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Thread: Kukishin-ryu bujutsu / Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho

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    Default Kukishin-ryu bujutsu / Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho

    Today, I saw a Anime-TV series called samurai for the very first time.
    What's this got to do with Koryű, you say?
    Well, the opponent was using the ô-gama to fight. Now I wonder, how known ist the ô-gama in other Koryű besides the Kukishinden Ryű?
    I never heared of it outside KKSR...
    Achim Steigert
    Bujinkan Te-Nage Dōjō
    Bujinkan Budō Taijutsu
    Shodan - translated: beginners grade

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    Meik Skoss Guest

    Default o-gama or o-kama?

    A. Steigert wrote: "Today, I saw an nnime-TV series called "Samurai" for the very first time. What's this got to do with koryu, you say? Well, the opponent was using the ô-gama to fight. Now I wonder, how well known is the ô-gama in other koryű, besides the Kukishinden-ryű? I never heared of it outside KKSR..."

    Asayama Ichiden-ryu uses a rather large sickle in some of its techniques. Dunno how they refer to the weapon, though. It would seem more logical to pronounce it with a "k" than a "g," but that changes the meaning completely. An o-kama's a guy who's a tad light in his zori (to coin a phrase). He wears simply *divine* pink and lavender kimono for training and has really exquisite taste in such martial arts as tea ceremony, interior decorating, flower arrangement, incense appreciation and the like.

    If I recall correctly, one can study the ways of the o-kama in Shinjuku 2-chome. Although I never asked for a blow-by-blow (you should pardon the expression) description of his training routine, a guy who lived in the flat next door to me when I still lived in Shinjuku used to hang out there (I guess in more ways than one). He said it was... "colorful."

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    Meik! Behave!
    Earl Hartman

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    shokku ya!!!

    Meik!! Run while you still can!! Abunai yo!!

    I'll remember the "zori" line for future reference.
    Meccha omoroi!!!!!

    Kennin,

    Check out *HIBUKI NO SUBETE NO WAKARU GA HON*. I recall seeing some pretty wicked looking 5ft. long (haft) kusari-gama. You might get a hint of where to look by reading that chapter.

    Regards,

    CKohalyk

    [Edited by CKohalyk on 01-30-2001 at 06:23 PM]

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    Achim

    I have not seen an O-gama in the Kukishinden ryu. The Kukishiin ryu once used the Kusarigama, that is now lost in the Kukishin Ryu. The Kusarigama and O-gama are not in Kukishinden Ryu.

    That is unless I have been mislead somewhere

    As far as I am aware there is no Kama, O-Gama/O-Kama in any Bujinkan school.

    This needs looking into
    Paul Richardson - Shidoshi
    Bujinkan Lincoln Dojo

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    Default Okama sensei

    Shan't mention any names, but there is a minor Hollywood celebrity who has parlayed a cursory exposure to budo into some kind of career in the talkies. Having acquired the bulk of his spoken Japanese courtesy of female acquaintances in Japan, his speech is somewhat onnarashii. Consequently, I have heard him referred to in Japan several times as "Okama sensei."

    Those interested in Nihongo should note that "okama" is slang. More polite is "danshoku" or even more so--and what you hear in more polite society in Kyoto/Nara: "kagema-ya."

    Cordially, and with feet planted firmly in his zori--not that there's anything wrong with those who don't,

    Dave Lowry
    Dave Lowry

  7. #7
    Meik Skoss Guest

    Default is it a "g" or a "k" and does it matter?

    !!DUDE!!

    Where'n the *h--l* do you learn words like that, anyway? In my twenty-four years living in the Land of the Sinking Yen, I always wanted to learn stuff like that, but the bozos (or is it bozi?) I ran with no akamai how fo' speak li' dat. It has to be some special part of your teacher's curriculum, ne? Am I right, or'm I right? Ya know what I'm sayin' here, Vinnie?

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    OK, so I'm curious:

    If it is a Kusari-Ogama, does that mean he is into whips and chains?

    Inquiring minds want to know...

    -John Sims

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    I wonder what this says about the recent quality of conversation here on E-Budo, but this is by far the most interesting discussion to take place in Koryu area in quite awhile. In keeping with the thread, I have always wondered if those large studded tetsubo one often see's in old prints weren't somehow related to this sort of training as well...

    Rennis Buchner


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    Um, not sure exactly what is the assembled interest here (nor, come to think of it, do I want to know), and this really isn’t my forte, but I’ve gotten a couple of requests off-list to explain the etymologies of the terms I used above.

    Danshoku. Dan is the same as in “otoko:” male. Shoku is the same as “iro:” colour. We’re all aware of the penchant of our brethern in Sumerami-kuni to use “colour” when referring to matters of a sexual nature (i.e., momoiro-yugi—“rose-coloured play” = foreplay, a term I once, at a particularly inopportune moment of my youth, confused with momodachi = hiking up one’s hakama in preparation for a fight). So, danshoku is “male colour/lust.” An oblique reference to the activity became an even more oblique term to describe the participant.

    Kagema-ya. Some Edo period taverns had “rooms in the back” to where the fellows so inclined could repair to discuss things like colours and such. The rooms—ma—were kept shadowy-dark—kage—at these places—ya—and so a kagema-ya was a place where such diversions took place. Again (I’m assuming here), the name for the place gradually came to refer to the person who frequented it.

    I think the standard term now for the activity is doseiai, but that could be dated and there’s probably more current slang. Polite old Kansai terms for it were wakashu-do or jaku-do (both mean roughly, the Way of young men).

    Cordially, and feeling the sudden urge to spend the afternoon watching Joan Chen movies,
    Dave Lowry

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    HI all

    I think this talk is suited for those oriental girls on canal street in Amsterdam (please note i do not frequent there - merely as a tourist)

    I think the Large Kusari Gama i think John Sims refers to is similar to the one on the cover of Hatsumis history and traditions book. It has a dodgy siloette of a ninja with a huge Kusari gama.

    That I believe is from Koto Ryu and is called Yoroi Gama. I will point out for any bujinkan people that this is hearsay from a Hatsumis classes in Japan last year

    As for Daves wondeful Japanese flowery talk. I know a few girls I want to try that on. <lol>
    Paul Richardson - Shidoshi
    Bujinkan Lincoln Dojo

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    Originally posted by poryu
    (...)I think the Large Kusari Gama i think John Sims refers to is similar to the one on the cover of Hatsumis history and traditions book. It has a dodgy siloette of a ninja with a huge Kusari gama.

    That I believe is from Koto Ryu and is called Yoroi Gama. (...)
    There are two photos on page 139 of "Ninjutsu, History and Tradition", showing Hatsumi with what is described in the text as an "oh-gama".
    Joachim Hoss
    Cologne, Germany

    Occam's Razor - A weapon for true martial artists.

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    Hi Achim

    Yesit is in History and traditions but where doeit say it is from Kukishinden Ryu.

    That book was written at a time when Hatsumi says that everything is Togakure Ryu.

    Manaka stated that there was no Kusarigama in the Kukishinden Ryu or any other Bujinkan Ryuha. The cloest thing is the Kyoketsu Shoge which is Togakure Ryu.

    Hatsumi uses lots of things that are not in the bujinkan to help explain his teachings.

    The Kusari Fundo (manrikigusari) is not to be found officially in any of the Bujinkan schools. Yet he highly ratesits uses after his training with Nawa Yumio in his younger days. that is why he suggests we learn it a little.

    He also demonstrates some use of one of the Shikomi Zue. In the Araki Ryu and Kiraku Ryu it is call Chigiriki.

    Depending in which book you are looking at and the refernce it is not always to be taken as fact.

    I will be in Duisburg teaching at the Bujinkan Dojo there in march maybe we could meet up

    Paul Richardson - Shidoshi
    Bujinkan Lincoln Dojo

  15. #14
    Meik Skoss Guest

    Default shikomizue = chigiriki (not!)

    P. Richardson writes: "He also demonstrates some use of one of the [s]hikomi[z]ue. In the Araki-ryu and Kiraku-ryu it's call[ed] [c]higiriki."

    Nope. A shikomizue is a (walking) stick/cane with a what is generally a single-edged blade concealed within it. While I am not overly familiar with what Hatsumi and his erstwhile MIB call their weapons, that's what is generally understood by the term. A chigiriki is a flail-like weapon, mounted on a haft that is generally about 130 cm. in length. A Kiraku-ryu chigiriki is, indeed, made in shikomi fashion, with the chain and weight lying concealed until deployed, but that's not the way an Araki-ryu chigiriki is constructed, at least according to the weapons I've seen of the three Araki-ryu lines that remain extant.

    A question to all of you out there in cyberbudoland: why do so many people capitalize Japanese words when they write in English? If one is trying to emphasize a non-English word, why not just use italics, bold-face, or underlining? I mean, like, duhhh..., it's not as though a person on E-Budo isn't going to recognize the word as being from over yonder or nuthin', right?

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    Dave:

    Thanx for the etymology lesson. I had a feeling that the "kagema-ya" thing had something to so with a "place of shadows".

    As for the "danshoku" thing, I'm glad it was that "shoku" and not....you know....the (ahem) other one.

    Not that there's anything wrong with that.
    Earl Hartman

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