only but also the Embu division. I believe that this could increase the atraction of new potential members that comes and look at the taikai.

    Our taikais in Sweden has a very friendly atmosphere and a don´t think that a randoricompetiton can change this.

    Johan Frendin
    Göteborg Branch, Sweden




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    Johan, I understand your motivation and I realise that you have very good intentions. However, as I said previously, there are lots of ways that we could change what we do in order to attract more new students, in the same manner as some karate and judo organisations, which we should not do for obvious reasons. However, even assuming that randori competitions would help, conducting them in the 'spirit' of Shorinji Kempo is not as easy as you assume.

    Whilst there will inevitably be exceptions, when two people find themselves in a 'ring', in front of an audience, witnessed by their friends and their branch master, wearing full 'protective' gear, it becomes a win or lose situation. Their training partner becomes an opponent. In such situations, the wellbeing and development of the other person is not a consideration. Suddenly people begin to think that ken-protectors (designed to protect the fist against the do) are actually boxing gloves that allow for full contact to jodan. Head-protectors (primarily designed to limit contact damage when falling to the floor) suddenly become capable of sustaining full contact keri-waza.

    Steve will bare witness to the extremely disappointing scenes that have arisen in BSKF randori competitions in the past. A total lack of consideration between competing individuals has lead to serious injuries and contention over judging decisions has lead to embarrassing scenes of argument and protest. For some people, despite their high grade (or perhaps even because of it) the egotistical need to win (assisted by group pressure), overrides every other aspect of Shorinji Kempo philosophy. Of course, this may just be a BSKF thing, but I doubt it.

    Randori features in every session in my dojo. As the instructor it is my foremost responsibility to ensure that everyone conducts him/herself in a manner that encourages mutual respect, co-operation and learning, thereby ensuring mutual safety. This is most important when dealing with beginners who have to acquire the necessary understanding that underpins Shorinji Kempo teachings. The unavoidable trappings of randori competitions undermine these teachings. People coming to Shorinji Kempo as a direct result of seeing randori competition, are likely to be motivated by a desire to compete in a tournament setting. On discovering the manner in which they SHOULD conduct themselves in competition, they will be ultimately disappointed or instead, simply chose to ignore the guidance.

    Budo is supposed to be the contest between the practitioner and him/herself. Randori competition externalises this contest and ultimately distracts the practitioner from the true purpose of budo. We haven't seen a randori competition in the UK for some years now, but I suspect that despite past experience, we will see it again.

    It is sad but true to say, that the only thing that history teaches us is that we do not learn from history.

    Later,

    PS: If any of you are wondering - yes, I do realise that much of my opinion is in stark contrast to that of Mizuno Sensei and one day I'll have to 'discuss' it with him. Now THAT'S a contest!
    George Hyde

    UCL, ULU, SOAS Dojo
    British Shorinji Kempo Federation

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  17. #12
    alexandertilly Guest

    Default randori competitions

    Dear Shorinji Kempo colleagues,

    - the argument that competition is contradictory to the goal of Shorinji Kempo would also hit our embucompetitions. We try to beat other couples by performing better embus. And still You do not want to ban these competitions.

    - so it must be the safety-aspect that worries You? Good protective gear, good rules, good judging and good manners are things that could prevent this.

    - Many kenshi with little or no experience from randori competitions or of using their skills in reality will get very tensed in a competition situation. Not to mention how they would react in reality. This tension and fear would be reduced with experience, and hence reduce the risk of injuries since it would allow better control of the techniques and their fear. So what you describe as an argument against competing, I prefer to see as an argument for competitions; the level and experience of Shorinji Kempo kenshis randori and of real situations is generally small, and this is shown by the way they react in competitions. It can be more dangerous to pretend to be able to defend oneself and to avoid confrontations with ones beliefs, than to try to gain some kind of realistic experience.

    - if You practise something 2-3 times per week it is impossible to become any good at it, no matter what it happens to be You practise.

    - the argument that competition is very different from reality is true. But the same could be said about hokei practise and any other form of practise. We must remember that any form of practise but real self defense is different from reality, and focus on how we can develop our ability in self defense by these forms of practise. The essential benefit with randori practise is that it allows us to develop approprate reaction patterns to UNKNOWN attacks, and this aspect is a lot like reality.

    - the uncertainty of the attacks stresses us more than hokei, and this another important similarity to reality, believe me, I have worked as a bodyguard and as a bouncer for several years, and reality is very, very different from the dojo.

    - randori competitions could attract young people who are not attracted by the philosophy of Kongo Zen. If we want to change society we contribute more to this by changing people on the wrong way, with no initial interest in personal dvelopment. These people are attracted by strength and power, so we use this to gain there respect. Then we can gradually make them understand what life is really about.

    I look forward to hear Your response,

    best regards,

    Alex Tilly,

    Shorinji Kempo Stockholm Södra,

    Sweden

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    I strongly agree with George's excellant summary of the arguments against randori competitions. Non-competitive randori is an essential part of regular practice. But competitive randori brings out the worst in people, both in terms of attitude and technique.

    What's the difference? In competitive randori, your only goal is to beat the other person. In non-competitive randori, you can continue the focus on mutual improvement that is fundamental to our practice. To put it in more practical terms: In competitive practice, if I realize that my opponent makes a consistent mistake that makes him vulnerable, I take advantage of it and hope that he never fixes the problem. In non-competitive randori, I have nothing to gain by beating my partner repeatedly and everything to gain by helping him to correct the problem. As a result of helping him, he becomes a better practice partner and my own skills can improve.

    I have seen only one SK randori competition and was appalled by what I saw - bad attitudes and bad technique. Good protective gear, good rules, and good judging were in place but they did't overcome the negatives.

    I find the issue of bad technique during randori to be almost as much of a concern as bad attitude. Randori is the application of hokei, not some completely separate kind of practice. When we practice randori (non-competitively!) during class, I expect people to actually use the techniques that we regularly practice, not to start randomly striking at each other. In the randori competition I saw, out of dozens of attacks and counter-attacks, I saw only two cases where I saw the defender execute a recognizable basic defensive technique. Of course, this can be a problem in non-competitive practice too.

    I don't see any major inconsistency with embu competition. Embu practice focuses completely on mutual improvement - to get good at embu, you and your partner have to work very hard together to improve as individuals and as a pair. This should foster a very different attitude than competitive randori. But I think as teachers, we still need to take care to emphasize that overly competitive attitudes can spoil any event, including an embukai. My personal preference would be to focus on embu as a demonstration of mutual skills rather than as a competitive event, but I don't think the competition creates major problems here.

    As for some of the other arguments in favor of randori competitions, I think we can learn to deal with uncertainty of the attack in non-competitive randori just as well as we can in competitive randori - even better if we assume that in the non-competive situation, the partners feel free to help each other learn to recognize the attack sooner. It is true that competitive situations develop a different level of stress than non-competitive ones. But I still believe that the negatives that are associated with dealing with that kind of stress (i.e., the way it changes peoples attitudes) outweigh the positives.

    I understand the argument that randori could be a way of attracting new people to SK - not for the reason that we should do everything we can to get as many members as possible, but that we do tend to self-select for people who are already receptive to our philosophy and not necessarily the people who need it the most. On the other hand, I have dealt with a number of overly competitive jerks over the years and seen how miserable thay can make practice for everyone who has to work with them. In the end, I would rather not change the attitude of practice just to accomodate them.

    It is interesting that this whole issue has been a long-standing subject of tension and debate in the SK world. We aren't the first to have this discussion - I know teachers who were involved in this same debate many years ago in Japan concerning randori competitions between university clubs.

    Gary Dolce
    Ann Arbor Branch
    WSKO
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    http://www.shorinjikempo.com

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  20. #14
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    Hi Alex, good to see you here

    Just a couple of points:
    "- the argument that competition is contradictory to the goal of Shorinji Kempo would also hit our embucompetitions. We try to beat other couples by performing better embus. And still You do not want to ban these competitions."
    The whole point of embu is to develop good technique and the mutual development of the embu partners, ok when we compete we try to win, but we are winning as a team by good technique, not by beating your opponent to a pulp.

    "- so it must be the safety-aspect that worries You? Good protective gear, good rules, good judging and good manners are things that could prevent this."
    Have to agree with your statement here, but George raises a good point dealing with this also.

    "- Many kenshi with little or no experience from randori competitions or of using their skills in reality will get very tensed in a competition situation. Not to mention how they would react in reality. This tension and fear would be reduced with experience, and hence reduce the risk of injuries since it would allow better control of the techniques and their fear. So what you describe as an argument against competing, I prefer to see as an argument for competitions; the level and experience of Shorinji Kempo kenshis randori and of real situations is generally small, and this is shown by the way they react in competitions. It can be more dangerous to pretend to be able to defend oneself and to avoid confrontations with ones beliefs, than to try to gain some kind of realistic experience"
    Totally agree, but it does not have to be competition that reduces/ eliminates that tension. Randori regularly in the branch will have a similar effect, as long as you are not always training with the same partner.

    "- if You practise something 2-3 times per week it is impossible to become any good at it, no matter what it happens to be You practise."
    Sorry have to totally disagree with this one, you will become better at anything you do so long as you practice, obviously the more you practice the quicker you will become good, as an example: many people go skiing (myself included), for only 1 or 2 weeks a year, after a few years (about 3 or 4 weeks worth) they will be extremely competant skiers, I would ski most black runs with only slight difficulty (dont like moguls )you should see my wife---no fear on any runs :smokin: (well she has a few "skiing years" on me...)

    "- the argument that competition is very different from reality is true. But the same could be said about hokei practise and any other form of practise. We must remember that any form of practise but real self defense is different from reality, and focus on how we can develop our ability in self defense by these forms of practise. The essential benefit with randori practise is that it allows us to develop approprate reaction patterns to UNKNOWN attacks, and this aspect is a lot like reality"
    Have to agree with this as well, but again this does not have to mean competition, the best practice is to insult people outside the pub on a Saturday night

    "believe me, I have worked as a bodyguard and as a bouncer for several years, and reality is very, very different from the dojo."
    Always thought you were a bit of a nutter Yes reallity is a whole new experience from the "sterilised" dojo atmosphere, but we train to try to make it as real as possible.

    "- randori competitions could attract young people who are not attracted by the philosophy of Kongo Zen. If we want to change society we contribute more to this by changing people on the wrong way, with no initial interest in personal dvelopment. These people are attracted by strength and power, so we use this to gain there respect. Then we can gradually make them understand what life is really about."
    Agree with this, and have seen it happen, but the difficulty would be making them watch a randori competition in the first place, without advertising it in such a way that it would seem that we are another "sport Karate" outfit.

    Finally as George and Gary said: "I have seen ........SK randori competition and was appalled by what I saw - bad attitudes and bad technique. Good protective gear, good rules, and good judging were in place but they did't overcome the negatives."
    I was not really appalled, (I took part in a few, and was as guilty as others of the "ego high"), but there were injuries (as George said) which were really un-needed, and could have been prevented by a little control.


    Controlled agression is a very important part of Martial art training, it is when there is a total lack of control that people get hurt unnecessarily.




    p.s. Alex, you still want that jacket, e-mail me your address....
    Steve Williams

    Harrow Branch.
    Shorinji Kempo UK.
    www.ukskf.org




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  22. #15
    alexandertilly Guest

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    Hello again,

    - we practise competitive randori in our branch, and have branch competitions, and it has made us develop randori practise a lot. Contrary to the fear that it would result in egoistic concerns and unwillingness to aid eachother with feed-back, randori practise becomes more focused and fun. We have developed ways of learning how to use basic techniques during stress, about tactics, about which techniques really works, and to cope with stress. Most important we have improved the ability to rely on patterns of reactions and reflexes that are appropriate to fullspeed, unknown attacks. It reveals each and everybodys weak spots, and we discuss every match together and try to learn from it. We had many doubts before we started this experiment, but with experience from judo and boxing and other competitive martial arts, we have made it work together, and it improves our techniques in many ways. Maybe this ideal situation is more difficult to attain in a larger scale, I don´t think it would be impossible.

    - If the competitions You watched looked bad, but the kenshis could use good techniques during pracise of randori, doesn´t this show that the fact that it was competition actually destroyed their techniques. Isn´t it plausible that this was due to lack of experience to cope with large amounts of stress? Or to much emphasis on wanting to win, or fear of losing? All this will occur in a real situation. That is why we need similar experiences.

    - The goal of randori competition would not be to beat Your oppnonet to a pulp Steve, but to learn if You can use them in a more than usual realistic situation. We practise three rounds, kosha-shusha, shusha-kosha, and the third round free randori. Good techiques work, and bad don´t. Speed, timing and an empty relaxed mind that allow You to react intuitively work. This state of mind is best trained during randori, and most efficiently during competition. I have many friends who are top level martial artists with lots of competitive experience, they have the ability to react appropriately in a street fight. Arai sensei, Yamasaki sensei and Aosaka sensei were successful in randori competitions, and that gave them valuable experiences.

    - That something hasn´t worked in the past is not a good argument that it will not work in the future. The rules can be adjusted, rules that punishes bad behaviour. We use rules that punishes all signs of misbehaving. Not doing gassho rei, turning ones back to the opponent after a strike, arguing with the judge, etc. It is just a matter of learning to control ones immediate impulses. In the beginning we had problems, now everybody behaves well and we have no injuries. A lot of the responsibility is also on the judges.

    - OK, Steve You can become fairly good at something by practising 2-3 times a month, but not excellent.

    - Insulting people outside the pub (or getting insulted..)cannot be included in practise, but competitive experience would improve Your chances on a Saturday night...

    - My point wasn´t mainly that the audience of the competitions would join us, but that the fact that we would have competitions, as a goal in training, alongside embu and gradings, and the fact that we would have greater skills in randori then, could attract young people that we don´t attract today.


    As little as You, I wan´t to see the possible bad effects of competitions in randori. But I think, contrary to some of You, that it is an obstacle possible to overcome.


    Best regards,

    Alex Tilly,
    Shorinji Kempo Stockholm Södra
    Sweden


    P.S. Steve, nice little figures in your text, trying to draw attention from your arguments?
    My adress is,

    Alexander Tilly
    Skolvägen 4
    121 32 Enskededalen
    Sweden

    alexandertilly@hotmail.com

    let me know what you your accountnumber so I can pay for the jacket, or let med know what you want from Sweden and I´ll send it ti you. D.S

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