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Thread: Ki/Chi/Prana & Meditation

  1. #76
    Richard Tolson Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Cook
    I agree that we need to get away from pointless theory. In the past I have called for properly conducted tests of internal energy. Instead of student compliance what is required is a genuine series of tests to investigate the nature and scope of this 'energy'.
    It can be tested by:-
    1. entering something like the Kyukoshinkai knockdown championships/Thai boxing matches. When this has been done the ch'i masters do not do very well
    2. attempt to lift heavy weights to duplicate or exceed the strength produced by muscular contraction. Again the ch'i masters do not do well.
    3. Enter a major judo championship/wrestling event and by rooting the ch'i prevent throws from occuring.
    4. Strike/press a measuring device to see if ch'i can improve the power of a strike.
    These are all martial aspects, so it should not be difficult for a martial artist trained in internal energy to display it.
    Will anyone do these things?
    Harry Cook
    Probably not. Once again you confuse Chinese folk tales, the urban legends of the past, with the reality of why chi training is practiced. I do not know of any modern qigong or Chinese martial arts practitioner who puts stock in these stories. So why do you continue to want us to perform things that have nothing to do with our training?
    There are plenty of martial artists who perform circus type stunts for audience entertainment, but we are not them.
    Since you don't even understand the concept of "root" in chi exercises, as revealed by your challenge (#3), it would be best if you stopped your attempt to discredit us until you understand the concepts you are talking about. And let me give you a hint, quoting others will not give you that understanding. You must experience it yourself, then attempt to qualify it in your own terms. Until then you cannot even understand the concepts enough to form a rational set of tests to quantify or qualify the essence of internal energy.
    As an ordained minister I would have the same problem trying to convince an atheist of the reality of God(s). Right now there are few means of scientifically proving the existence of chi or God. That doesn't negate the existence of either. At this point the evidence is intimately linked to the experience of the believer and the effect of the power.
    Last edited by Richard Tolson; 30th June 2005 at 12:04.

  2. #77
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    I trained in T'ai Chi Ch'uan with Rose Li in the early 1970s when I was a student of Chinese and I asked her about these ideas. Many of the books on the internal dwell on these ideas, but you say they are not really relevant to martial arts training.
    Ok, so why don't you enlighten us as to the point of ch'i development. What in your opinion is the aim of developing ch'i? How does such training fit in with the martial aspects of whatever style an individual does.
    As for modern practitioners not believing in these tales, have you read Wolfe Lowenthal's Gateway to the Miraculous? Ch'eng Man Ch'ing apparently believed that the Boxers had the ability to withstand bullets.
    Harry Cook
    Last edited by Harry Cook; 30th June 2005 at 14:47.

  3. #78
    Richard Tolson Guest

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    I trained in T'ai Chi Ch'uan with Rose Li in the early 1970s when I was a student of Chinese and I asked her about these ideas.

    So how long did you train? What style of Tai Chi Ch'uan? Did Ms. Li teach any qigong training? Did you specifically train in any qigong? If so, how long?

    Many of the books on the internal dwell on these ideas, but you say they are not really relevant to martial arts training.

    Can you name one that is not just relating Chinese folk tales?

    Ok, so why don't you enlighten us as to the point of ch'i development. What in your opinion is the aim of developing ch'i? How does such training fit in with the martial aspects of whatever style an individual does.

    That is not the point of this thread. The thread was started to find others who trained in this manner. Besides, the answer to your questions lies partly in a former post of mine in this thread. Any deeper discussion than that would take much longer than the few minutes I have a day to devote to this discussion.
    BTW, my opinions are my own. I speak for myself, not Chinese martial arts practitioners as a whole. The thread was started so individuals could state their opinions. Unfortunately, you keep highjacking the thread.

    As for modern practitioners not believing in these tales, have you read Wolfe Lowenthal's Gateway to the Miraculous?

    I believe I did peruse it when it first came out, but did not purchase it. Apparently, I didn't find it of interest. But OK, that is one practitioner. How many people does he claim to speak for?
    Of course some people do believe these stories, but some people also still believe the earth is flat.

    Ch'eng Man Ch'ing apparently believed that the Boxers had the ability to withstand bullets.
    Harry Cook


    People have believed many foolish things. I would have to say that internal energy certainly flunked that test. So apparently, as I said previously, circus feats or "supernatural feats" should not be attempted in the name of chi training.
    Last edited by Richard Tolson; 1st July 2005 at 02:05.

  4. #79
    Richard Tolson Guest

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    Oops, I ran out of edit time.

    I trained in T'ai Chi Ch'uan with Rose Li in the early 1970s when I was a student of Chinese and I asked her about these ideas.

    BTW, what was Ms. Li's opinion on chi? At least that might be relevant to the thread.

  5. #80
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    I cannot believe you have never heard of Rose Li. She was the only female student of Teng Yun Feng.
    As for chi, she wasn't too impressed by the claims made.
    You keep telling us what ch'i isn't. I don't expect you to write a book here, but try to give a few pointers on what you think ch'i is and the conversation can proceed. You say I kepp hijacking the thread, but unless we know what we mean when we talk about ch'i no useful conversation/debate is possible.
    Harry Cook

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    May I ask. Are you the same Richard Tolson referred to in an earlier discussion here in reference to Arashi Ryu?
    Harry Cook

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    I cannot believe you have never heard of Rose Li. She was the only female student of Teng Yun Feng.
    As for chi, she wasn't too impressed by the claims made.
    Funny, this is exactly what I've been saying all along.

    I studied Liu Feng Chun bagua, and currently study Wu taiji and Hao taiji, all of which is tied in with Rose Li's background.

    http://www.powerofbalance.com/whoweare1.htm

    Here is the source for Rose's lineage.
    Last edited by Exorcist_Fist; 2nd July 2005 at 01:11.
    Daniel Madar

  8. #83
    Richard Tolson Guest

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    I studied Liu Feng Chun bagua, and currently study Wu taiji and Hao taiji, all of which is tied in with Rose Li's background.

    Daniel,
    It sounds like you have a wide M.A. background. Was qigong taught as a part of any of these arts?
    BTW, thank you for bringing the discussion back on topic.

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    Tai Chi and bagua are considered by some to be martial forms of qi gong. Most systems include some supplementary exercises for qi gong, focusing on developement of tendon strength, flexibility, etc. In my experience, qi gong focuses on some form of physical development along with the "mental" or "Spiritual" aspects.
    Daniel Madar

  10. #85
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    BTW, since Harry mentioned his teacher, I'll mention mine.

    Yao Pei Jing was one of Hao Shao Ru's few disciples. When his first choice for successor died, she was reportedly chosen to represent the style, until she temporarily disappeared during the cultural revolution. She Studied Chen taiji under Feng Zhi Qiang when he was in Shanghai, and when he left to return to Beijing, he asked her to teach his classes. She originally, as I understand it, started taiji learning from Mah Yueh Liang, and was also one of his disciples. They remained in close contact until his death. She learned bagua from some guy whose name I could never spell, in the chingwoo association in Shanghai, and went through baishi with him as well. She started cma at the age of 30 or so, having previously studied a family system of qi gong from childhood.

    If you want to read more about her, there is an article in the bagua journal.
    Daniel Madar

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    Default Ki or Kokyu

    One could have easily seen the effectiveness of "ki" or "kokyu" at the recent Aiki Expo put on by Stanley Pranin here in Southern California. Kenji Ushiro sensei is quite amazing and demonstrated various kokyu exercises with people who took is classes. He also talked about sochin kata being the root of everything he was demonstrating.

    From what I saw and experienced kokyu and ki are "real" in that they work against and for people. O-Sensei once said that Aikido is about softening the joints. Ushiro sensei also talks about the softness of joints and how training with barbells will actually hinder the development of kokyu power. He also said that physical power declines from the early 20's but kokyu power can continually increase with age.

    Ushiro sensei is 56 and had no trouble handling anyone he picked as uke at the seminar. He demonstrated the body action commonly shown by traditional Japanese karate sparring champions and then showed the difference when one used "kokyu" power.

    My understanding at this point is that kokyu power is generated through lack of tension in the joints and unified body movement. Normally people generate power by twisting the hips or accelerating one part of the body faster than another. Kokyu movement is "unified" in that everything moves simultaneously. This is one reason samurai swung their arms in phase with their legs (meaning that the left hand and left foot would swing forward at the same time).

    One thing is certain. In order to achieve the body state required for performing techniques with "kokyu" one must unlearn the body's natural desire to push with shoulder and/or specific muscle power. "Kokyu" power works on people because their natural reaction is to push against a force but when they try to push someone who has trained their body to move everywhere all at once, such as Ushiro sensei, they move in such a way that the reflex programming of the person who's pushing can't cope with.

    One of the problems with "believing" in kokyu is that there are very, very few people who know it, can do it and show it in public. There is really nothing "mystical" about kokyu or ki (at least the martial arts version) except for the fact that it's rare and appears totally fake to the outside observer. The challenge in learning it is that one has to unlearn ones habitual way of moving the body, it's really hard to do and it seems that very few people actually know, understand and teach it.
    David Bunnell

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