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Thread: New Scroll - Pants!

  1. #1
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    Angry New Scroll - Pants!

    Ok, have you all recieved your new scroll? What do you all think?

    My personal view - cheap, tacky, nasty, looks like it's been bought from a local pound shop.

    I could not believe my eyes when I first saw it, and I'm expected to rei it? The thing is bloody awful, you guys just wait till CityShorinji comes back from hols... I'm sure Adrian will be able to express himself much better than I.

    I would have loved to have been at the meeting when all the samples came in and this was the one that best described this most fantastic martial art we all practice.

    Yes, this scroll will take us forward to the future.
    Sean Dixie

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    I've been wondering about the scroll... hadn't heard anything until now.

    So the Manji based on Kaiso's caligraphy is replaced? By the souen double-rings?
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
    I'll think of a proper sig when I get a minute...

    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

  3. #3
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    Default New Scroll

    Haven't seen the new scroll, but I think it is funny how people would be concerned about the look of the scroll. Isn't it the words that are important, rather the type of paper they are written on? I, for one, would rei to the Dokkun written on the back of a kleenex (maybe even a used one if that was all that was available).
    Dax Ross
    San Diego, CA

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    There's no dokkun on it, nothing spiritual at all. Just a corperate logo on the cheapest gold plastic ticks you can imagine. Oh and don't forget the little copywrite 'c'.
    Sean Dixie

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    ive seen it... yes, it does have that 'disney' feel to it, and the size just doesnt compare with the old manji scroll... are they keeping this scroll as it is in the forseeable future??
    Felix Lee

    -"Your Prawn techniqiue is no match against my Shrimp style haha!!"
    -"but chopstick pressure point fighting beats them all..."

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    Time once more, for the Leaders of Dojo to be fully informed and advised on ALL the facts they may need to be able to explain to their Kenshi the why/how/etc with regards to the scroll.

    Anyone able to present the authoritative guide on here? Or is that intellectual property limited as a "Teaching"? Lots of disgruntled gnat-bites could be avoided if the Kenshi were adequately informed.
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
    I'll think of a proper sig when I get a minute...

    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

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    Thumbs down

    What do you mean Sean, we have to wear scroll-pants now as well?

    I'm not surprised the new scroll is awful. Although I haven't seen it yet, I have already made clear to Sensei Mizuno that I am not at all comfortable with the idea of saluting a corporate badge. The fact that it appears to be tat with quality unworthy of kiss-me-quick beach resort standard only serves to underline my resistance.

    I suggest that as Hombu are hell-bent on replacing everything, we should go the whole hog and replace gassho rei with the ancient greeting of the full moon, a symbolic traditional whereby two large, and in the case of some, overlapping expanses of flesh are presented in a unique spirit of utter derision and contempt. I'll leave it to the rest of you to decide where to place the R and its circle.
    A-D-R-I-A-N (Space) S-I-M-P-S-O-N, just in case you need it spelled out, big brother.

    Whatever happened to deep throat?

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    I haven’t seen the new scroll as yet. I guess if it is as bad as reported I will have to keep reminding myself it is Shorinji Kempo, and the memory of Doshin So that I’m paying my respect to, not just something hanging on the wall.
    Cheers
    Colin Linz

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    Quote Originally Posted by dax
    Haven't seen the new scroll, but I think it is funny how people would be concerned about the look of the scroll. Isn't it the words that are important, rather the type of paper they are written on? I, for one, would rei to the Dokkun written on the back of a kleenex (maybe even a used one if that was all that was available).
    Dax (and David),
    it's the same as the lapel badge.

    I hung mine up at home, and the string untied itself, it fell down, and the gold ball on the end of one of the sticks fell off. Unfortunately I was able to mend it.
    David Dunn
    Cambridge Dojo
    BSKF

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    I would love to know what was going through the WSKO committee’s minds when they designed the new symbol, characters, and scroll. It seems the image is moving towards cheap and tacky, rather than deep and meaningful. I have also been wondering what demographic WSKO have identified as their customer base, as much of the new corporate identity seems aimed at a very young market sector.
    Cheers
    Colin Linz

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn
    I hung mine up at home, and the string untied itself, it fell down, and the gold ball on the end of one of the sticks fell off. Unfortunately I was able to mend it.
    Boring moment at work - boy did that cheer me up!
    Sean Dixie

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    Gassho,
    This is a little off topic, but I have a question/observation that I think may be relevant.
    In Japan Shorinji kempo is taught on two tiers, for want of a better word. The high school and most university clubs teach it as a sporting activity much like other budo forms are taught (Kendo, Judo, Karate, sport aikido, whatever.)
    They give a cursury nod to howa, seiho etc. and concentrate on Embu, group embu and randori.
    In the privately run Branches, usually termed Doin, Shorinji Kempo is taught in the manner we have come to recognise.
    This is why in the syllabus the dan grades are differentiated (for example) between Sandan (a technical grade) and Chukenshi (a technical and philosophical grade).
    My question is have Hombu/WSKO assumed that most kenshi (and all foreign Branches) are following the 'sporting' activity? and hence it matters little what symbolises the shimpan in the dojo.
    I cannot imagine that the various Doin in Japan will swallow having the entire 'culture' of their practise not only changed (which for valid reasons may be acceptable) but downgraded. My experience of the Doin is limited to visiting the Rakuto Doin many years ago but I remember Morikawa sensei dojo as having a very spiritual (as well as martial) approach to training and cannot for one minute imagine him or his sons, and other seniors accepting a disneyfication of their art.
    So, ramblingly, my questions are, what is the feeling regarding this in Japan among the Doin, with whom we have most in common?, what are they doing about getting Hombu to realise the depth of feeling?, and to what extent is this an irreversible trend?
    I must say I find this poorly considered alteration to the shimpan scroll much more disturbing than the change in badge or dogi 'wars' that have been mentioned since this most directly impinges on the impressions of both outsiders and new students.
    Kesshu
    Paul

  13. #13
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    That very question (what do the Japanese branches think of all this?) is one that Kimpatsu has some thoughts on, being in the thick of it. I don't want to try to convey someone else's thoughts, but Tony if you're reading and want to make a contribution, I'll forward it to the thread if the moderators allow.

    Our branches are all shibu actually. WSKO branches can only be shibu, not doin, and thus aren't required to teach Kongo Zen. I think there may well be an assumption that we don't want it any other way, or more likely a prejudice that we are incapable of understanding it. I can't understand why WSKO branches can't be doin if they want to be - contingent of course on the branchmaster passing all the requisite exams and interviews.

    The manji is a (the) symbol of Shorinji Kempo. I've never had a problem with its presence on shomen. Nonetheless, it being there required explanation of what it is (manji plus dharma), and thus asked kenshi to at least think about Zen. The new scroll is just a pennant, and doesn't require an explanation, even if one may be given (I have done that in the latest BSKF newsletter). If the manji dharma kakejiku cannot be used anymore, why not at least some calligraphy like kyakka shoko, ken zen ichinyo, jiko no shiawase... Kaiso has calligraphed all of those and more, and at least we would then have to explain some aspect of tetsugaku.
    David Dunn
    Cambridge Dojo
    BSKF

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn
    WSKO branches can only be shibu, not doin, and thus aren't required to teach Kongo Zen.
    I think this should read "WSKO branches can only be shibu, not doin, and thus aren't allowed to teach Kongo Zen." What angers me is not that I am not required to teach Kongo Zen, but that I am not allowed to teach it under the new rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn
    The manji is a (the) symbol of Shorinji Kempo. I've never had a problem with its presence on shomen. Nonetheless, it being there required explanation of what it is (manji plus dharma), and thus asked kenshi to at least think about Zen. The new scroll is just a pennant, and doesn't require an explanation, even if one may be given (I have done that in the latest BSKF newsletter). If the manji dharma kakejiku cannot be used anymore, why not at least some calligraphy like kyakka shoko, ken zen ichinyo, jiko no shiawase... Kaiso has calligraphed all of those and more, and at least we would then have to explain some aspect of tetsugaku.
    I agree. At a very basic level, I simply cannot understand why something in Kaiso's own calligraphy should be banned from view. What does this imply about his legacy? At the very least, an alternative that more clearly represents our philosophy would be preferable to a corporate logo. Something in Kaiso's own calligraphy would be ideal.
    Gary Dolce
    Ann Arbor Branch
    WSKO
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    http://www.shorinjikempo.com

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn
    If the manji dharma kakejiku cannot be used anymore, why not at least some calligraphy like kyakka shoko, ken zen ichinyo, jiko no shiawase... Kaiso has calligraphed all of those and more, and at least we would then have to explain some aspect of tetsugaku.
    We can display any of the calligraphy mentioned above..... but the "central symbol [scroll]" must be the new one.......

    The scroll is not that bad...... from the "dojo floor" you can't really tell how "tacky" the quality is..... the symbol is really just that..... a symbol.... it is what is behind the symbol that is of most importance...... focus on that and not on the materials used.
    Steve Williams

    Harrow Branch.
    Shorinji Kempo UK.
    www.ukskf.org




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