Likes Likes:  0
Page 1 of 13 1 2 3 4 5 11 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 188

Thread: go no kata reference material?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    1,010
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default go no kata reference material?

    somewhere at the beginning of this year (or end of last year) someone here in the Netherlands performed the go-no-kata. The article about this mentions that he came across a reference to the kata in The Complete 7 Katas of Judo by Kawaishi. I've read the book and the kata is indeed mentioned, but nothing else.

    Is there any material that shows how the kata is supposed to go? My searches have turned up nothing except that it is no longer practiced by the kodokan. One or two organizations in the US seem to have it on their exam list, but some articles claim that the US practiced version is nowhere near the article.

    If anyone can help........

    (and just prevent people from asking: no, I don't mean go-no-sen)
    Rogier van der Peijl

    REAL SCOTSMEN WEAR KILTS because sheep can hear a zipper at 500 yards!

    Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
    Ah, what a cutie, Rogier. I'll bet a lot of ladies in Netherlands are mourning because you are out of circulation now!

  2. #2
    MarkF Guest

    Default

    and just prevent people from asking: no, I don't mean go-no-sen
    I am not asking, but even this kata is no longer part of the official syllabus and has been relagated to the rest of the go-kyo, but it is pretty well documented by Kawaishi.

    I've read the book, too, and actually became excited the first time I read the book. He may have used the reference to start a search for it. Are there any other sources mentioned? Is there video? There isn't much to go on so his sources for the material need to be known.

    TP leggett learned the kata (he said it was a "poor attempt" which it may be if you have been doing nothing but yielding judo for sixty years[at the time he performed it, the 1950s). I believe there are a few pictures on the Budokwai web site.

    The one person on the web who claims to have video of himself doing the Go no Kata, George Parulski, admitted to me it was "bits and pieces" of the kata he learned from his invisible teacher. The late Yamantaka bought the CD, and there was no "go no kata" on it," and I doubt his version of the actual go no sen no kata is even close.

    In fact, it has been done so infrequently, I can think of only one person who may still do it, if he did it at all, John Cornish of theBudokwai .

    I would love to see the performance of this kata. It is pretty easy to spot as it proves nothing is absolute, not even 'jiu.'


    Mark

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Posts
    511
    Likes (received)
    3

    Default

    Hi Guy's,

    As far as I know the go no kata is not illustrated or described in books on judo.

    The only other go no kata I have ever heard of is one of the oldest judo kata's. It the opposite/completion to the ju no kata so to speak.
    I even heard that a kodokan teacher has written a book on it. The Kodokan doesn't respond to answers for information about this kata. There is a describtion of this kata somewhere on the net, can't remember where.

    I am familiar with Kawaishi's reference to the kata. There is, I suppose a slight chance that he was referring to the atemi-kata (name eludes me at the moment) of the Kodokan.
    I think Kawaishi's son lives in France somewhere and he teaches judo. I quess he's the one to know about these things.

    Best regards,

    Johan Smits

    ps - Great to see the board restored!!

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,165
    Likes (received)
    335

    Default

    Guys-

    There was an article about Go no Kata in an issue of Hoplite a few years back (Journal of the the International Hoplology Society). It described the kata and the sensei that demonstrated it, I believe at the Kodokan.

    I will try to dig it up and give you some more info.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    1,010
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    would be great if you can find it...!!
    Rogier van der Peijl

    REAL SCOTSMEN WEAR KILTS because sheep can hear a zipper at 500 yards!

    Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
    Ah, what a cutie, Rogier. I'll bet a lot of ladies in Netherlands are mourning because you are out of circulation now!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,165
    Likes (received)
    335

    Default Go no Kata Article

    "The Go no Kata: An Introduction to the Forgotten Form of Kodokan Judo

    Antony Cundy

    In 1998, the 51st annual meeting and tournament of the Doyukai (kanji here "Association For Friends of the Way") was held at the Kodokan in Tokyo, Japan. There, Ochiai Toshiyasu, 7th dan, and Taniguchi Yutaka, 4th dan, presented an exhibition of the Go no Kata (kanji here - "Forms of Hardness/Inflexibility/Strength). It was the first time in 50 years that these kata had been seen in the cradle of modern judo. The re-emergence of the Go no Kata is a significant event in the world of modern judo, where it represents an important historical link between classical practices of jujutsu and the all-round educational emphasis of Kano Jigoro's Kodokan Judo. This kata was reckoned by late 9th dan Kuhara Yoshiyuki to be the oldest original kata in the Kodokan.

    The Go no Kata in practice is a complex of prearranged movement patterns, executed by two practitioners who engage in short bursts of strength matching exercises, which are then concluded by the application of a throwing or choking technique. For example, in the first technique, the exponent's take a grapplers embrace, and then attempt to push each other backwards; they then reverse their efforts and attempt to pull each other forward. The pushing procedure is then resumed until the predetermined winner breaks from the pushing action, and utilizes his partner's momentum to execute a shoulder throw. For exhibition purposes, the timing for the push-pull changes is rougly decided beforehand, however when done in normal training, the timing is not predetermined. This kind of semi-cooperative resistance training is not only an excellent conditioning exercise, but forces the practitioners to act decisively under intensive physical and mental pressure. This type of training differs from the standard Ju no Kata (kanji - Forms of Suppleness/Flexibility/Gentleness), which more typify Kodokan training. The Ju no Kata are a fully cooperative kata.

    In all, seven distinct techniques are practiced. There of these are repeated with different entering patterns. This then brings the total to ten.

    The names of the techniques are:

    1: Seioinage
    2: Ushirogoshi
    3: Sukuinage
    4: Seionage
    5: Ukigoshi
    6: Hadakajime koshikudaki
    7: Tobikoshi ukigoshi
    8: Osoto otoshi
    9: Ushirogoshi
    10: Kataguruma

    The Go no Kata are believed to have been taught privately by Kodokan Judo Founder Kano Jigoro in the earliest days of Kodokan Judo. They are said to have been used as warming up/conditioning exercises at the start of a class, in the way that modern practitioners engage in Uchikomi.

    One immediately noticeable aspect of the kata is the adoption by both exponents of the Jigotai posture. It is from this low hip posture that all movements are initiated in the Go no Kata. Jigotai can be seen in many older pictures of Kodokan Judo, and is still preserved in the current Kodokan throwing techniques (Nage no Kata), such as Sumikaeshi. Jigotai is especially important in developing hip and thigh strength. The use of this posture in the kata allows the use of the hips as the strength basis for the pushing and pulling actions, rather than relying on the shoulders. The late 9th dan judo great, Sakamoto Fusataro, noted that this posture is ideal for developing the correct balance of will, energy, and strength that is necessary for the correct application of movement and technique. Incidentally, the concept of harmonizing these three elements - will, energy, and strength - in action is a fundamental teaching of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, one of the jujutsu traditions upon which Kano based his judo.

    Another interesting aspect of the Go no Kata is the avoidance of gripping the opponent's clothing. (It should be noted that the sleeves of the early judo tops would only reach down to the elbows, and pant legs only down to the knees.) All the techniques in the kata are functional no matter what the apparel, whether a modern type of judogi or no clothing at all. This obviously contributes to the combative efficiency of the techniques.

    Under the guidance of Ochiai sensei, the Go no Kata are at present being reintroduced to modern practitioners through courses held by the Doyukai. Ochiai sensei also intends to publish an instructional book on the Go no Kata in the near future. However, it is doubtful that the kata will ever become one required for Kodokan grading. Interestingly, a video made of Ochiai sensei demonstrating the Go no Kata had to copied over 50 times to fill the demand by Japanese judo teachers and students for information on the reemergence of this piece of Judo history.

    The Go no Kata is of great historical importance, and should be of special interest to modern practitioners of Kodokan Judo. It offers an unique glimpse into the transition from -jutsu to do through which many Japanese combative arts passed.

    In a future in-depth article on the Go no Kata, I intend to examine the kata more closely, introducing important figures involved in its preservation. Further, I will hypothesize on why the kata were developed by Kano Jigoro, ad why then it was almost lost to later generations. "

    - HOP-LITE
    Newsletter of the International Hoplology Society
    No.8 Fall 1999
    pp 1-2.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

  7. #7
    MarkF Guest

    Default

    I don't know what to say, Chris. Thank you.


    Mark

  8. #8
    MarkF Guest

    Default

    Hey, aren't those ten throws the original ten of the first nage no kata (except for kata guruma which replaced tsuritoshi) of 1884 to 1887? Changes were made after this, but there were ten in the original kata and this looks mightily familiar.

    I am wondering why seoionage is referred to twice, but if this is an error, perhaps tsuriotoshi was in the original kata?


    Mark

    Sorry, I didn't mean to hijack the thread, it just hit me, and I was asked recently for them.
    Last edited by MarkF; 27th May 2005 at 17:39.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    1,010
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Great information. I tried to get the person who performed it here in the Netherlands to allow me to attend one of his training hours. At the moment they are only teaching it to people in their own dojo.

    My main problem is; even if I see them perform it and they teach me, how will I know if it is even close to the original kata?

    The article above was certainly interesting. Does anyone have some extra money and is willing to pay for my trip to the kodokan ?
    Rogier van der Peijl

    REAL SCOTSMEN WEAR KILTS because sheep can hear a zipper at 500 yards!

    Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
    Ah, what a cutie, Rogier. I'll bet a lot of ladies in Netherlands are mourning because you are out of circulation now!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Posts
    511
    Likes (received)
    3

    Default

    Hi Rogier,

    "Someone here in The Netherlands performed the go-no-kata."

    But then who was performing what exactly and where?

    I know... questions, questions.

    Best Regards,

    Johan Smits

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    1,010
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    http://www.sportschoolmuilwijk.nl/main.htm check under sporten --> judo --> nieuws

    for the english speakers here.... sorry... it's in Dutch.

    As for the article; it mentions the possibility of an instructional booklet and there being a video. Do we know anyone on this forum who does judo in Japan or has ties to the Kodokan?
    Rogier van der Peijl

    REAL SCOTSMEN WEAR KILTS because sheep can hear a zipper at 500 yards!

    Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
    Ah, what a cutie, Rogier. I'll bet a lot of ladies in Netherlands are mourning because you are out of circulation now!

  12. #12
    MarkF Guest

    Default

    In this link is another discussion of the Go No Kata, using the same article Kit posted, and information from two questionable sources, Steven Cunningham and George Parulski. This is one of the reasons I do not trust much of the history written on Judoinfo.com .

    http://judoinfo.com/gonokata.htm

    I had heard of a demo performing the Go No Kata in 1999 or 2000 (performed a few years before, but I could never verify the authenticity). Even after reading, and looking into the Hop-Lite article, it reads differently from other descriptions of this Kata, and if Mifune evolved this kata into one of his own, we may be speaking of several kata, the original may not ever be known for sure.

    Also, Kano, when demonstrating in the late 1870s or early 1880s, to, amongst others, US President U.S. Grant, he also spoke of the Go No waza, and demonstrating it as an escape from a wrist lock, calling it force against force.

    Anyway, here is the link. I have read Parulski's descriptions and it is almost assuredly made up as he went along and Mr. Cunningham, well, according to some he is "the real deal," however, he also recognized Parulski's ASCJ or American Society of Classical Judoka and the *Dai Nippon* Seibukan Budo/bugei kai which I can assure everyone is bogus. Then there is also DocRod's ISTJ or International Society of Traditional Judo, at one time something both he and Parulski dreamed up. That Cunningham, either taking the word of Parulski, or just not bothering to back up what he said of the Seibukan being the physical and esoteric arm of Traditional Judo at the Kodokan. No one at the Kodokan had ever heard of him or his organization, but this is old news.

    I have my doubts on the Hop-Lite article, too, as there is really little to back up that list of waza, as I am almost positive that kata guruma was not around at that time. It may have been added later, as it was to the nage no kata (or rather supplanted tsuri-otoshi).

    I wish I had asked Richard Bowen of the Budokwai before his death as all his work was left to the University of Bathe. I hadn't read anything from him about it, but TP leggett certainly learned it at some time.
    ********

    Rogier,

    Why not become a student at that dojo? If he is only teaching it there, you can always use the work-out, but in the meantime, write to Murata-Sensei 7-dan (or 8-dan by now) at lib@kodokan.org . Phone numbers are on the http://www.kodokan.org site . Murata is the librarian and curator of the Kodokan Museum and library, so I expect he has a nice collection of all sorts of stuff. He is a nice man to speak with, too, and speaks English well. If the demo came off, then he would know, right?

    You may even want to ask him about the orginal ten waza of the nage no kata of 1884 to 1887. Wait, I do have a source for that, I think...

    Actually, there is reference made in the book "Judo[Kyohan] by Yokoyama and Oshima (English version 1915) of the changes. Give me a little time to find it, as I have the book on disk. I am hoping it lists the ten throws, but I only remember that it is in the book, and not whether the changed throws are all there is. There is another early book by Sumotomo Arima called "Judo-Japanese Physical Culture being a further Exposition of Jujutsu and similar art-(Tokyo- Mitsumura & Co., 1908). While both were references from Dickie Bowen, the book, Judo Kyohan is always up for bid on E-bay.

    But this is how you will know if what the instructor who is teaching his own students is the real deal or not. Get the information from the Kodokan first.

    BTW: As you like the nage waza hiza guruma, that is a Kodokan technique, but it was wholly from one of the ryu that gave time to make up and standardize the Kodokan syllabus. I just read that a while ago. Check out the new thread I posted and read through it. Kim Sol has a very interesting history of the Kodokan and pretty thorough it is, though it may clash here and there of what is thought elsewhere, it is still a nice read. That article has been online since the 1990s, with many changes and updates. Very thorough, he is.


    Mark

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    1,010
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkF
    In this link is another discussion of the Go No Kata, using the same article Kit posted, and information from two questionable sources, Steven Cunningham and George Parulski. This is one of the reasons I do not trust much of the history written on Judoinfo.com .

    http://judoinfo.com/gonokata.htm
    I already read that one and it does not have much information to go on and as you said.... the sources are questionable.

    why not become a student at that dojo? If he is only teaching it there, you can always use the work-out
    They have plans to present it at one of the 'national teacher training days'. So I'll get to see it there anyway. I'd like to find out more about this by myself. Being on e-budo for all this time and reading/sifting through all the baffling and bad budo stuff has made me aware that it is important not to take everything, that people with higher rankings say, for granted.

    And isn't searching for information ourselves just another good addition to learning things about the sports/arts that we practice?

    but in the meantime, write to Murata-Sensei 7-dan (or 8-dan by now) at lib@kodokan.org . Phone numbers are on the http://www.kodokan.org site. Murata is the librarian and curator of the Kodokan Museum and library, so I expect he has a nice collection of all sorts of stuff. He is a nice man to speak with, too, and speaks English well. If the demo came off, then he would know, right?
    I'll certainly try this. This could be our best bet to at least find out what techniques the go no kata contained.

    Actually, there is reference made in the book "Judo[Kyohan] by Yokoyama and Oshima (English version 1915) of the changes. Give me a little time to find it, as I have the book on disk.
    I've got a copy of the book. They reprinted it last year. I think you can get it through Amazon.com, if not then buyubooks will certainly have it.

    But this is how you will know if what the instructor who is teaching his own students is the real deal or not. Get the information from the Kodokan first.
    As I said.... I'm not taking anything for granted anymore.
    Rogier van der Peijl

    REAL SCOTSMEN WEAR KILTS because sheep can hear a zipper at 500 yards!

    Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
    Ah, what a cutie, Rogier. I'll bet a lot of ladies in Netherlands are mourning because you are out of circulation now!

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    South Dakota
    Posts
    444
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkF
    In this link is another discussion of the Go No Kata, using the same article Kit posted, and information from two questionable sources, Steven Cunningham and George Parulski

    <snip>

    Anyway, here is the link. I have read Parulski's descriptions and it is almost assuredly made up as he went along and Mr. Cunningham, well, according to some he is "the real deal," however, he also recognized Parulski's ASCJ or American Society of Classical Judoka and the *Dai Nippon* Seibukan Budo/bugei kai which I can assure everyone is bogus. Then there is also DocRod's ISTJ or International Society of Traditional Judo, at one time something both he and Parulski dreamed up. That Cunningham, either taking the word of Parulski, or just not bothering to back up what he said of the Seibukan being the physical and esoteric arm of Traditional Judo at the Kodokan. No one at the Kodokan had ever heard of him or his organization, but this is old news.
    Do you have a citation where Steve Cunningham recognized ASCJ?

    I've met him - he does have good technique. Some of his theories are not exactly mainstream, but he does have good credentials.

    It seems that Cunningham's connection to go-no-kata comes more through is sensei (as he says, a direct student of Kano). His rememberances of his teacher's oral traditions is recounted several places (such as http://members.aol.com/Cunningham/ju01002.htm), but there are a few historical inconsistencies (one I can argue myself, a couple others have commented on).

    He also discusses go-no-kata in "The Dynamic Nature of Kata" - I've got in in PDF, not sure it's available on-line. No credit is given to the source - it may be Parulski, but then, may not.
    Peter Claussen

  15. #15
    MarkF Guest

    Default

    Hiya, Peter,

    I am sorry, but no, I don't have the link, and it probably doesn't exist anymore. Someone posted the link after it was first mentioned, probably in 2000 or 2001. I believe the article was written in 1999, and really was only an answer, apparently, to some people's question on valid judo organizations in the US.

    I have never met Cunningham nor did I mean it in anyway but informational. In the article (a short peace written with someone else, too, so it wasn't only his byline) he named the USJA/JF/JI and then said, paraphrasing "There is another organzation in the US that is part of the Dai Nippon Seibukan Budo/bugei kai or the "Greater Japan Martial Arts and Ways," the traditional arm of the Kodokan in Tokyo, Japan. Through this organization, the american version is called the American Society for Classical Judoka, etc.

    I can't write anymore without beginning to make it up, so I won't do that, but basically, it was an essay on the judo organizations of the United States and Cunningham included the ASCJ. I also got the feeling that he may simply have read something on it by Parulski and basically copied the description. I know he has a good reputation and if he had known about the questionable nature of the organization he may have done a little more research to dig up some facts about it.

    It was mentioned on the Judo-L at one time but I have forgotten if or what he said about it.

    I know he quotes or states many of the greater judoka when he was in Japan, but as you know, even he puts a disclaimer on much of that stating the information as "kuden" or orally passed to him by others, and in writing down what they told him after discussion, he probably left out much and that mistakes may be found. That disclaimer was added a few years after posting the articles.

    His lack, at times, of backing up sources is what I meant about being "questionable" but it really was meant for Mr. Parulski whose sources are sometimes unbelievable with people seemingly never to have existed.

    I will check to see if the thread was saved from major houskeeping. I'll google the article by what I know of it, also so I may come up with it.


    Mark

Page 1 of 13 1 2 3 4 5 11 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •