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Thread: Mas Oyama for real?

  1. #31
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    Hello everyone,

    I believe there were some things left out as Bluming also put down two of the greatest Judoka to come out of Europe, Anton Geesink and William Ruska.

    He also put down Loek Hollander one of his ex reps!

    He also claimed Ashihara Kancho stole his Karate system and that Ashihara was a drunk and died penniless. Truth be told Ashihara may or may not have been a drunk but he died from Lou gherigs disease and he was far from penniless.

    Additionally NONE of those people in Florida that supposedly visited Bluming in Seattle are in his organization? Wow they were gone within a year!

    Jaaks Van de velde is no longer with Bluming and he was his right hand man during all that crazy talk.


    And a correction to you Antonio, Bluming didn't call Oyata Seiyu a fairy, he stated "Another Jap fairy tale" when oyata couldn't knock out his uke while watching the out takes of the documentary. I believe a little Moderator from E-Budo told someone this...

    I tell you what, my head would get big if someone was talking shi-to about me along with the greats like Ashihara, S. Oyama, Y. Oyama, T Nakamura, W Ruska, Anton Geesink and Loek Hollander, and Oyata.

    You really can't believe everything you read!

    Additionally I have footage of Ashihara Kancho teaching and demonstrating Karate and Bluming teaching a Karate seminar and there is no comparison.


    Regards,

    Mike Mitchell

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bustillo, A.
    Bluming
    Yes, I trained them so good that the CRAZY family (The Gracies) with their big mouths...

    Bluming
    Ashihara became one of my students..
    (that;s a laugh.)

    Q
    Do you remember Shigeru Oyama?
    Bluming
    Oh yes, he’s an asshole.

    Bluming
    Yeah, because I don’t need the money.
    ------------------------------------------------


    A. B. writes

    Robert, that article helps prove my point, it does make interesting reading but it's hard to always take him seriously. If you are asking me about the Florida episode it's way too long to get into and not worth the bother. Suffice to say that his version of it is a flat out lie. Therefore, knowing first-hand what went on, it makes it difficult to rely on what he says about everyone else.

    Nonetheless, go ask Nakamura , Shigeru O. and the Ashihara people what is incorrect.

    Bottom line he is primarily known as judo man anyway ( H. Cook, Shotokan Precise History, p 261 ) Btw Bluming also had a few choice words about Oyata when he saw the outakes of the documentary where Oyayta couldn't make his stuff work over and ioover and over again.
    Something to the effect...
    "it figures, a fairy."

    So, should we believe everything he says? Should we beleive everything we read?



    Note. Don't ask me where I got that piece of info when he comments on Oyata's PP. because I prefer not to tell.

    I am also aware of his opinion and comments about my teacher and which moderator said something.

    So how much of what Bluming says about Mas Oyama is untrue? Some of it? All of it?

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maddog Mitchell

    1) You really can't believe everything you read!

    2) Additionally I have footage of Ashihara Kancho teaching and demonstrating Karate and Bluming teaching a Karate seminar and there is no comparison.

    Mike Mitchell
    Mike,

    1) Exactly my point about stuff written on Oyama and his history.
    2) Does anyone know what grade, if any, Bluming got in Karate? Or at least how long he actually trained in Kyokushin?

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Basher
    Mike,

    2) Does anyone know what grade, if any, Bluming got in Karate? Or at least how long he actually trained in Kyokushin?
    If I recall right he was a 6 Dan when he left IKO back in1967. He goes by JUDAN now.
    LeTerian Bradley

    There are no excuses on the mat, in the cage, or on the battlefeild! Train wisely!

  5. #35
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    Robert,

    I have no doubt that Bluming was a Bad arse in his days. I mean he was big, trained under one of my first Martial Arts idols as a kid Donn Draeger and he trained with Mas Oyama. However I think his size and his Judo ability helped him through the whole Karate ordeal.

    What is true and what is false who knows. I will say this about Oyama Masutatsu, I've read Blumings autobio, tadashi nakamuras, hideyuki ashiharas autobio and the Bouncer article by S. Oyama, if you've read all that it surely paints a clearer picture of Mas Oyama.

    As for Bluming I think he may have stretched his story a wee bit, then again I wasn't there and if you check some of his dates neither was he LOL.

    I know that if someone tends to bad mouth just about everyone he or she is usually trying to just get attention.

    Regards,

    Mike Mitchell

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bustillo, A.
    Bluming
    Yes, I trained them so good that the CRAZY family (The Gracies) with their big mouths...
    Maybe it's just me but it would seem you have misrepresented what Bluming was saying there.


    Bluming was asked this:

    Q
    You really train your fighters well, it seems many fighters from Holland are on top

    Bluming
    Yes, I trained them so good that the CRAZY family (The Gracies) with their big mouths NEVER wanted to fight Chris Dolman no matter how many times he tried to get them on the mat in Japan. That goes now also for Sem Schilt. I cannot image that any of the Gracies can beat them. But the Gracies are great showman and surely no pushovers.
    _________________
    When Bluming refers to “them” he is talking about the fighters from Holland trained…he is not claiming to have trained the Gracies.

    And here again it seems you left out certain aspects of what Bluming was saying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bustillo, A.
    Bluming
    Ashihara became one of my students..
    Here is what he was actually saying:


    Q
    Tell us about your style of Karate, how it developed and your experiences with Oyama.

    Bluming
    Well, in the typical karate fight there are all the corner referees and the referee and all the whistling and screaming and then they have to stop, go again, then apart and go again, round after round, which is ridiculous. It has nothing to do with fighting.

    Once I am very close, I want to get the son-a-bitch down, and then do groundwork, and that’s what I showed Oyama in ’66, and he nearly had a heart attack. But he allowed me to teach at his dojo, that’s why Ashihara became one of my students and Peter McLean and a few other guys, and that’s how I fought the little, (what the hell was his name again?) oh, Fujihira, who was the lightweight champion, and later lightweight world champion in Thai boxing, (But of course he was only 63 or 65 kilos, and I at the time was 102 kilos).

    He says “he allowed me to teach at his dojo”….is that true? Maybe Bluming meant they did some cross training together or something along those lines…..or maybe he was just blowing the whole thing out of proportion to make himself sound like a hot shot….




    Quote Originally Posted by Bustillo, A.
    Q
    Do you remember Shigeru Oyama?
    Bluming
    Oh yes, he’s an asshole.

    Bluming
    Yeah, because I don’t need the money.

    I am not sure why you singled out the above statements. The first one is just his opinion about someone and the second may or may not be true. Only Bluming could really know if he needs the money or not.



    ------------------------------------------------


    Quote Originally Posted by Bustillo, A.
    A. B. writes

    Robert, that article helps prove my point, it does make interesting reading but it's hard to always take him seriously.
    1) If you are asking me about the Florida episode it's way too long to get into and not worth the bother. Suffice to say that his version of it is a flat out lie. Therefore, knowing first-hand what went on, it makes it difficult to rely on what he says about everyone else.

    2) Nonetheless, go ask Nakamura , Shigeru O. and the Ashihara people what is incorrect.

    3) Bottom line he is primarily known as judo man anyway ( H. Cook, Shotokan Precise History, p 261 )
    1) Not really interested in it, however, it’s obvious there is some bad blood between you.
    2) Actually I wanted to hear your version of it since you said “Bluming's book is an interesting read but not a reliable source.” I was wondering which parts you know for a fact to be untrue.
    3) But he did train with Oyama and has rank under his system correct?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maddog Mitchell
    Robert,

    1) I have no doubt that Bluming was a Bad arse in his days.
    2) I mean he was big, trained under one of my first Martial Arts idols as a kid Donn Draeger and he trained with Mas Oyama.
    3) However I think his size and his Judo ability helped him through the whole Karate ordeal.

    4) What is true and what is false who knows. I will say this about Oyama Masutatsu, I've read Blumings autobio, tadashi nakamuras, hideyuki ashiharas autobio and the Bouncer article by S. Oyama, if you've read all that it surely paints a clearer picture of Mas Oyama.

    5) As for Bluming I think he may have stretched his story a wee bit, then again I wasn't there and if you check some of his dates neither was he LOL.

    6) I know that if someone tends to bad mouth just about everyone he or she is usually trying to just get attention.

    Regards,

    Mike Mitchell
    1) It would seem he was good at what he did.
    2) I have several hours of video footage of Dreager…..the guy was awesome.
    3) Probably, and given the comments he has about the short comings of JKA type Karate I am sure they weren’t ready for the likes of him.
    4) True. I also met and spoke to Oyama back in the late 80’s. I kind of got the same impression others have stated...and that is Oyama didn’t do much to extinguish many of the tall tales about him, he also seemed like a bit of a “thug” and not the virtuous karate man that everyone painted him out to be. He seemed more like a gangster in a gi than anything else. What I thought was really odd was the fact that Oyama was 100% Korean and Koreans and Japanese REALLY dislike each other and yet Oyama tried to be more “Japanese” than the Japanese themselves are……over compensating? Perhaps…..strange? Very.
    5) Most “celebrities” do.
    6) Well Bluming doesn’t have a whole lot of good things to say about others that is for sure.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Basher
    4) True. I also met and spoke to Oyama back in the late 80’s. I kind of got the same impression others have stated...and that is Oyama didn’t do much to extinguish many of the tall tales about him, he also seemed like a bit of a “thug” and not the virtuous karate man that everyone painted him out to be. He seemed more like a gangster in a gi than anything else. What I thought was really odd was the fact that Oyama was 100% Korean and Koreans and Japanese REALLY dislike each other and yet Oyama tried to be more “Japanese” than the Japanese themselves are……over compensating? Perhaps…..strange? Very.
    It wasn't a well known fact that he was Korean.
    You can also look at Rikidozan, 100% Korean. The Japanese LOVED him. He wa herald as a national hero (for his matches where he beat Americans, very few pple knew about the kayfabe) The general public didn't know he was Korean until sometime aftered he died!!!
    LeTerian Bradley

    There are no excuses on the mat, in the cage, or on the battlefeild! Train wisely!

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asia
    1) It wasn't a well known fact that he was Korean.
    2) You can also look at Rikidozan, 100% Korean. The Japanese LOVED him. He wa herald as a national hero (for his matches where he beat Americans, very few pple knew about the kayfabe) The general public didn't know he was Korean until sometime aftered he died!!!
    1) I don’t see how…Oyama had a Korean accent when he spoke Japanese….hell even I noticed it.
    2) Actually most people knew he was from Korea. Japanese have a saying “put a lid on what stinks”….meaning cover it up. Just as the home run record holder in Japan is actually Taiwanese……most Japanese people know this but still say a “Japanese person” holds the home run record. There is a “Japanese” judoka in PRIDE & K-1 now that is actually Korean….he was born in Japan though. He wanted to join the Japanese Olympic Judo told but was told he couldn’t because he was “Korean”. So he went to S. Korea, got on their team and won a gold medal……now the Japanese Olympic team wants him…..go figure.
    But getting into why Japanese people do things like this and have “selective memory” is a whole other can of worms.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Basher
    1) I don’t see how…Oyama had a Korean accent when he spoke Japanese….hell even I noticed it.
    2) Actually most people knew he was from Korea. Japanese have a saying “put a lid on what stinks”….meaning cover it up. Just as the home run record holder in Japan is actually Taiwanese……most Japanese people know this but still say a “Japanese person” holds the home run record. There is a “Japanese” judoka in PRIDE & K-1 now that is actually Korean….he was born in Japan though. He wanted to join the Japanese Olympic Judo told but was told he couldn’t because he was “Korean”. So he went to S. Korea, got on their team and won a gold medal……now the Japanese Olympic team wants him…..go figure.
    But getting into why Japanese people do things like this and have “selective memory” is a whole other can of worms.

    I agree with you but I still think the majority of the pple didn't know when Oyama first rose to fame. I use Riki as an example because I remember talking wrestling with my Japanese friends and the majority of them didn't know he was Korean either. And these were guys that loved the PURORESU more than I did.
    LeTerian Bradley

    There are no excuses on the mat, in the cage, or on the battlefeild! Train wisely!

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asia
    I agree with you but I still think the majority of the pple didn't know when Oyama first rose to fame. I use Riki as an example because I remember talking wrestling with my Japanese friends and the majority of them didn't know he was Korean either. And these were guys that loved the PURORESU more than I did.
    I can see most younger people now not knowing much about Rikidozan. He is a pretty old figure in Pro Wrestling.He was actually stabbed & killed by some gangsters.....gee maybe Oyama had him killed after all. Because of the latest tension with North Korea there was a TV special about Rikidozan that aired not too long ago. They talked about his life and him being Korean. Rikidozan was actually North Korean so I guess that is why they made some connection. All this talk about North Korea makes me think of the Team America movie with that fat little Kim Jun Il singing “I’m so wonwee”……and keep repeating "Do you know how F****** busy I am!?"

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Basher
    I can see most younger people now not knowing much about Rikidozan. He is a pretty old figure in Pro Wrestling.He was actually stabbed & killed by some gangsters.....gee maybe Oyama had him killed after all.
    You're not the first to think that. The guys I was talking with are my age and older (I'm in the 30 club, yeah I know still a youngster yadda yadda yadda)


    Because of the latest tension with North Korea there was a TV special about Rikidozan that aired not too long ago. They talked about his life and him being Korean. Rikidozan was actually North Korean so I guess that is why they made some connection. All this talk about North Korea makes me think of the Team America movie with that fat little Kim Jun Il singing “I’m so wonwee”……and keep repeating "Do you know how F****** busy I am!?"
    They released a movie about Rikidozan (Yeokdosan) last year along with one on Oyama. They are good movies but very far removed form acutal history. In the Rikidozan movie he has a match with Masahiko Kimura (IMURA on the translation, the part was played by Masakatsu Funaki) after the match, where he beats the hell out of Kimura for real, a greasy head gangster ask to get revenge on Riki. I am guessing the person was supposed to be Oyama.
    LeTerian Bradley

    There are no excuses on the mat, in the cage, or on the battlefeild! Train wisely!

  13. #43
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    Just out of interest, Rikidozan was stabbed to death by a young Korean Yakuza soldier. Apparently after Rikidozan retired, he made rather a nuisance of himself trying to pick up waitresses at burger bars and then when they refused his advances he'd beat them and anyone else who got in the way to intervene, including U.S. Servicemen.

    During the 50's, there weren't many americanized places to hang out and one of the main places was a burger bar and grill in central Tokyo (Ginza if I remember correctly) which was American run, but fronted with Japanese money. Lots of yaks frequented the place.

  14. #44
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    Actually, this story of Rikidozan's death has got more versions than the history of hapkido. I made the acquaintance of the "bodyguard" of the yakuza who killed Rikidozan. He is from one of the most venerable bakuto gangs (the bakuto were the original yakuza - the gamblers - and even today, they have a prestige far beyond their now few numbers - sort of like TSKSR in a meeting of gendai ryu). My recollection is that he, then a young guy, was accompanying a Japanese yakuza, and Rikidozan tried to bully this diminutive guy while passing him in the restroom. One going in-one going out. The gangster stabbed him in the gut, and Rikidozan, drunk, went out and kept drinking - stuffing a napkin in the hole in his belly. Died of peritonitis.

    For whatever it is worth, the same man informed me that Kimura had purchased a gun and was on his way from Kyushu to shoot Rikidozan (for sucker punching him and knocking him out in the worked match) when the yakuza did Kimura the accidental favor of killing him. Rikidozan's death had nothing to do with Kimura, however.

    All hearsay, but from someone close to the scene

    Kimura was, by the way, a friend of Oyama, and studied some karate with him. He refers to this in his biography. He returned to Brazil some years after the infamous match with Helio Gracie and fought Waldemar Santana, who in addition to his skill in BJJ was also quite skilled in capoeira. Kimura describes a head-butting/gouging/kicking/both men on the ropes battle, in which his karate helped as much as his judo.



    best

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellis Amdur
    Actually, this story of Rikidozan's death has got more versions than the history of hapkido. I made the acquaintance of the "bodyguard" of the yakuza who killed Rikidozan. He is from one of the most venerable bakuto gangs (the bakuto were the original yakuza - the gamblers - and even today, they have a prestige far beyond their now few numbers - sort of like TSKSR in a meeting of gendai ryu). My recollection is that he, then a young guy, was accompanying a Japanese yakuza, and Rikidozan tried to bully this diminutive guy while passing him in the restroom. One going in-one going out. The gangster stabbed him in the gut, and Rikidozan, drunk, went out and kept drinking - stuffing a napkin in the hole in his belly. Died of peritonitis.

    This is basically the same account as a Japanese Newspaper article I read about his death.

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