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Thread: go no kata reference material?

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ree
    Steve,

    What is the video called?
    Lee,

    I'll have to do a bit of rummaging around to find the name, I have lent my tape out and haven't recieved it back yet.

    Johan Smits might have the proper name of the tape.

    Mifune showed a technique from hanza handachi, where the tori is in seiza and the tori approaches and kicks to the tori's head, The leglock from Gokui Jodan Tachiai no.4 (won't name the kata online) is used to secure the uke.

  2. #47
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    The tape may be from a French company.
    In the serie: L'age d'or du Judo - Maitres de Judo, Kyuzo Mifune, 10e dan
    Le Maitre de Judo le plus prestigieux du Kodokan.

    From the back: This archive film, transponed from 8mm to video...black and white, silent, 66 minutes.

    I think it is the film (quite famous) in which Mifune sensei uses a ball to explain groundtechniques.

    I had no idea the techniques from the goshin jitsu part were from or based on Tenjin Shinyo-ryu.

    But while on the subject I have a question. From what I understand Kodokan Judo is mostly based on Tenjin Shinyo-ryu, the influence from Kito-ryu is probably not much more than the Koshiki no kata.

    Now it has been a very long time since I practiced the kime no kata and not on a very high level, my teachers at that point were good men but that is the truth.
    Now my question is this:

    Zanshin plays a very important role in classical jujutsu, also in Tenjin Shinyo-ryu. But in kime no kata (as explained by Steve Delaney somewhere else, the techniques are adapted from Tenjin Shinyo-ryu techniques) I do not see a moment in which the zanshin becomes very apparent.
    Now either, this is because my training is lacking or because it is left out of the kata.
    If it is the first, tell me (sniff) if it is last I wonder why would Kano sensei leave such an important aspect of self defence out of the main kata for self defence from the Kodokan?

    In case I have been missing a point please enlighten me.

    Best regards,

    Johan Smits

  3. #48
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    Zanshin and Metsuke (eye combat using focused vision in combination with peripheral vision) are two qualities in kodokan kata in the west that I don't see much of.

    It could be that some teachers did not transmit this to their foreign students, that some students could have forgotten these very important points of the kata in favour of the actual physical techniques or that it's just bad dojo habit.

    In the old days, when judoka were expected to do more than one budo (Kodokan used to also hold Karate, kendo, iaido, aikido and koryu classes), these qualities would probably be very prevalent.

  4. #49
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    Thank you very much Steve!

    So it is important and it should be present. My former judo teachers never mentioned it. I quess they assumed zanshin would develop instantly after sufficient training the techniques. I also don't see much of what you mention in published material in English. Zanshin is mentioned, usually to be found in the Japanese/English terms but that is about it.

    The oldest material I have on kime no kata is in the " illustrated kodokan judo" you can see clearly the differences in the execution of techniques when compared to the edition they did in the eighties or nineties (Kodokan Judo by Jigoro Kano). I quess you can see influence of the older jujutsu styles in the way they executed the kata. Maybe the photo's in the illustrated Kodokan judo are from the '30s or so.

    Do you know if there is any material published on kime no kata in Japanese pre-WWII ?

    Best regards,

    Johan Smits

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    Here is the video, available now on DVD:

    http://budogu.com/shopsite_sc/store/...roduct508.html

    Its called Shingi Mifune Judan.

    Contains the aforementioned kata, nagewaza, newaza, the illustration with the ball, randori, etc.

    Quite fascinating.

    Interesting point re: zanshin and metsuke. I asked our instructor about that point several times, at different times, during kata instruction and he always brushed it off and said there was no special focus in these areas.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hissho

    Interesting point re: zanshin and metsuke. I asked our instructor about that point several times, at different times, during kata instruction and he always brushed it off and said there was no special focus in these areas.
    I guess it depends on the teacher eh? Does your instructor mainly focus on randori?

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    Yes, but he's a strong proponent of kata - making at least an hour available for kata practice every day before regular class. No one is forced to do kata, but it is becoming more popular.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hissho
    Yes, but he's a strong proponent of kata - making at least an hour available for kata practice every day before regular class. No one is forced to do kata, but it is becoming more popular.
    Interesting that he brushes off two very important (if not vital) points of sotai kata.

  9. #54
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    Maybe what we see here is part due to the fact that judo has been taught -from an early stage in it's development - in the West as a sport.
    In the beginning self-defence was stressed but on a very basic level. None of the selfdefence books I know of ( from that period) tells about awareness or goes beyond the explanations of techniques.

    I would be surprised if most of the teachers I know would not think of zanshin as a by-product in stead of something essential to the kata.
    (maybe they shoudl have taught us better??)

    On the other hand there are still people who think kata are fighting techniques instead of methods to develop certain attitudes/reactions.

    But then maybe the way we see kata (we're talking about judo) is a bit to onesided. If I understand Steve correctly, Kano sensei developed the kime no kata mostly out of techniques from the Tenjin Shinyo-ryu, he did this so to speak to show his teachers how well he understood their jujutsu.
    What he did was, he created a self-defence kata for that particular period for that particular place. That's all he did.
    Funny that we run after the product he came up with instead of look deeper and search along the principles.

    And it's a bad day at the office.

    Best regards,

    Johan Smits

  10. #55
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    Just a quick word. The link Hissho send is indeed the video I was talking about. But then the Kodokan Goshinjutsu is NOT the Kodokan Goshinjutsu no kata as created in the '50's. It is either Mifune's goshinjutsu or the Kodokan goshinjutsu from that period.
    I have no ties to budogu whatsoever but the tape is a MUST for judoka and jujutsu-practitioners (never found out if jujutsuka as a word is correct).

    Best,

    Johan Smits

  11. #56
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    There is no such thing as Goshin Jutsu no Kata. The kata is simply called Kodokan Goshin Jutsu.
    Dr Llyr C Jones (ジョーンズ)

  12. #57
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    I checked (just to be sure) but you are right. It is a kata but the proper name is Kodokan Goshin Jutsu.

    Best regards,

    Johan Smits

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hissho
    Here is the video, available now on DVD:

    http://budogu.com/shopsite_sc/store/...roduct508.html

    Its called Shingi Mifune Judan.

    Contains the aforementioned kata, nagewaza, newaza, the illustration with the ball, randori, etc.

    Quite fascinating.

    Interesting point re: zanshin and metsuke. I asked our instructor about that point several times, at different times, during kata instruction and he always brushed it off and said there was no special focus in these areas.
    I just got my copy last week and can't recommend it high enough. I mostly do aiki arts, but my teacher has us work on a fair ammount of judo kihon. I've seen an older VHS of ths same material, but the DVD has about 50% more material: newaza, kansetsuwaza, goshin-jutsu... It also has english subtitles which are nice for reference, but they tend to block some of the leg/foot movements a bit. Also, if you get this DVD, it auto-plays the main feature, a ~60 minute documentary on Mifune Sensei, but if you hit the menu button you can get to an even older ~20 minute documentary from when Mifune was 'only' kudan. He demonstrates a lot of the same material and the same goshin jutsu series, his movements are nearly identical between the two movies, but you can see that he's more muscular (and has black hair!) in the older video. It's not a cheap video, but it's well worth the money for anyone who does Japanese Budo (IMHO).

    (Hey Kit, don't know if you remember me, we met breifly at Toby Threadgill's seminar in Portland a couple years back.)
    Christian Moses
    **Certified Slimy, Moronic, Deranged and Demented Soul by Saigo-ha Daito Ryu!**
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    Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
    Tuesday Night Bad Budo Club (TM)

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonsey
    There is no such thing as Goshin Jutsu no Kata. The kata is simply called Kodokan Goshin Jutsu.

    Hiya, LC,

    Just to clarify, the formal waza of the Kodokan Goshin Jutsu is a kata, but you are correct that it is not called nor referred to as Goshin Jutsu no kata nor Kodokan Goshin jutsu no kata, a mistake I often make.

    But, saying there is no such thing, is not exactly right, either. It exists, is just is not worded that way. Just recently, John Cornish demonstrated and taught a brief seminar on this kata and it was referred to as "Kata" by London England's Budokwai. Again, the wording (I cannor recall how it was worded but a search of this and/or the aikido forum, and/or the seminar announcements forum should yield further information.


    It also would be interesting to know, LC, who or what you are quoting, IF you are quoting at all. A few years back (probably 2000 or 2001), I had written to the Kodokan, specifically to Murata-Sama, 7-dan and curator of the Kodokan Library and Museum at the Kodokan Institute in Tokyo. I forget what I was asking or the original purpose of writing, but I wrote a friend afterward, and put in the subject line what the email contained and abbreviated Kodokan as KDK. In answer, this friend wrote back and in a PS said that the "official" abbreviation of the Kodokan was KDN or something close to that, if that is not correct. When I replied and asked how it is that the abbreviation is "official or not official." the response was that it was Mr. Murata's abbriation of KDN and for that alone, was reason enough to accept it. I was asking out of curiousity, but one cannot expect to be unequivically correct with every single fact, important or not, all the time. Being right is not always the right thing to be.

    The Kodokan Goshin Jutsu may not be called a kata seems to be more a technicality in wording than in fact. I do believe, however, that the Kodokan Goshin Jutsu technique to be more of a system than a kata, mainly to be done as effectively as it can for people who cannot use it practically as taught or learned. I think it is meant to change with time, and is why it really isn't the basics as it was being changed almost as soon as it was first published, and in fact, was changed during a three year period after first publication in 1956.

    While the basics naturally change with the practitioner, I believe that this is a "system" changing with every performance of it. It must, as defense in general changes.


    Two cents worth but please give me some change.



    Mark

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    Hi Mark,

    When I wrote that Kano sensei created nothing more than a self-defence kata for that place and time with kime no kata, I more or less had your comments on Kodokan Goshin Jutsu in mind. When you consider judo and jujutsu living arts then it is nothing but normal that they change.
    They should be changed by those who are qualified to do so.

    I have found in my notes (can't give a reference because I don't know where it comes from) that Kawaishi sensei introduced Kyuzo Mifune's Gonosen no Kata (counters) in Europe and HIS OWN VERSION OF GO NO KATA (kata of strikes).
    This still does not make clear if Kawaishi sensei got some Kodokan kata confused but it does tell us Kawaishi sensei created a go no kata.
    (Something he was perfectly entitled to do when you ask me).

    From Muilwijk's website I understand he indeed based his Go no Kata on the one from Kawaishi. He did research but I have no idea if what he came up with resembles Kawaishi's kata.
    As soon as his book is out I will buy it.
    I don't know Mifune's or Kawaishi's background. From Steve Delaney I got the impression that Mifune had a background in Tenjin Shinyo-ryu. If so and Kawaishi was his student that could explain Kawaishi's interest/expertise in atemi-waza, I think Tenjin Shinyo-ryu is or was famous for that.
    In my method of self defence Kawaishi gives a lot of info on atemi-waza.

    That's all the change from me for now.

    Best regards,

    Johan Smits

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